New Tesla M3P or Used S P90D

[nickpan]

Hi EV Pals!

As per the title - I'm a long term i3 driver looking to "upgrade" to a Tesla.

Both cars are priced are similarly priced at c. £50k.

The M3P has the latest Tesla tech and a 4Y Tesla new car warranty on its side. I also value the minimalism of the cockpit design.

The S P90D is a 2015 car so somewhat dated now. Full Tesla warranty has expired but has the balance of the 8Y Tesla battery and drivetrain warranty. I like the additional leg room that it offers, air suspension and bigger boot. It also had free super charging and doesn't suffer the luxury car tax malarkey.

Where would you guys be putting your money?

We've got our first kid on the way in May so space is an important consideration!! Having sold my 911, so is power!

Thank you

Nick

[anonymous-user]

The warranty would be very important for me, and not just the battery. £50k for a 5 year old car seems a lot, so it’d have to be the M3.

[Biggles111]

You might want to look at buying used from Tesla, so as to get a full 4 year warranty
My pick would be this; a bit more cash but gets you into a P100DL, and which still being the fastest model will arguably hold value slightly better. https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/used/5YJSB7E44GF168632

Or a P90DL (albeit odd spec for a P90D, has cloth multi pattern seats) for just over £50k https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/used/5YJSB7E49GF133195

You won't get free supercharging on a used car from Tesla, but the cash value of this is fairly limited - the warranty is of a much greater value, if you can get them to sell you a car...

[stabilio]

I had a loan Model S P75 (67 plate) for a week while my M3 had some issues fixed. M3 is a much nicer drive and I didn't really like the interior of the S very much at all. Simple things like no door bins, the big screen was lower res and much laggier and to far down and the steering wheel felt massive.
I also kept losing losing the key when putting in the centre console and it had a habit of sliding under the cup holders.
It was also way to big and wide for my liking.

The M3's boot is a decent size but the actual opening makes it feel smaller. Theres also a big area too if you lift the boot floor panel up and 3 kids in the back is no problem (one in car seat).

Model S boot is massive though and was great for carting big bits of wood home I bought so not to dirty my M3 up

[gangzoom]

nickpan said:

The S P90D is a 2015 car so somewhat dated now. Full Tesla warranty has expired but has the balance of the 8Y Tesla battery and drivetrain warranty. I like the additional leg room that it offers, air suspension and bigger boot. It also had free super charging and doesn't suffer the luxury car tax malarkey.

Stay clear of early 90 pack cars, usable kWh is barely 5-10kWh more than 75 packs but with added weight/less efficiency, and out of all the packs seem to be affected most by degradation and slowing Supercharging speeds.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-s90d...

The advice in the past was to stick with a 85 pack car, but even these are now been shown to be hiding some gremlins.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/sudden-los...

By far the best pack to get used is the 100, but prices remain high, though there is now some noise on TCM that not all 100D packs were created equal with some packs showing alot less capacity than others.

Finally buying used is always a gamble when it comes to how much SuperCharging the previous owner has done. All new Tesla's can charge at 120KW, but as some one uses more and more Supercharging the internal resistance builds up in the pack. To stop the packs from killing them selves Tesla has been slowing down SuperCharging speeds for ALL cars that hit a certain amount of SuperCharging limit. Once you hit the limit that's it, SuperCharging speed will not go over 100KW and reports of sub 80KW even on 100D packs have been reported.

The limit is also not that high on a 75 packs its about 2500kWh or 7000 miles or so of SuperCharging.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/if-you-fas...

If you don't need the size of a S and have £50K+ to spend get a new 3, if for no other reason than you don't have to wonder about been charge limited or having a 'bad' pack.

Edited by gangzoom on Monday 27th January 21:03

[Heres Johnny]

stabilio said:

I had a loan Model S P75 (67 plate) for a week ...

There has never been a P75

A facelift P90D with Ludicrous (ludicrous is the important bit) or a P100D make a pretty compelling proposition. Much faster than any Model 3, more room, more practical and look better. Buy a P90DL privately and you’ll probably get zero VED and unlimited free supercharging for life and the best part of 5 years of battery and motor warranty left with unlimited miles (unlike the M3s limited mileage warranty even on the battery).

[nickpan]

Some really valuable advice here - Thank you!

I’m edging towards a M3P based on “peace of mind” although to the last poster’s point, what month/year do you need to go for, in order to a get a “face lift” P90D or the P100?

Thank you all.

[gangzoom]

If you do go for a used S, make sure you check you don't get end up a bad 90 or 85 pack. Tesla don't warranty 'fleet' degredation, so if every 90 pack is dropping charge by 10% they don't care as your car is no worse than others.

Also do try and get a OBD scanner and check the amount of DC Rapid charging the car has done. Anyone who bought a Tesla with the view point of only keeping it a few years may have not cared about the battery, they could have DC RapidCharged it all the time, ran it from 100-0% all the time. The person who will suffer the effects of an abused battery pack will be the 2nd owner - ie You!

There are also now 85 pack owners whos cars will only charge at 50KW, still in warranty but Tesla don't care, as the battery warranty doesn't state anything about maintaining high charging state.

On a different note if you look at the Porsche Taycan thread it appears the real life range is much better than EPA rating - which is great news. Not sure on Taycan pricing but if you are in a market for a P Model S a Taycan is 100% worth exploring.

Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 28th January 09:12

[Heres Johnny]

nickpan said:

Some really valuable advice here - Thank you!

I’m edging towards a M3P based on “peace of mind” although to the last poster’s point, what month/year do you need to go for, in order to a get a “face lift” P90D or the P100?

Thank you all.

Facelift came in mid 2016, its pretty obvious from the front which is which as the facelift looks like the current car. A P100D with free VED and supercharging are pretty rare but worth finding if you can, they have the newer seats.

The other thing about an MS of that age is you typically get AP1 - you either love or hate the next statement - AP1 is rock solid but will go no further, it reads speed limits that Teslas offering doesn't, it can lane change using the indicators etc, but it doesn't do the latest things like take lane exits (although the benefit of this is limited in my opinion as you have to take over anyway 5 seconds later) that Tesla are working on which can be dodgy in operation but no doubt will incrementally improve. HW2 cars which is what you'd get for your money is also not as powerful as the latest versions and more prone to hickups like phantom braking.

Model 3s are also so common and increasingly will be to the point that they're common. If you're buying privately I hate to think what the useed market will be like in 2 to 3 years time when loads of ex lease and company cars come onto the market.

[Mikehig]

Gangzoom: "The limit is also not that high on a 75 packs its about 2500kWh or 7000 miles or so of SuperCharging. "
" There are also now 85 pack owners whos cars will only charge at 50KW, still in warranty but Tesla don't care, as the battery warranty doesn't state anything about maintaining high charging state."
Is this problem likely to hit Model 3s as well?
Also is it a generic problem, likely to affect all makes of EV if they are charged at high rates fairly often?

Edited by Mikehig on Tuesday 28th January 09:43

[stabilio]

Heres Johnny said:

There has never been a P75

My bad, shouldn't have included the 'P'.

[Heres Johnny]

Mikehig said:

Is this problem likely to hit Model 3s as well?

Who knows? The battery construction is slightly different in the M3 but if Tesla have been overly aggressive in their choices of settings, and the M3 is set up to charge faster than the MS was, then it could experience a similar problem in the future.

What is probably more of a worry is not the specific issue, its the attitude of Tesla which is essentially to say "stuff you" to owners of their cars and thatr could include the Model 3 in any future issue

Mikehig said:

Also is it a generic problem, likely to affect all makes of EV if they are charged at high rates fairly often?

Tesla push the envelope harder than anyone else. They don't have a top safety margin like other makes do (such as BMW etc) which mean you get more of the oddities like no regen when full, tapering of charging speeds etc. Other makes have also done more to maintain a capacity letting the unsed headroom take upo the degradation (ie they shrink the headroom to compensate for degradation) Tesla have also charged faster, other makes historically have been limited to 50kw which is below the levels some get now on a Tesla with the problem. That said, the others could develop the problem especially as they're all starting to play top trumps with charge rates.

But as I said earlier, the problem is one thing, the way the manufactuer responds is another, and Tesla are pretty much refusing to accept its a problem.

[Dave Hedgehog]

I drove a 16 P90D and a M3P (mine) yesterday

very different cars to drive, the S is your typical luxo wafty fast (very) barge, the M3 is on the other hand is so much fun to drive.

Both do their job very well, I would take the M3 every time but i drive like a knobber.

[Mikehig]

Thanks Johnny.
I guess anyone buying a used EV would be well-advised to check the charging record - if available - much like you'd want to see the service history of a used ICE car.
From comments on here, it seems likely that the majority of owners will charge at home or work which will presumably mean relatively gentle rates of charge. Something to keep an eye out for as the EV fleet grows and ages.

[Zcd1]

The Model 3 incorporates all of the car-building and -designing lessons Tesla learned from the Model S and Model X, so it's bound to be the better vehicle overall.

If you value a smoother, quieter ride over all of the aforementioned after thinking about what that really means, get the latest Model S with the biggest battery you can afford.

Otherwise, Model 3.

[gangzoom]

Mikehig said:

Thanks Johnny.
I guess anyone buying a used EV would be well-advised to check the charging record - if available - much like you'd want to see the service history of a used ICE car.
From comments on here, it seems likely that the majority of owners will charge at home or work which will presumably mean relatively gentle rates of charge. Something to keep an eye out for as the EV fleet grows and ages.

I wouldn't count on a used Tesla have been looked after from the battery pack point of view, some/alot of people bought them on PCP/lease knowing they aren't going to keep the car beyond 2-3 years, add that to 'free' fuel' via Tesla Supercharging it wouldn't surprise me if quite alot of the used cars on sale today have had their battery packs hammered from day 1.

You can buy a OBD type tool that will plug into any S/X and connect to your smart phone giving you actual data from the car. This is from our car, you can see 96% of our charging has been done at home (AC charge total) versus a very small amount DC.

The tool also gives you an actual report of usable kWh in battery and also max charge rate - its the simplest way to determine the state of the battery, and considering you are investing £50K+, paying around £30 for the tool+software is nothing in return.



Personally I think used S/X prices are still way too high, though Johnny makes a good point about availability, hardly any new S/X are been sold these days, so simply by the nature of supply versus demand it may transpire the S/Xs continue to hold their value much better than the 3, which soon will be appearing enmass at the nearest Waitrose.


If you want the space the S offers over the 3 than waiting for the Y might make sense. All the suggestions are US launch is literally around the corner, so UK cars will arrive sometime in 2021.

Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 28th January 18:31