3R - 352 or 385 BHP?
Discussion
Hi All,
Sorry if this has been discussed already - I do keep half an eye on the forum and haven't seen this tread.
I believe the standard 3R is 352 BHP, but have seen other cars quoted as 385. Is there a factory option to upgrade to 385 BHP? If so, how much is it?
Also, is this a genuine 352/385 BHP (i.e. has anyone put their car on a dyno to verify it?). TVR quote 340 BHP, but a typical 5 litre car is around 260-270...
Regards.
Sorry if this has been discussed already - I do keep half an eye on the forum and haven't seen this tread.
I believe the standard 3R is 352 BHP, but have seen other cars quoted as 385. Is there a factory option to upgrade to 385 BHP? If so, how much is it?
Also, is this a genuine 352/385 BHP (i.e. has anyone put their car on a dyno to verify it?). TVR quote 340 BHP, but a typical 5 litre car is around 260-270...
Regards.
Marlon said:
Hi All,
Sorry if this has been discussed already - I do keep half an eye on the forum and haven't seen this tread.
I believe the standard 3R is 352 BHP, but have seen other cars quoted as 385. Is there a factory option to upgrade to 385 BHP? If so, how much is it?
Also, is this a genuine 352/385 BHP (i.e. has anyone put their car on a dyno to verify it?). TVR quote 340 BHP, but a typical 5 litre car is around 260-270...
Regards.
Standard 3R is 352. The 385 engine was quoted originally in a car magazine, but was OPTIONAL not standard. Lee has not yet finalised the official BHP power upgrades for the 3R, so 352 is all that's currently available.
As per all manufacturers, I'm sure Noble's quoted figures are accurate at the flywheel. Dyno's always show less due to losses through the drivetrain.
That's the point... not ALL manufacturers DO quote accurate figures. TVR quote 340 BHP at the flywheel for the 5 litre cars, but the actual figure is anywhere between 260 and 270 bhp AT THE FLYWHEEL. The figure at the wheels is typically around 210 to 220.
I've just had my Griffith 500 significantly up-rated, and still only manage 310 at the flywheel (235 at the wheels). Don't believe what you read in print.
The moto is 'buyer beware' - so I would be interested to hear whether Noble quote a genuine figure or an inflated figure to appear on a par with other manufacturers inflated figures... Lee?
I've just had my Griffith 500 significantly up-rated, and still only manage 310 at the flywheel (235 at the wheels). Don't believe what you read in print.
The moto is 'buyer beware' - so I would be interested to hear whether Noble quote a genuine figure or an inflated figure to appear on a par with other manufacturers inflated figures... Lee?
Marlon said:I'm not trying to stoke any fire here, but read Puma Racing's articles about if you can go from "at the wheels" to "at the flywheel" on a car.
That's the point... not ALL manufacturers DO quote accurate figures. TVR quote 340 BHP at the flywheel for the 5 litre cars, but the actual figure is anywhere between 260 and 270 bhp AT THE FLYWHEEL. The figure at the wheels is typically around 210 to 220.
I've just had my Griffith 500 significantly up-rated, and still only manage 310 at the flywheel (235 at the wheels). Don't believe what you read in print.
The moto is 'buyer beware' - so I would be interested to hear whether Noble quote a genuine figure or an inflated figure to appear on a par with other manufacturers inflated figures... Lee?
www.pumaracing.co.uk/coastdwn.htm
www.pumaracing.co.uk/setup01.htm
To that end I'd never believe any flywheel figures that came from a rolling road dyno. To get the correct figures you have to run an engine dyno!
Rolling roads are great for seeing relative changes, or comparing cars, but gettting absolute figures - hmm......
Oh - and by the way it's a criminal offence to quote misleading figures, punishable by a jail! No caveat emperor applies to the Sales of Goods and Trade Descriptions act!
J
Interesting -
V8 Developments have an engine dyno rather than a RR and thay have (unless I'm very much mistaken) found that TVR engines (certainly the Rover V8) do not produce anywhere near the power claimed. I agree that RR's do vary enormously, but a well calibrated road can give an indicative figure.
Not sure how TVR get away with this - I'm sure there are threads in the TVR forums - but I'd be surprised to find that there isn't a loop-hole being exploited here... Incidentally, the early TVR Cerbera 4.2 is thought to produce the power that TVR claim, but the later 4.2 and 4.5 are (allegedly) not even close!
Having ordered (and therefore driven!) a Noble, it certainly feels faster than my TVR, but it also has a lot of torque that would account for the tremendous exceleration. Top-end power isn't something that most drivers will experience day-to-day, but is important (on the track and in the pub) so I would be interested to know how the figures are derived - particularly if the 385 BHP option is expensive!!!
V8 Developments have an engine dyno rather than a RR and thay have (unless I'm very much mistaken) found that TVR engines (certainly the Rover V8) do not produce anywhere near the power claimed. I agree that RR's do vary enormously, but a well calibrated road can give an indicative figure.
Not sure how TVR get away with this - I'm sure there are threads in the TVR forums - but I'd be surprised to find that there isn't a loop-hole being exploited here... Incidentally, the early TVR Cerbera 4.2 is thought to produce the power that TVR claim, but the later 4.2 and 4.5 are (allegedly) not even close!
Having ordered (and therefore driven!) a Noble, it certainly feels faster than my TVR, but it also has a lot of torque that would account for the tremendous exceleration. Top-end power isn't something that most drivers will experience day-to-day, but is important (on the track and in the pub
) so I would be interested to know how the figures are derived - particularly if the 385 BHP option is expensive!!! Engine dyno, rolling road, kitchen table... the fact is that TVR have, allegedly, quoted some highly optimistic figures for their cars.
As mentioned, a reputable company with a pukka engine dyno have tested many rover V8 engines and (allegedly) found them to be short of the quoted power output by some considerable margin.
I don't know how TVR measure the power of the engine, or whether there is some loop-hole which allows manufacturers to claim power figures that are not repeatable on a rolling road (or engine dyno), but the point is that the figures may be misleading.
I would be interested to know whether anyone has put a Noble on a dyno, that's all!
As mentioned, a reputable company with a pukka engine dyno have tested many rover V8 engines and (allegedly) found them to be short of the quoted power output by some considerable margin.
I don't know how TVR measure the power of the engine, or whether there is some loop-hole which allows manufacturers to claim power figures that are not repeatable on a rolling road (or engine dyno), but the point is that the figures may be misleading.
I would be interested to know whether anyone has put a Noble on a dyno, that's all!
michaels said:
Im just explaining to you about these "So Called" misquoted manufacture figures "Which is punishable by jail" I think not!, Which you know so much about!
The law is the law Michael.
From Trading Standards web site.
Misrepresentation Act 1967
If you have been told something factual about goods that made you decide to buy them, but which turns out to be untrue, they have been misrepresented to you. In most cases, you can terminate the deal and have your money back. This can be a complex area of law, involving different sorts of misrepresentation, as well as differing legal remedies. Also, the responsibility for proving a case (i.e. the 'burden of proof') changes, depending on the sort of misrepresentation. If in doubt, get some advice.
Trade Descrptions Act 1968
Sometimes, if a trader makes a misrepresentation about goods, a criminal offence might be committed under this Act.
The actual act is of course, much longer, but yes, it is true that under the trade descrptions act a criminal offence may have been committed if the goods are missrepresented. And criminal acts are punishable by jail (as opposed to civil acts)
If you don't believe me, ring up your local expert at the trading standards office.
For your bedtime reading you can find the 2001 prosecutions under the TDA where 42 people actually recieved prison sentances, and, shock horror, one successful conviction was brought for the descrption of a new car (Group E - transport) here.
Spooky that isn't it - if you had actually taken the time to look up the facts (you know, those funny little things that are rather pesky but generally easy to find with a little googling) you'd find that miss describing goods is a very serious offence that can land you in jail and/or with a hefty fine, and that it applies to new cars just as much as anything else (cause they even have a little catagory all pre-defined so that missdemeaners can be told that they have been brought up before the beak for a ED offence - just like speeding tickets really.....)
So no - I have absolutly no idea what I am talking about - sorry - I'll just sod off now and talk to myself.....
Some people....
>> Edited by joust to sort out the URL
>> Edited by joust on Wednesday 20th August 21:15
Joust, to spend 2 hours looking for that it just shows you are a very sad man who needs to get out more.joust said:michaels said:
Car Manufacturers dont give false BHP figures, they test the BHP of the engine on a bench WITHOUT the gearbox etc!
[/quote]
So that'll be an engine dyno then? Funny that, I could have sworn I wrote that, oh bu
er me, I did.....[/quote]
Sorry guys, I tend to agree with Joust on this one... it is basically flase representation...
>> Edited by Podie on Thursday 21st August 12:14
Car Manufacturers dont give false BHP figures, they test the BHP of the engine on a bench WITHOUT the gearbox etc! [/quote]
So that'll be an engine dyno then? Funny that, I could have sworn I wrote that, oh bu
er me, I did.....[/quote] Sorry guys, I tend to agree with Joust on this one... it is basically flase representation...
>> Edited by Podie on Thursday 21st August 12:14
** Car Manufacturers dont give false BHP figures, they test the BHP of the engine on a bench WITHOUT the gearbox etc! **
Funny then that for so long all Jap performance cars were quoted as having a output of 280bhp due to the so called 'Gentlemans Agreement' between the jap manufacturers. So you had the J spec Supra TT, Skylines, progression of Evo's and Scoobys all quoting 280bhp - I think not, and know not in the case of the Supra. Ferrari were always notorious in the old days for giving incorrect power figures.
>> Edited by ek993 on Thursday 21st August 12:57
Funny then that for so long all Jap performance cars were quoted as having a output of 280bhp due to the so called 'Gentlemans Agreement' between the jap manufacturers. So you had the J spec Supra TT, Skylines, progression of Evo's and Scoobys all quoting 280bhp - I think not, and know not in the case of the Supra. Ferrari were always notorious in the old days for giving incorrect power figures.
>> Edited by ek993 on Thursday 21st August 12:57
michaels said:
Joust, Why dont you get yourself dont to the court and take some action against Peter Wheeler then? YOU WILL LOOSE, because TVR and every other car company test the BHP of an engine without the gearbox on so they can get the higgest BHP figure possible, but you allready know that being so clever
Sorry - don't ever remember saying I had any problem with what TVR quote for bhp. And, given you are such a smart arse, exactly how do you know that fact? Are you the child of Mr Ford then, or do you design said implements and have sent them? Or, are do you just have a presupposition about how those figures are achieved?
Why don't you seem to be able to follow a thread of a conversation or retain what people say - I'd imagine the conversation down the pub with you would be an expierience. Tis also weird how you haven't revealed in your profile what car you have in your stable - why this passion of slagging off Mr Wheeler's creations???
Transparency is such a see through thing.
J
>> Edited by joust on Thursday 21st August 13:39
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