SUPRA MOTOR???
Discussion
If this is true, maybe which engine is a valid question.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=69503&f=26&h=0
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=69503&f=26&h=0
US ones have the same Ford V6 as the rest. Remember the car is designed around both the ford engine *and* transmission, changing that is not a trival task (as the various Elise engine changes have proved...)
What's wrong with the Ford V6 anyway - 0-60 in 3.7 is hardly "slow", and with the M400 pumping out over 400bhp and a similar amount of lb/ft of torque, do you *really* need more????
Even with my standard 2.5 I can "shame" almost anything this side of £110k.....
J
What's wrong with the Ford V6 anyway - 0-60 in 3.7 is hardly "slow", and with the M400 pumping out over 400bhp and a similar amount of lb/ft of torque, do you *really* need more????
Even with my standard 2.5 I can "shame" almost anything this side of £110k.....
J
badjer said:
New to this car, but are there other options than the FORD motor. A 2jzgte inline would be awesome!!!
Why would this engine be awesome, or better than the V6 that's in there? In fact from what I can see, it's an awful lot worse!
The Toyota unit is a 3 litre twin turbo the same as the Duratec block, but has an inline configuration. This means it would not be able to fit sideways like the V6 block, so the transfer and gearbox would not welcome it. On saying you could squeeze it in, the engine would sit much higher, so the weight distribution would suffer badly.
The Toyota engine develops 280bhp and 323 ft/lb torque (Japanese spec). It has a sequential turbo setup so it's not your 'typical' twin turbo.
The Duratec block develops somewhere in the region of 340 bhp and a similar figure in torque, using a 'proper' twin turbo setup, yet has no issues with driveability. I can only see disadvantages in using a Supra engine.
My first posting. 
joust, the M400 sounds better; but it's my impression that this is the stripped race car version that's not even available yet. Correct? So currently the Noble is stuck at a paltry 345hp with the GT3R. Even the 400hp M400 isn't too impressive. Does anyone modify these cars from factory specs at all? I've read ALL of the posts here and it doesn't seem like anyone strays from the factory at all. With the speculated upcoming option of having forged internals, I would think raising the boost on race gas via a boost controller would be a no-brainer. I'm not aware of the fuel system limits though.
Lawrence, "an aweful lot worse"? Oh my my. This debate isn't nessesary because you did correctly state that the Supra engine will not fit. But otherwise, you haven't a clue. The Ford Duratec block we're speaking of is in modified form with 2 turbos added. Direct from Ford this is a 160hp engine powering the likes of the mighty Ford Tempo. Why compare modified to the stock 2JZGTE? FYI, it puts out well over 325hp in the US and UK markets. Actually that # is closer to the RWHP due to being underated. Modified, this motor is a gem. Bolting up a cat-back exhaust and downpipe (deletion of catalytic converters), while raising the boost (free mod as the fuel and turbos support it) will give in the range of 430+ RWHP or over 500 crank hp. Now, change the turbos and you can be in the current average of 700-960 rwhp on 100% stock internals (pistons, rods, etc). Strengthen the motor's internals and it's rediculous.
Anyway, this is a Noble forum. I LOVE Nobles even despite the lack of power and the fact you can't make a u-turn. Lots of new things going for the M12, so I'm waiting it out. I'm glad I waited out the ugly headlights and lack of lsd. 
Very nice now.
John H
joust, the M400 sounds better; but it's my impression that this is the stripped race car version that's not even available yet. Correct? So currently the Noble is stuck at a paltry 345hp with the GT3R. Even the 400hp M400 isn't too impressive. Does anyone modify these cars from factory specs at all? I've read ALL of the posts here and it doesn't seem like anyone strays from the factory at all. With the speculated upcoming option of having forged internals, I would think raising the boost on race gas via a boost controller would be a no-brainer. I'm not aware of the fuel system limits though.
Lawrence, "an aweful lot worse"? Oh my my. This debate isn't nessesary because you did correctly state that the Supra engine will not fit. But otherwise, you haven't a clue. The Ford Duratec block we're speaking of is in modified form with 2 turbos added. Direct from Ford this is a 160hp engine powering the likes of the mighty Ford Tempo. Why compare modified to the stock 2JZGTE? FYI, it puts out well over 325hp in the US and UK markets. Actually that # is closer to the RWHP due to being underated. Modified, this motor is a gem. Bolting up a cat-back exhaust and downpipe (deletion of catalytic converters), while raising the boost (free mod as the fuel and turbos support it) will give in the range of 430+ RWHP or over 500 crank hp. Now, change the turbos and you can be in the current average of 700-960 rwhp on 100% stock internals (pistons, rods, etc). Strengthen the motor's internals and it's rediculous.
Anyway, this is a Noble forum. I LOVE Nobles even despite the lack of power and the fact you can't make a u-turn.
Lots of new things going for the M12, so I'm waiting it out. I'm glad I waited out the ugly headlights and lack of lsd. Very nice now. John H
John
I don't agree. Massive outright power figures do not always make a good car. As Joust says, the Noble with it's 'paltry' 350bhp hits 60 in 3.7secs and is quicker to 120mph than almost anything else on the road. It does this in a chassis capable of pulling huge lateral G-force in corners and delivers sublime handling. On an A to B twisty road nothing comes close - not even the latest EvoPrezza things.
The car could take more bhp, hence the factory development. But I've already wheelspun it's 265 rear tyres in 6th gear (wet) so massive power hikes to 700bhp are completely unnecessary, if not almost dangerous without electronic aids to keep you on the black stuff.
Just how quick do you want to go? If you want drag-strip performance then get a 4 wheel drive Japcar with all the electronics to get off the line quickly. If you want a drivers car that will whip almost anything else on the road with it's 350 horses, then get a Noble.
PS - Just realised that you are from the USA. Remember that the UK's longest clear, straight piece of road is less than 10 miles in length. Everywhere else is corners and Nobles LOVE corners.
I don't agree. Massive outright power figures do not always make a good car. As Joust says, the Noble with it's 'paltry' 350bhp hits 60 in 3.7secs and is quicker to 120mph than almost anything else on the road. It does this in a chassis capable of pulling huge lateral G-force in corners and delivers sublime handling. On an A to B twisty road nothing comes close - not even the latest EvoPrezza things.
The car could take more bhp, hence the factory development. But I've already wheelspun it's 265 rear tyres in 6th gear (wet) so massive power hikes to 700bhp are completely unnecessary, if not almost dangerous without electronic aids to keep you on the black stuff.
Just how quick do you want to go? If you want drag-strip performance then get a 4 wheel drive Japcar with all the electronics to get off the line quickly. If you want a drivers car that will whip almost anything else on the road with it's 350 horses, then get a Noble.
PS - Just realised that you are from the USA. Remember that the UK's longest clear, straight piece of road is less than 10 miles in length. Everywhere else is corners and Nobles LOVE corners.
John H said:
My first posting.
joust, the M400 sounds better; but it's my impression that this is the stripped race car version that's not even available yet. Correct? So currently the Noble is stuck at a paltry 345hp with the GT3R. Even the 400hp M400 isn't too impressive. Does anyone modify these cars from factory specs at all? I've read ALL of the posts here and it doesn't seem like anyone strays from the factory at all. With the speculated upcoming option of having forged internals, I would think raising the boost on race gas via a boost controller would be a no-brainer. I'm not aware of the fuel system limits though.
Lawrence, "an aweful lot worse"? Oh my my. This debate isn't nessesary because you did correctly state that the Supra engine will not fit. But otherwise, you haven't a clue. The Ford Duratec block we're speaking of is in modified form with 2 turbos added. Direct from Ford this is a 160hp engine powering the likes of the mighty Ford Tempo. Why compare modified to the stock 2JZGTE? FYI, it puts out well over 325hp in the US and UK markets. Actually that # is closer to the RWHP due to being underated. Modified, this motor is a gem. Bolting up a cat-back exhaust and downpipe (deletion of catalytic converters), while raising the boost (free mod as the fuel and turbos support it) will give in the range of 430+ RWHP or over 500 crank hp. Now, change the turbos and you can be in the current average of 700-960 rwhp on 100% stock internals (pistons, rods, etc). Strengthen the motor's internals and it's rediculous.
Anyway, this is a Noble forum. I LOVE Nobles even despite the lack of power and the fact you can't make a u-turn.
John H
John, why then compare the blown Supra motor vs the unblown Ford V6? The Supra lump in NA guise is hardly a wonder of modern engineering is it? (and yes I used to own a modded Supra TT before you ask - tuned by the guy who owns possible the fastest Supra in the UK - Leon Green - as proved at Ten of The Best 2 years ago).
900 rwhp from stock internals - sorry you are talking out of your @rse. Big HKS twins and significant fettling to engine internals would be needed to get this level of power (not a bs claim as most Supras are). Not to mention the standard Auto box would lunch its internals at pretty much anything over 500 rwhp.
Sorry, I owned a Supra so can't be called biased, I love the cars and they can be turned into extremely powerful beasts, but its not easy at all to get to that level of tune, and does cause a lot of heart ache (talk to Leon Green and Terry Saunders - the two big power Supras in the UK).
Oh, and putting decat pipes on and chucking a boost controller on does NOT give you 500bhp at the crank!! unless you are running on rocket fuel!! No point going over 1.2 bar on stock turbos, as they are pretty much ineffecient after that, you also risk running lean, plus you will need an expensive FMIC to keep temps in check. Anything over 1.2 bar on stock turbos and they aint going to last for all that long. Especially the J spec ceramics.
>> Edited by ek993 on Thursday 11th December 15:35
Hey, we can't help it that Americans are used to perfectly nice V6 engines being shoved in horrid rental specials made out of loo roll and coat hanger wire... Don't hold that against the Noble.
A 'paltry' 345 bhp? In a car weighing no more than a ton I'd say that's enough to keep the very best of us entertained on the track, let alone on the road. In real world terms, only the likes of the Mclaren F1 or Koenigsegg CC have a significantly better power/weight ratio.
What's the obsession with having 700-900 rwhp at your disposal? IMHO that would degrade a perfectly balanced package to being a grossly overpowered contraption, the only use of which is at the drag strip. Surely there's cheaper options for that...
A 'paltry' 345 bhp? In a car weighing no more than a ton I'd say that's enough to keep the very best of us entertained on the track, let alone on the road. In real world terms, only the likes of the Mclaren F1 or Koenigsegg CC have a significantly better power/weight ratio.
What's the obsession with having 700-900 rwhp at your disposal? IMHO that would degrade a perfectly balanced package to being a grossly overpowered contraption, the only use of which is at the drag strip. Surely there's cheaper options for that...
John H said:
So currently the Noble is stuck at a paltry 345hp with the GT3R. Even the 400hp M400 isn't too impressive.
a paltry 345hp! 345hp and 1040kg=
My suggestion would be to go for a test drive. This side of £300K or a bike I can't think of anything else that would match it.
Thanks
Michael
John H said:
My first posting.
joust, the M400 sounds better; but it's my impression that this is the stripped race car version that's not even available yet. Correct? So currently the Noble is stuck at a paltry 345hp with the GT3R. Even the 400hp M400 isn't too impressive.
HELL BOY EVERY THINGS BIGGER IN TEXAS what a totally ridiculous statmment
The GTO 3R I drove in Cincinnatti three weeks ago had a reported 365-370 hp with a modified chip for higher boost. I cannot imagine needing any more power on the street or realistically even on the track. That's a lot of power to learn to drive properly. Most of us will never approach the limits of these cars - I'm still trying learn the limits of my '87 911 with only 225hp and I'm having a blast doing it.
It is not the power that is the real problem with the ford. It's just that it is a ford. The toyota motor can EASILY do 400-500 hp (US SPEC) WITHOUT FORGED PISTONS AND ALL THE OTHER UPGRADES THEY DO TO THE FORD. With just as much, if not more, reliability. My only concern would be fitment and weight disribution. Oh and can you really have too much horsepower.
ek993 said:
John H said:
My first posting.
joust, the M400 sounds better; but it's my impression that this is the stripped race car version that's not even available yet. Correct? So currently the Noble is stuck at a paltry 345hp with the GT3R. Even the 400hp M400 isn't too impressive. Does anyone modify these cars from factory specs at all? I've read ALL of the posts here and it doesn't seem like anyone strays from the factory at all. With the speculated upcoming option of having forged internals, I would think raising the boost on race gas via a boost controller would be a no-brainer. I'm not aware of the fuel system limits though.
Lawrence, "an aweful lot worse"? Oh my my. This debate isn't nessesary because you did correctly state that the Supra engine will not fit. But otherwise, you haven't a clue. The Ford Duratec block we're speaking of is in modified form with 2 turbos added. Direct from Ford this is a 160hp engine powering the likes of the mighty Ford Tempo. Why compare modified to the stock 2JZGTE? FYI, it puts out well over 325hp in the US and UK markets. Actually that # is closer to the RWHP due to being underated. Modified, this motor is a gem. Bolting up a cat-back exhaust and downpipe (deletion of catalytic converters), while raising the boost (free mod as the fuel and turbos support it) will give in the range of 430+ RWHP or over 500 crank hp. Now, change the turbos and you can be in the current average of 700-960 rwhp on 100% stock internals (pistons, rods, etc). Strengthen the motor's internals and it's rediculous.
Anyway, this is a Noble forum. I LOVE Nobles even despite the lack of power and the fact you can't make a u-turn.
John H
John, why then compare the blown Supra motor vs the unblown Ford V6? The Supra lump in NA guise is hardly a wonder of modern engineering is it? (and yes I used to own a modded Supra TT before you ask - tuned by the guy who owns possible the fastest Supra in the UK - Leon Green - as proved at Ten of The Best 2 years ago).
900 rwhp from stock internals - sorry you are talking out of your @rse. Big HKS twins and significant fettling to engine internals would be needed to get this level of power (not a bs claim as most Supras are). Not to mention the standard Auto box would lunch its internals at pretty much anything over 500 rwhp.
Sorry, I owned a Supra so can't be called biased, I love the cars and they can be turned into extremely powerful beasts, but its not easy at all to get to that level of tune, and does cause a lot of heart ache (talk to Leon Green and Terry Saunders - the two big power Supras in the UK).
Oh, and putting decat pipes on and chucking a boost controller on does NOT give you 500bhp at the crank!! unless you are running on rocket fuel!! No point going over 1.2 bar on stock turbos, as they are pretty much ineffecient after that, you also risk running lean, plus you will need an expensive FMIC to keep temps in check. Anything over 1.2 bar on stock turbos and they aint going to last for all that long. Especially the J spec ceramics.
>> Edited by ek993 on Thursday 11th December 15:35
I totally agree with ek993’s points.
The Supra engine is a great one - who can deny it? But 900hp is utterly ridiculous and has no place in a Noble. The 'bolt on' system you seem to have is very 'The Fast And The Furious' indeed, because as ek993 correctly pointed out, it takes a great deal more than a straight-through exhaust, a couple of HKS GT3037's and a bit of engine management to get to >900bhp rwhp! (around 1100bhp at the flywheel I make it)!!!! To get this kind of power I estimate a minimum commitment of £50k-70k and be prepared to pay around half that again a year or two later for whatever goes bang and whatever else is destroyed in its path. These engines are hugely stressed and do NOT last!
I think the only 'clueless' one is yourself as you cannot see past power figures (or penis size measurements as they can be called
). The chassis is what's great about the Noble, and as I have said, the V6 mates to it perfectly so you end up with an amazingly balanced car that corners like no other car I have experienced. The engine plays a part in this because of where it is mounted, how it is mounted, and its configuration. The V6 sits lower and therefore has a lower centre of gravity, something you could not say about a Supra block. In a car this light it's not all about power - there was a thread a while back on the GTR-OC, and everyone agreed that a Skyline would need somewhere in the region of 550bhp to keep with a 2.5 litre Noble on a track.
If you want a ¼ mile car then buy a Supra in the first place and tune that. It would be an crime to do anything to jeopardise the Noble’s handling.
All just my opinions so feel free to gun them down like I'm sure you will
>> Edited by LaurenceFrost on Friday 12th December 11:35
amg merc said:
michael_JCWS said:
My suggestion would be to go for a test drive. This side of £300K or a bike I can't think of anything else that would match it.
Thanks
Michael
TVR T350?
...in a straight line maybe, but what about those corners?!
I don't know, those AA trucks aren't bad in the twisties
Hi All,
First, please don't hold the "US Supra guy" against the rest of us from the US - we're not all that clueless.
I figured I'd address a question that came up in the thread that hasn't been answered. Someone asked if anyone is modifying Nobles to increase the power, and mentioned that it seems like everyone is keeping them stock.
I hope Lee or anyone else at the Noble factory won't take offense at this, but yes, there are several people in the US that are looking at modifying their engines (myself included). Those of us that are reasonable seem to be looking for power in the 400hp - 420hp range (with the goal of keeping the great turbo response/drivability of the stock car) -- the same goal as the factory it seems. For me, it doesn't make sense to wait until a factory solution is finally available -- that would likely mean having to buy a new set of turbo's. I would rather my car start with slightly larger turbos so I don't need to upgrade them later.
I'm aware of one guy (insane) that is aiming for the 600hp+ range. I don't have an issue with that, since that kind of insanity will likely remove him from the gene pool soon, making things better for the rest of us (grin).
I would guess that by the end of January, there could be an "aftermarket" 400-420hp bolt-on solution, at least in the U.S.
Best,
Marc
First, please don't hold the "US Supra guy" against the rest of us from the US - we're not all that clueless
. I figured I'd address a question that came up in the thread that hasn't been answered. Someone asked if anyone is modifying Nobles to increase the power, and mentioned that it seems like everyone is keeping them stock.
I hope Lee or anyone else at the Noble factory won't take offense at this, but yes, there are several people in the US that are looking at modifying their engines (myself included). Those of us that are reasonable
seem to be looking for power in the 400hp - 420hp range (with the goal of keeping the great turbo response/drivability of the stock car) -- the same goal as the factory it seems. For me, it doesn't make sense to wait until a factory solution is finally available -- that would likely mean having to buy a new set of turbo's. I would rather my car start with slightly larger turbos so I don't need to upgrade them later. I'm aware of one guy (insane) that is aiming for the 600hp+ range. I don't have an issue with that, since that kind of insanity will likely remove him from the gene pool soon, making things better for the rest of us (grin).
I would guess that by the end of January, there could be an "aftermarket" 400-420hp bolt-on solution, at least in the U.S.
Best,
Marc
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