did I kill my battery?
Discussion
Not driven the beast for some weeks again (must sort this out! 1000 miles in the last 10 months in not acceptable ) 
......and I went out early this morn to get something out the garage and noticed that although I had plugged her into my trickle charger, the plug was not switched on
The car would not unlock, had to use the ninja open method and then alarm went off, then everything went totally dead!
Switched on the charger and it all zoomed into life and the door locks worked etc etc, ignition went on with pumps etc etc.
so, QUESTION IS, will the battery be ok after a long charge or does this type of flattening generally kill them??
also assume that the tracker unit will be spanked too
note to self...................drive my lovely semi-super-car more often!!!
G
......and I went out early this morn to get something out the garage and noticed that although I had plugged her into my trickle charger, the plug was not switched on
The car would not unlock, had to use the ninja open method and then alarm went off, then everything went totally dead!
Switched on the charger and it all zoomed into life and the door locks worked etc etc, ignition went on with pumps etc etc.
so, QUESTION IS, will the battery be ok after a long charge or does this type of flattening generally kill them??
also assume that the tracker unit will be spanked too
note to self...................drive my lovely semi-super-car more often!!!
G
Car lead acid batteries are not "deep cycle" designed.
Automotive batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep cycles if deep cycled, while they may last for thousands of cycles in normal starting use (2-5% discharge).
Things like marine applications, golf buggies, fork lift trucks and electric vehicles use specially designed deep cycle batteries which are designed to be completely discharged before recharging.
Because charging causes excessive heat which can warp the plates, thicker and stronger or solid plate grids are used for deep cycling applications. Normal automotive batteries are not designed for repeated deep cycling and use thinner plates with a greater surface area to achieve high current carrying capacity.
Unfortunatly this means that you will have significantly shortened the useful life of the battery. If it was more than 2 years old I would get it replaced as a matter of course.
J
Automotive batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep cycles if deep cycled, while they may last for thousands of cycles in normal starting use (2-5% discharge).
Things like marine applications, golf buggies, fork lift trucks and electric vehicles use specially designed deep cycle batteries which are designed to be completely discharged before recharging.
Because charging causes excessive heat which can warp the plates, thicker and stronger or solid plate grids are used for deep cycling applications. Normal automotive batteries are not designed for repeated deep cycling and use thinner plates with a greater surface area to achieve high current carrying capacity.
Unfortunatly this means that you will have significantly shortened the useful life of the battery. If it was more than 2 years old I would get it replaced as a matter of course.
J
Only because it was part of my engineering degree.
Leisure batteries are indeed made very differently to car batteries as they are designed to be deep discharged, where as it's assumed that a car battery never drops between 5-10% discharge before the alternator kicks in.
It might be interesting to see if they have changed the composition for these new eco-cars like the new BMWs that disengage the alternator whilst the engine is accelerating. It's unlikely that they would have needed to change it as I can't see you accelerating for long enough to create a significant drain on the battery, but you never know.
You can find more info here
http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/Documen...
I'd just like to point out that I googled that and I don't normally go onto a caravan website!
J
Leisure batteries are indeed made very differently to car batteries as they are designed to be deep discharged, where as it's assumed that a car battery never drops between 5-10% discharge before the alternator kicks in.
It might be interesting to see if they have changed the composition for these new eco-cars like the new BMWs that disengage the alternator whilst the engine is accelerating. It's unlikely that they would have needed to change it as I can't see you accelerating for long enough to create a significant drain on the battery, but you never know.
You can find more info here
http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/Documen...
I'd just like to point out that I googled that and I don't normally go onto a caravan website!
J
Thanks chaps, seems to be taking the charge ok. My charger is not a fancy one so there is no indication of the state of play, but when it was flat and I put the ignition on, there was a fast clicking noise which I think meant that "somethings buggered". Now it seems ok. Hopefully a dry day over the weekend will get things sorted again
G
Justin, your knowledge continues to amaze me!
G
Justin, your knowledge continues to amaze me!
Mr Noble said:
Thanks chaps, seems to be taking the charge ok. My charger is not a fancy one so there is no indication of the state of play, but when it was flat and I put the ignition on, there was a fast clicking noise which I think meant that "somethings buggered". Now it seems ok. Hopefully a dry day over the weekend will get things sorted again
G
Justin, your knowledge continues to amaze me!
Greg buy one of these :G
Justin, your knowledge continues to amaze me!
http://www.vertar.com/ctek/ctek-multi-xs-3600/
It will fast charge, then go in automatic maintenance. It can also help undo damage to a mildly sulphated battery. Its also very small + high efficiency.
Keep my RS on one and its perfect. My battery is verging on shagged mind, but thats life. Still lasts > 2 weeks off charge when I have to. Just barely ever registers as fully charged on the ctek. Been like that for over a year no problem
DanH said:
It will fast charge, then go in automatic maintenance. It can also help undo damage to a mildly sulphated battery. Its also very small + high efficiency.
Hmm. Lots of psuedo science around that.There are two types of degredation in LA batteries. The first is sulfation and the second grid corrosion. Corrosion happens on the positive plate, and sulfation happens on the negative.
Lead-acid batteries generate electricity through a 2xsulphate chemical reaction. To provide power, lead and lead dioxide (the active stuff in the plates) react with sulfuric acid in the electrolyte to generate electrical current.
A fine, amorphous form of lead sulphate is produced by this chemical reaction.
Now, during charging, the somewhat amorphous lead sulphate is essentially converted back to lead, lead dioxide, and sulfuric acid. In other words, the battery works in reverse.
Unfortunately, there is no perfect machine in the real world, and the nasty by-product is during charging some of the sulphates from the discharge cycle "enlarge" to the point where they can't accept energy so they stay on the plate in a very stable crystalline form. Over time these sulphate crystals can build-up until power is reduced, as there is less and less surface area for the chemical reaction to produce the power to take place, but also lead sulphate is a great insulator, raising the internal R of the battery lowering the available current available (V=IR and all that).
To complicate matters even worse I seem to remember there are 5 types of this process; acid stratification; chronic undercharging; period of un-use, leaving things in a discharged state (i.e. more sulfate) and finally ‘dendritic’ sulphation.
Now, these so called battery improvers either use pulse or equalization charging techniques.
In "pulse" technology; very high tension current impulses are produced at infrequent intervals of time during charging process. In "equalization charging" technology peak charging voltage is simply raised.
It is possible that, depending on crystal particle size, some of lead sulphate is converted to sulphuric acid, but probably most of the benefit comes from the physical separation of the crystalline coating due to the vigorous gassing which occurs at such elevated voltages. Essentially the sulphate is 'knocked off' the plates and settles in the bottom of the battery, soon to be replaced.
Unfortunatly both of these effects dramatically increase corrosion, which is actually one of the quickest ways to reduce battery efficiency, as without the plate being there, you can't use it.......
To demonstrate the point, here are three pictures
1) A new plate (at 500x)
2) A sulphated plate
3) A well known, <£100 battery 'conditioner' after "restoration"
Pictures pretty much speak for themselves.
There are chargers that will almost reverse the process, but they cost upwards of £500....
J
Jenx said:
I know why you know so much about batteries and tyres...you used to be a Kwik-fit fitter! 
M.
And he still wears the dungerees, with nothing else on M.
Went to go for a burn earlier and the green light is on on the charger meaning the batt is fine and in "maintain" mode so
Then the heavens opened
It always bloody rains just when I've got a spare hour to go for a drive.
Fingers crossed for the morning!
G
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