Discussion
My apologies to all concerned relative to yesterdays posting. Total frustration can lead to venting of anger and innapropriate comments.I wish I could be enthusiastic,constructive,delighted and enjoy my car to the same extent as the majority of owners on this site...I really do...I do ask the question,how many unhappy owners who live in Scotland and have made their purchase through the appointed network are there ??? Noble say our issues are not experienced by anyone else and our problems are generally one offs...Some issues were potentially dangerous and if it can happen to me,it can happen to you..Q..Is it constructive,correct or indeed safe not to make you aware of the circumstances.? All issues are well documented by the factory..I wish I had the pride of ownership that some members have and I apologise for my too direct approach to one of the most enthusiastic.....For me ,a dream car is becoming a nightmare. I still want to own one,I still want to see the marque grow from strength to strength, however, enough is enough....False promises,misguidance,a perceived lack of responsible actions,potential disregard for other owners...all situations which will not allow continued success,irrespective of the cars performance and capabilities.....Yes we want to be fans....Yes we want to be proud owners...Yes the concept is fantastic...but............
As someone who knows people at the factory on a personal, social and business level and having witnessed the day to day running theres no way at all I can view your comments made over the past few days as legitimate.
Certainly the factory would not let any car with a known fault, dangerous or otherwise, out of the doors. I'm sure many others will agree with me on this point.
Matt
Certainly the factory would not let any car with a known fault, dangerous or otherwise, out of the doors. I'm sure many others will agree with me on this point.
Matt
Elemee said:
Noble say our issues are not experienced by anyone else and our problems are generally one offs...Some issues were potentially dangerous and if it can happen to me,it can happen to you
<Snip>
All issues are well documented by the factory..I wish I had the pride of ownership that some members have and I apologise for my too direct approach to one of the most enthusiastic.....
<Snip>
promises,misguidance,a perceived lack of responsible actions,potential disregard for other owners...all situations which will not allow continued success,irrespective of the cars performance and capabilities.....Yes we want to be fans....Yes we want to be proud owners...Yes the concept is fantastic...but............
Sounded very much to me like the above was directed at the factory not the dealer.
Matt
Elemee,
Few things sprin to mind.
Sorry to hear you have had problems. The car's aren't "bullet proof" as they are a unique hand built part of the UK sports car run. I can sympathise at the frustration you are experiencing, trust me I've had my fair share of issues with the car. BUT, both my dealer AND the factory have been excellent.... hence onto the next point.
Have you rung the factory and spoken to anyone there in a non-confrontational way? Bob, Richard and the rest of them are really nice people and they do care about each and every owner. The trouble is that I'm not sure what you actually want done - so its a bit hard to see how us "happy" owners can help you?
What exactly is your gripe? You say that some issues were "potentially dangerous" but then seem to imply that whatever happened to you could happen to someone else. This doesn't sound like any company that operates within the UK! Anything "potentially" dangerous that isn't dealt with would leave the directors open to criminal proceedings. Is it that perhaps there was a lack of communication rather than something else. BMW have had to recall my X5 twice for "total brake failure" potential problems, and they were no better - the dealer didn't know anything about it for two weeks after I found out. Communication tends to be at the root problem of issues like that.
And finally what is it you want out of airing this in public? Do you want something fixed or find out if this is common? Do you want the factory to read this and contact you, your dealer to be "struck off" or something else? That isn't clear to me, so I'm a bit at a loss at how to help you.
If you could tell us how we can help you I'm sure myself and the other owners on here will try their best to get you "back on track".
J
Few things sprin to mind.
Sorry to hear you have had problems. The car's aren't "bullet proof" as they are a unique hand built part of the UK sports car run. I can sympathise at the frustration you are experiencing, trust me I've had my fair share of issues with the car. BUT, both my dealer AND the factory have been excellent.... hence onto the next point.
Have you rung the factory and spoken to anyone there in a non-confrontational way? Bob, Richard and the rest of them are really nice people and they do care about each and every owner. The trouble is that I'm not sure what you actually want done - so its a bit hard to see how us "happy" owners can help you?
What exactly is your gripe? You say that some issues were "potentially dangerous" but then seem to imply that whatever happened to you could happen to someone else. This doesn't sound like any company that operates within the UK! Anything "potentially" dangerous that isn't dealt with would leave the directors open to criminal proceedings. Is it that perhaps there was a lack of communication rather than something else. BMW have had to recall my X5 twice for "total brake failure" potential problems, and they were no better - the dealer didn't know anything about it for two weeks after I found out. Communication tends to be at the root problem of issues like that.
And finally what is it you want out of airing this in public? Do you want something fixed or find out if this is common? Do you want the factory to read this and contact you, your dealer to be "struck off" or something else? That isn't clear to me, so I'm a bit at a loss at how to help you.
If you could tell us how we can help you I'm sure myself and the other owners on here will try their best to get you "back on track".
J
It seems conclusive that this is not the correct arena for any negative debate.
As owners and enthusiasts, we share a phylosophy however we do Not assist by being too protective on issues.
When you buy a Noble you have to expect and accept some limiations. When you take design to extremes you generate risk.
Some organisations value all feedback good and bad and consisantly evaluate their performance relative to customer satisfaction.
Noble have a bloody good product however the infrastructure is in development and being viewed the good guys all the time can have detrimental effects.
Although problems can and will transpire it is not the problem but the ways and means to deal with them that generate confidence.
Being one sided does not and will not guarantee success. Issues arE too wide ranging for that.
The forum seems very protective. It treats Noble as special' qualifying all the nicely done things.
In the reality of business being so proactive, special and "drop anything to attend to a customers' needs" doesn't make profit.
Whilst we can applaud it' commercially it can be volatile unless a balance is struck.
Don't continually raise expectations to high. Live in the real world and don't expect the earth.
Regardless of circumstance, Noble will have to get more tough on issues. Sort it out regardless of cost is indeed Noble but not always good commercial practice.
You are raising expection to levels beyond financial prudence and some owners past, present and in the future will therefore be disappointed.
Continue as is and Noble will struggle to survive.
Remaining loyal through thick and thin is the definition in my book of an enthusiast. Taking the attitude that all owners will be like this is crazy. We remain enthusiasts even when we have had many many issues to resolve.
JOHN
As owners and enthusiasts, we share a phylosophy however we do Not assist by being too protective on issues.
When you buy a Noble you have to expect and accept some limiations. When you take design to extremes you generate risk.
Some organisations value all feedback good and bad and consisantly evaluate their performance relative to customer satisfaction.
Noble have a bloody good product however the infrastructure is in development and being viewed the good guys all the time can have detrimental effects.
Although problems can and will transpire it is not the problem but the ways and means to deal with them that generate confidence.
Being one sided does not and will not guarantee success. Issues arE too wide ranging for that.
The forum seems very protective. It treats Noble as special' qualifying all the nicely done things.
In the reality of business being so proactive, special and "drop anything to attend to a customers' needs" doesn't make profit.
Whilst we can applaud it' commercially it can be volatile unless a balance is struck.
Don't continually raise expectations to high. Live in the real world and don't expect the earth.
Regardless of circumstance, Noble will have to get more tough on issues. Sort it out regardless of cost is indeed Noble but not always good commercial practice.
You are raising expection to levels beyond financial prudence and some owners past, present and in the future will therefore be disappointed.
Continue as is and Noble will struggle to survive.
Remaining loyal through thick and thin is the definition in my book of an enthusiast. Taking the attitude that all owners will be like this is crazy. We remain enthusiasts even when we have had many many issues to resolve.
JOHN
Elmee,
Suggest you wander over to www.lotus-elise.org.uk/noble and look at my diary.
There is no "rosy view" in there, and if you were implying that to my post you are mistaken. The fact that the entire story, warts and all, of my car is up on the public internet and listed in the top 15-20 of every search engine when you type in "noble m12" is hardly in "denyal" is it!
Any company can cock stuff up. All companies do. It's called life. What is interesting is what said company does after the cock up.
What facinates me is despite being asked a few times you still haven't told us what's gone wrong, and what you want done about it. Why the reticence from yourself to actually tell us what's happened?
Also I'm suprised you haven't found the noble owners club BBS and mailing list. There you'll find primarily just owners, and you can talk in very candid terms about what happens with the car.
If you wander over to www.nobleownersclub.net you'll find the entire archive of owners emails. There we discuss the wider issues with the car in a frank and honest manor, with many an owner being totally blunt about the problems.
Finally a quick wander around this section of Pistonheads will also show you that many things are discussed on here in a frank and blunt manner. Not only that but the woes of my car (since totally fixed to my satisfaction I hasten to add) have been discussed at length on "General Gassing", "Events/Track Days" and even the Porsche forums. Hardly some "rosy eyed clique!?!"
So - I must admit I'm lost with what you want. You are new to this BBS, you post up in a most agressive way that your car is shagged and a particular dealer is a pile of poo, you get your thread locked, and now you apologise for the way you started, but when asked what your issue is and what you want you start posting that people aren't listening and this is some sort of cover up job.
I'll ask once more. Exactly what is your problem and what do you want us owners to tell/help you with?
J
P.S. One thing being a pedant, you can't really have a "negative" debate - to debate is to "engage in argument by discussing opposing points" - hence all debate has postive and negative componets....
>> Edited by joust on Thursday 25th March 16:21
Suggest you wander over to www.lotus-elise.org.uk/noble and look at my diary.
There is no "rosy view" in there, and if you were implying that to my post you are mistaken. The fact that the entire story, warts and all, of my car is up on the public internet and listed in the top 15-20 of every search engine when you type in "noble m12" is hardly in "denyal" is it!
Any company can cock stuff up. All companies do. It's called life. What is interesting is what said company does after the cock up.
What facinates me is despite being asked a few times you still haven't told us what's gone wrong, and what you want done about it. Why the reticence from yourself to actually tell us what's happened?
Also I'm suprised you haven't found the noble owners club BBS and mailing list. There you'll find primarily just owners, and you can talk in very candid terms about what happens with the car.
If you wander over to www.nobleownersclub.net you'll find the entire archive of owners emails. There we discuss the wider issues with the car in a frank and honest manor, with many an owner being totally blunt about the problems.
Finally a quick wander around this section of Pistonheads will also show you that many things are discussed on here in a frank and blunt manner. Not only that but the woes of my car (since totally fixed to my satisfaction I hasten to add) have been discussed at length on "General Gassing", "Events/Track Days" and even the Porsche forums. Hardly some "rosy eyed clique!?!"
So - I must admit I'm lost with what you want. You are new to this BBS, you post up in a most agressive way that your car is shagged and a particular dealer is a pile of poo, you get your thread locked, and now you apologise for the way you started, but when asked what your issue is and what you want you start posting that people aren't listening and this is some sort of cover up job.
I'll ask once more. Exactly what is your problem and what do you want us owners to tell/help you with?
J
P.S. One thing being a pedant, you can't really have a "negative" debate - to debate is to "engage in argument by discussing opposing points" - hence all debate has postive and negative componets....
>> Edited by joust on Thursday 25th March 16:21
Elemee or Ray or John?!,
Well, I missed your 'rant' post and am also curious to learn what the specific issues are with your M12?! This, or the forum or the BBS are the right places to air this stuff - naturally, in a professional manner :-), so go for it!
FYI, I was at the factory today and I ran through a reasonably long list of items/comments/niggles/suggestions relating to my 5 week old 3R (nothing life-threatening though!). Now, I'm a fussy bugger and the person I spoke to up there listened very carefully to my points, understood why I made them and has now gone away to either fix them or provide a suggestion or positioning statement - I'm happy with that approach!
Well, I missed your 'rant' post and am also curious to learn what the specific issues are with your M12?! This, or the forum or the BBS are the right places to air this stuff - naturally, in a professional manner :-), so go for it!
FYI, I was at the factory today and I ran through a reasonably long list of items/comments/niggles/suggestions relating to my 5 week old 3R (nothing life-threatening though!). Now, I'm a fussy bugger and the person I spoke to up there listened very carefully to my points, understood why I made them and has now gone away to either fix them or provide a suggestion or positioning statement - I'm happy with that approach!
Joust...thank you for the reply, especially the p.s. Had a look at your diary, website, the squirrels and holiday snaps,bedroom wallpaper etc etc...brought a tear to my eye, and a lump to my throat...I've never seen anything so beautiful...!!! The panoramic shots taken without a tripod, and no camera shake...exeptional mate !!!!
Petrol Ted....I decline at this juncture to elaborate on any details,in respect to ongoing discussions.It is not my responsibility or indeed wish, to specify the particulars of my experience.. I'm sure many owners would defend or counter any argument and not grasp the intention correctly....I would not want to dilute any owners perceptions and I trust that you understand this.... Elemee..
PetrolTed said:Yes its a credit to the company...and indeed a credit to the owners...
Elemee,
I still think you're getting the wrong end of the stick here. Noble have engendered some strong customer loyalty which is being displayed here. Nothing wrong with that and it's a credit to the company.
Why won't you actually tell us what the issues are?
Grow up FFS, every Noble owner I've met has been realistic, yes people do get problems with their cars and the factory and their representatives deal with these problems in a way that makes them stand out as being a company that cares about it's customers.
If you have had an experience that contradicts that point of view then share it, either here or on the mailing list, what benefit are you getting from being so vague? Perhaps your only aim is to discredit Noble or maybe you are Peter Wheeler?
If you have had an experience that contradicts that point of view then share it, either here or on the mailing list, what benefit are you getting from being so vague? Perhaps your only aim is to discredit Noble or maybe you are Peter Wheeler?
Elemee said:
Joust...thank you for the reply, especially the p.s. Had a look at your diary, website, the squirrels and holiday snaps,bedroom wallpaper etc etc...brought a tear to my eye, and a lump to my throat...I've never seen anything so beautiful...!!! The panoramic shots taken without a tripod, and no camera shake...exeptional mate !!!!
I'm so glad I made you day and cheered you up. If you fancy coming down to London anytime let me know and I'll make you feel really warm inside with a special injection of humour and love.
I'll take you lack of wish to tell us what was wrong as an indication of your love for the marque - nothing like not washing your laundry in public, particularly the dirty pants.
J
>> Edited by joust on Thursday 25th March 18:28
m12_nathan said:
Grow up FFS, every Noble owner I've met has been realistic, yes people do get problems with their cars and the factory and their representatives deal with these problems in a way that makes them stand out as being a company that cares about it's customers.
If you have had an experience that contradicts that point of view then share it, either here or on the mailing list, what benefit are you getting from being so vague? Perhaps your only aim is to discredit Noble or maybe you are Peter Wheeler?
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