Discussion
5 speed is MTX75, don't know what the 6 speed is, but it is a ford unit as far as I know. I've got the 5 speed box in my GTO3 and no problems with 350Lb/Ft ish, if you want to increase the power of the car (as in M400) then a 6 speed box is required. All New cars coming from the factory now have the 6 speed box as standard.
Yes, the 5-speed 'box fitted as standard to all GTO-3s is the MTX75, but all the GTO-3Rs (which account for the bulk of our sales) come with the all-new 6-speed Getrag-Ford box. I believe that we were the first car company in the world to use this 'box and it is proving immensely strong and reliable. Our press and devlopment cars have clocked up in excess of 50k extremely hard, miles - many of which have been on race circuits and test tracks - and all their 'boxes are as sweet as the day they were installed. In fact, we're confident that the G-F can take a lot more than 352bhp reliably, which is another reason for using it.
Apart from all that, the ratios are closer than the 5-speed and the car runs a taller top gear, making the M12 a better long-distance cruiser.
Simon Hucknall
Press Officer
Apart from all that, the ratios are closer than the 5-speed and the car runs a taller top gear, making the M12 a better long-distance cruiser.
Simon Hucknall
Press Officer
Micknall,
Of the (few) criticisms that are regularly raised against the 3R, an increasingly frequent one is in regard to the new 6-speed gearbox - saying that the change action must be made slowly, and complaining that it is particularly baulky at low speed. The recent Top Gear article even said that it frequently jumped out of second gear...
That report also complained about 'lack of steering feel', which surprised me. These are real issues that journalists bring up again and again (along with the uncomfortable seats). Are these issues that the factory agrees exist, and if so what will you be doing to address them?
Best regards.
Of the (few) criticisms that are regularly raised against the 3R, an increasingly frequent one is in regard to the new 6-speed gearbox - saying that the change action must be made slowly, and complaining that it is particularly baulky at low speed. The recent Top Gear article even said that it frequently jumped out of second gear...
That report also complained about 'lack of steering feel', which surprised me. These are real issues that journalists bring up again and again (along with the uncomfortable seats). Are these issues that the factory agrees exist, and if so what will you be doing to address them?
Best regards.
I had the six speed fitted to my car along with a 3 litre engine etc. and it has been absolutly fine - never 'jumps' out of gear - can be a bit notchy but you do get used to it and it becomes second nature - it is a great improvement over the 5 speeder. As for the seats my only complaint is there is no lumber support - but this is now an option I belive if you ask for it they will fit it - I intend to have it donw when I have saved the penny's after xmas.
I'd couple the comments in the press with "never used it very much". At lot of comments are made about the gearchange in many low volume cars from "sweet as a nutt" to "bloddy awful", but the key here is "are you using it wrong".
For the first day or so in my new GTO I couldn't believe how bad 2nd gear to 3rd gear was. I kept on missing the gear, and if I had been a "jurno on a test drive" would probably have put it into the "bloddy awful" catagory.
Then I tried something very interesting, I actually stopped trying to change gear like a "normal car" and just sat in the car slowly moving through the gears finding how the gearbox gate worked, without actually moving.
I then found that actually the gearchange was "sweet as a nut" if you actually just "forgot" how a normal 5 speed H gate worked and "went with" the box. Even better I found that if you actually changed gears ala a "dog" box (i.e. move it in a diagonal line from 2nd to 3rd hard, rather than "up - across diag - up" as you would on a "normal car" the speed of change was amazing.
If you want to see it for yourself check out the videos I've posted up - one thing you can't say is that the gear changes are anything but slow (listen for the engine note to see how quick the changes are).
Funny enough, when I drove Lee's M400 car I found the 6 speeder was very different as well, but after a few laps I actually found it's natural method and became just at home with it as well (and the speed of shift was truely wonderful!).
So - different yes, bad - not in my expierence.
As for "steering feel" - I've never understood why Autocar's hacks have always said that Audi's have "no steering feel" and BMW's have "loads" - I personally perfer an A4 over an 3 series anyday as I come from the "Ur-Quattro" mould - it's totally subjective.
For me I rely on the "handy" jurnos to give feedback (i.e. the JC's, TN's, CH's etc.), but still go and drive the thing for myself (and preferably for quite some time).
So - in summary, yes it's *different*, but bad - not for me.
J
For the first day or so in my new GTO I couldn't believe how bad 2nd gear to 3rd gear was. I kept on missing the gear, and if I had been a "jurno on a test drive" would probably have put it into the "bloddy awful" catagory.
Then I tried something very interesting, I actually stopped trying to change gear like a "normal car" and just sat in the car slowly moving through the gears finding how the gearbox gate worked, without actually moving.
I then found that actually the gearchange was "sweet as a nut" if you actually just "forgot" how a normal 5 speed H gate worked and "went with" the box. Even better I found that if you actually changed gears ala a "dog" box (i.e. move it in a diagonal line from 2nd to 3rd hard, rather than "up - across diag - up" as you would on a "normal car" the speed of change was amazing.
If you want to see it for yourself check out the videos I've posted up - one thing you can't say is that the gear changes are anything but slow (listen for the engine note to see how quick the changes are).
Funny enough, when I drove Lee's M400 car I found the 6 speeder was very different as well, but after a few laps I actually found it's natural method and became just at home with it as well (and the speed of shift was truely wonderful!).
So - different yes, bad - not in my expierence.
As for "steering feel" - I've never understood why Autocar's hacks have always said that Audi's have "no steering feel" and BMW's have "loads" - I personally perfer an A4 over an 3 series anyday as I come from the "Ur-Quattro" mould - it's totally subjective.
For me I rely on the "handy" jurnos to give feedback (i.e. the JC's, TN's, CH's etc.), but still go and drive the thing for myself (and preferably for quite some time).
So - in summary, yes it's *different*, but bad - not for me.
J
Marlon. The 6 speed gearbox is an absolute joy to use either on 'normal' road use or 'fast' track use, from my experience. The position of the lever to steering wheel is spot-on. Close enough to change gear quickly and return your hand to the wheel. The feel between gates is very positive, and one which takes just a rolling wrist action (rather than an armful). Just enough spring assistance betwen gates.
From cold, sometimes it takes a little more pressure to engange a gear than when warm. But this is normal for any gearbox coping with cold thicker oil between the syncro's.
The ratios couldn't be better. Very close for the first 4, (this is where you can just flick your wrist through the gears up and down the box) and longer for 5th and 6th. (ideal for motorway).
Combined with the LSD, I cannot think of a gearbox that was better in any sportcar that I have diven. (And I've driven a few).
Cheers, Ian.
>> Edited by 3rtt on Monday 8th December 16:02
From cold, sometimes it takes a little more pressure to engange a gear than when warm. But this is normal for any gearbox coping with cold thicker oil between the syncro's.
The ratios couldn't be better. Very close for the first 4, (this is where you can just flick your wrist through the gears up and down the box) and longer for 5th and 6th. (ideal for motorway).
Combined with the LSD, I cannot think of a gearbox that was better in any sportcar that I have diven. (And I've driven a few).
Cheers, Ian.
>> Edited by 3rtt on Monday 8th December 16:02
Marlon,
Gearchange first. For sure, the 3R's 'shift has had mixed reviews in the press, but as Joust says (quite rightly), if you attempt to 'place' the lever in a slot, rather than use a light, fluid movement to change gear, it can feel bulky. Bound to say this, I know, but since we sorted teething problems with our early development/press car, I've never had a problem with the gearchange. In fact, last week I accompanied a very experienced, well-know journalist in the same car that TG tested and he said that the 'change had a 'nice, mechanical feel to it.'
Ford has been kind enough to lend me an ST220 for the last few days, which uses the same 'box, but with a vastly different linkage. It is definitely lighter and quieter, without the 'snick-snick' of our 'change, and it also has a longer throw. Lee could certainly engineer such a shift for the Noble, but would that be in keeping with the M12's character? Probably not.
TG did, however, make a valid point about the car jumping out of second. I cannot stress enough that this IS a one-off problem, isolated to this car only. KS03 HCC has now racked up over 13,000 miles in just over three months, done countless track events, been figured by a variety of car mags (each of these sessions adds about 1000 miles to its wear and tear) and been driven flat-out for filming and photography in the UK and Europe. Sure, we check and occasionally fettle it when it comes in from loan, but it's had nothing at all major done to it from Day One. The gearbox will be changed/repaired, obviously, but you need to qualify TG's criticism with the life the car has seen.
And steering feel? It's very much a subjective thing, of course. I used to own an Elise S1 that offered truly remarkable levels of steering precision and communication to the driver. Being mid-engined, though, it became too twitchy on typically bumpy, UK B-roads. In other words, sometimes you would trade 10 per cent of its involvement for a bit of neutrality just off the straight ahead, so that you could hit mid-corner bumps and not have the wheel squirming in your hand. That's what the M12 has, which makes it so easy to drive fast. But I would never say it 'lacks feel', because it doesn't. Try a 996 Turbo, and you'll find that Porsche has struck the same happy compromise as us.
Seats? Yep, we're on the case. They suit some, but not others, so we are looking at ways to improve things. Please bear with us.
Sorry about the wordy response, but I hope I've addressed your concerns.
S
Gearchange first. For sure, the 3R's 'shift has had mixed reviews in the press, but as Joust says (quite rightly), if you attempt to 'place' the lever in a slot, rather than use a light, fluid movement to change gear, it can feel bulky. Bound to say this, I know, but since we sorted teething problems with our early development/press car, I've never had a problem with the gearchange. In fact, last week I accompanied a very experienced, well-know journalist in the same car that TG tested and he said that the 'change had a 'nice, mechanical feel to it.'
Ford has been kind enough to lend me an ST220 for the last few days, which uses the same 'box, but with a vastly different linkage. It is definitely lighter and quieter, without the 'snick-snick' of our 'change, and it also has a longer throw. Lee could certainly engineer such a shift for the Noble, but would that be in keeping with the M12's character? Probably not.
TG did, however, make a valid point about the car jumping out of second. I cannot stress enough that this IS a one-off problem, isolated to this car only. KS03 HCC has now racked up over 13,000 miles in just over three months, done countless track events, been figured by a variety of car mags (each of these sessions adds about 1000 miles to its wear and tear) and been driven flat-out for filming and photography in the UK and Europe. Sure, we check and occasionally fettle it when it comes in from loan, but it's had nothing at all major done to it from Day One. The gearbox will be changed/repaired, obviously, but you need to qualify TG's criticism with the life the car has seen.
And steering feel? It's very much a subjective thing, of course. I used to own an Elise S1 that offered truly remarkable levels of steering precision and communication to the driver. Being mid-engined, though, it became too twitchy on typically bumpy, UK B-roads. In other words, sometimes you would trade 10 per cent of its involvement for a bit of neutrality just off the straight ahead, so that you could hit mid-corner bumps and not have the wheel squirming in your hand. That's what the M12 has, which makes it so easy to drive fast. But I would never say it 'lacks feel', because it doesn't. Try a 996 Turbo, and you'll find that Porsche has struck the same happy compromise as us.
Seats? Yep, we're on the case. They suit some, but not others, so we are looking at ways to improve things. Please bear with us.
Sorry about the wordy response, but I hope I've addressed your concerns.
S
Have no fear Marlon, you have made a great choice.
From January / February when you take delivery onwards, you will be wearing the silliest grin. Ever.
I can never understand why (some) journalists think it's cool or whatever to make a statement about something (lack of steering feel) that is obviously a not correct. Particularly after it has been written and commented on before how well the steering does communcate with the driver, and how well the car turns in and changes direction.
Perhaps that journo had a bad night before tucked up in a room on his own and lost all sence of feeling from his hands
From January / February when you take delivery onwards, you will be wearing the silliest grin. Ever.
I can never understand why (some) journalists think it's cool or whatever to make a statement about something (lack of steering feel) that is obviously a not correct. Particularly after it has been written and commented on before how well the steering does communcate with the driver, and how well the car turns in and changes direction.
Perhaps that journo had a bad night before tucked up in a room on his own and lost all sence of feeling from his hands
Much appreciated Micknall.
Your comments on steering feel (a compromise) make enormous sense, and from what I've heard the 6-speed is better than the previous 5-speed which I didn't think was at all bad on my test drive!
You'll hear no complaint from me, I'm sure. Can't wait to get my car, particularly now that I've seen more pictures of it in Monza red...
Your comments on steering feel (a compromise) make enormous sense, and from what I've heard the 6-speed is better than the previous 5-speed which I didn't think was at all bad on my test drive!
You'll hear no complaint from me, I'm sure. Can't wait to get my car, particularly now that I've seen more pictures of it in Monza red...
micknall said:Absolutly - and thanks to Lee for seeing sense
In other words, sometimes you would trade 10 per cent of its involvement for a bit of neutrality just off the straight ahead, so that you could hit mid-corner bumps and not have the wheel squirming in your hand. That's what the M12 has, which makes it so easy to drive fast.
For anyone that hasn't driven a Ur Quattro - it certainly has feel - but way too much. On normal B roads the steering actually feels as though it's got Parkinson's given the amount it moves on the straight ahead. I am forever having "heart stopping" moments when going past a truck the wheels hit a bad bit of road, you get "tramlining" through the wheel in such a way that your brain feels as though the car is doing a hard right turn straight at the lorry
Thank god Audi listened and dialled out the "direct" feel on the straight ahead. For me, something like an RS4 is very very nicely setup, but a common junro quote about such car is "lifeless steering".
Personally I think the M12 is just about right, loads of feel when turning in down twisty B roads or on the track, nice and stable when pootling down a straight bit of road.
Interestingly the Elise was very similar to the Ur on P0's - once I changed to the Yoko Advan's they were obviously more compliant (and hence removed some of the "feel"), but it made the whole car feel much more safer, and got much better ability out of me as a result.
J
Picked my car up last week after having various mods including 6speed box, as Joust says with the 5speed you adapt your style .The 6speed is no problem its a joy to go through from 2nd to 5th tighter gate, very precise and ratios are great, the bad bit is selecting reverse but its just getting the knack.
Seat is a bit hard but personally that suits me and as for the steering i really dont understand but i drive an RS4 everyday and love it and the magazines complained about the steering on that aswell.
Kevin
Seat is a bit hard but personally that suits me and as for the steering i really dont understand but i drive an RS4 everyday and love it and the magazines complained about the steering on that aswell.
Kevin
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