decisions, decisions!!!!!
Discussion
How do fellow noble lovers, I am now in a position to buy a serious sports car, for months and months on end my heart has been set on a m12 gto-3, BUT recently BMW's new M3 has tickled my fancy, and basically i would like to know what u guys and girls think are the pro's and con's of both these fantastic cars.
Any helpful comments would be much appreciated.
Many thanks
Sam
>>> Edited by sam21180 on Sunday 6th July 00:33
Any helpful comments would be much appreciated.
Many thanks
Sam
>>> Edited by sam21180 on Sunday 6th July 00:33
One is a tutonic barge derived from a mainstream car - where significant fettling has taken a design designed to do the shopping run and attempted to add some "vavavoom" into it.
The other is a lovingly crafted sports car designed on the priciples of true sports cars from the ground up.
Guess which is which.
J
The other is a lovingly crafted sports car designed on the priciples of true sports cars from the ground up.
Guess which is which.
J
Sam, Read Autocars 'Point to Point' article a couple of weeks ago. Both M3 and Noble M12 included in the test. M3 knocked out very early, only Porsche Turbo with power upgrade kit just beat the M12 to the top slot in that test.
Then look at this months EVO mag where the M12 is up against some serious Track Day kit and the same Porsche Turbo. On the track, the M12 kicks the ass of the Porky.
Also take account that both cars tested were 3.0 ltr M12. The 3R with 6 speed box and LSD is even better.
You better place your order quickly, because when the journalists get their hands on the 3R, the demand for this fantastic car will be greater than ever and the waiting list will just longer and longer.
Then look at this months EVO mag where the M12 is up against some serious Track Day kit and the same Porsche Turbo. On the track, the M12 kicks the ass of the Porky.
Also take account that both cars tested were 3.0 ltr M12. The 3R with 6 speed box and LSD is even better.
You better place your order quickly, because when the journalists get their hands on the 3R, the demand for this fantastic car will be greater than ever and the waiting list will just longer and longer.
Sam,
I unfortunately am not in your envyable position. But If I had the choice it would be the noble every time!
If I could I would get the 3R the new head light arangement looks fantastic I'll take the metalic black one that was at PF please.
ps M3 nice but wouldnt make my list it would be between
Tiv T350 and 3R
I unfortunately am not in your envyable position. But If I had the choice it would be the noble every time!
If I could I would get the 3R the new head light arangement looks fantastic I'll take the metalic black one that was at PF please.
ps M3 nice but wouldnt make my list it would be between
Tiv T350 and 3R
Suggest the following:
1. Take a test drive in the Noble
2. Take a test drive in the M3
3. Go back and take a 2nd test drive in the Noble.
Doing it this way means it'll save making a special trip to the dealers to place your order for an M12
The M3 is good by most standards but the Noble just blows it into the weeds - No competition!
(plus you won't have to deal with any arrogant d
khead BMW salesmen - bonus!)
1. Take a test drive in the Noble
2. Take a test drive in the M3
3. Go back and take a 2nd test drive in the Noble.
Doing it this way means it'll save making a special trip to the dealers to place your order for an M12
The M3 is good by most standards but the Noble just blows it into the weeds - No competition!
(plus you won't have to deal with any arrogant d
khead BMW salesmen - bonus!)Tough decision....
I have an M3 and have for a while hankered after a Noble, so took a test drive a few weeks ago. Firstly the Noble has much more of a sports car feel about it, as you sit low and the car feels wide. This makes you feely instantly excited and first impressions are good. The ride is amazingly supple and the engine sounds great, as I am a sucker for wastegates
After a short while though I was shocked to find that the performance in a straight line does not feel significantly faster than the M3's. Whether it is or not on paper, it just did not feel as crazy as I was expecting. Maybe this is because I also ride a Fireblade and expected the Noble to be more bike like in a straight line.
The other problem I found was that the car grips too much ! An M3 can be made to slide very easily and is great fun for being so exploitable but a Noble just stays planted or spins the inside rear wheel (needs a lsd) and therefore it was not hooligan enough for me.
Finally the other thing that makes an M3 great is it blends in well so you can make rapid progress without attracting attention something that is impossible in a Noble because it looks so darn good
So which would I choose if I had a clean sheet? Well as good as the Noble is, it does not represent to me a huge performance increase over an M3 and therefore I will stick with the jack of all trades M3.
Still would love a Noble but would not have both, so my next option is to start investigating Caterhams
I have an M3 and have for a while hankered after a Noble, so took a test drive a few weeks ago. Firstly the Noble has much more of a sports car feel about it, as you sit low and the car feels wide. This makes you feely instantly excited and first impressions are good. The ride is amazingly supple and the engine sounds great, as I am a sucker for wastegates
After a short while though I was shocked to find that the performance in a straight line does not feel significantly faster than the M3's. Whether it is or not on paper, it just did not feel as crazy as I was expecting. Maybe this is because I also ride a Fireblade and expected the Noble to be more bike like in a straight line.
The other problem I found was that the car grips too much ! An M3 can be made to slide very easily and is great fun for being so exploitable but a Noble just stays planted or spins the inside rear wheel (needs a lsd) and therefore it was not hooligan enough for me.
Finally the other thing that makes an M3 great is it blends in well so you can make rapid progress without attracting attention something that is impossible in a Noble because it looks so darn good
So which would I choose if I had a clean sheet? Well as good as the Noble is, it does not represent to me a huge performance increase over an M3 and therefore I will stick with the jack of all trades M3.
Still would love a Noble but would not have both, so my next option is to start investigating Caterhams
As someone who ran both for a while i have to agree that they are very different propositions.
The M3 is an amazing bit of kit that can fulfill the role of mile-muncher and be a prety formidable sports car. However i have to disagree with the previous poster vis a vis performance. I found that after a few weeks learning the M12 it made the M3 feel like a real slouch. I agree that with the traction control off it can be pretty tail happy but for out and out performance it's in an altogether different league. On the country roads near me the Noble just makes me grin like an idiot and without even trying is probably 10-15 mph quicker at every point, it communicates everything back to teh driver and the satisfaction of getting those bends right is just fantastic. I think the biggest problem coming from the M3 was actually realising that you have to lose your preconceptions about what a road car is capable of and retune yourself to the fact that the M12 is a law unto itself
It would be nice to have both but in the end i let the M3 go as i found the Noble made a better than expected daily driver and aside from long journeys that M3 would always lose out when it cane to teh fun factor. However now that residuals are starting to fall away i would definitely consider picking up another M3 in the not to distant future......
The M3 is an amazing bit of kit that can fulfill the role of mile-muncher and be a prety formidable sports car. However i have to disagree with the previous poster vis a vis performance. I found that after a few weeks learning the M12 it made the M3 feel like a real slouch. I agree that with the traction control off it can be pretty tail happy but for out and out performance it's in an altogether different league. On the country roads near me the Noble just makes me grin like an idiot and without even trying is probably 10-15 mph quicker at every point, it communicates everything back to teh driver and the satisfaction of getting those bends right is just fantastic. I think the biggest problem coming from the M3 was actually realising that you have to lose your preconceptions about what a road car is capable of and retune yourself to the fact that the M12 is a law unto itself
It would be nice to have both but in the end i let the M3 go as i found the Noble made a better than expected daily driver and aside from long journeys that M3 would always lose out when it cane to teh fun factor. However now that residuals are starting to fall away i would definitely consider picking up another M3 in the not to distant future......
The "lack of speed" is an obvious comment for the first time driver, mainly because most people don't actually press the accellerator right the way down in the Noble the first time they drive it (similar comments have been made about TVR's). Trust me - if you actually press it *right* down the car seriously leaps forward (I'm guilty - I actually only used about 75% for the first two weeks!)
However, you should also appreciate that speed is a relative thing, and is based upon a series of inputs to your brain, not only based on the visual cues throgh your eyes. The Noble is so well sorted that it actually feels a lot slower than it is, mainly because the other senses (such as wandering, suspension noise, tyre squeal etc.) - the Noble is absent of all of these and so it won't really compare to an M3 on a "one off" drive.
However, it's very interesting if you drive a Noble a lot and then go back down to a fast luxo barge. It positivly feels slow - I know, I've tried it.
As I originally said, they have come at the equation from two totally different angles, and so you have to appreciate that to appreciate both.
As for being a hooligan - you just wern't trying! But that's the problem - to loose grip in an M12 you have to exceed 1.2G average, 1.8G peak - an M3 barely gets over 1G average and so will "let go" sooner. A sliding squealing car looks quicker, but actually it isn't. Personally I keep my sideways moments for the track as I prefer to be 100% in control on the road....
One last thing - some interesting times for you to ponder
Source: EVO
Circuit: Bedford Autodrome West Circuit
M3: 1.26.85
M12: 1.18.50
8.35 second difference (or 10.6% quicker if you can't do the sums
)....
J
However, you should also appreciate that speed is a relative thing, and is based upon a series of inputs to your brain, not only based on the visual cues throgh your eyes. The Noble is so well sorted that it actually feels a lot slower than it is, mainly because the other senses (such as wandering, suspension noise, tyre squeal etc.) - the Noble is absent of all of these and so it won't really compare to an M3 on a "one off" drive.
However, it's very interesting if you drive a Noble a lot and then go back down to a fast luxo barge. It positivly feels slow - I know, I've tried it.
As I originally said, they have come at the equation from two totally different angles, and so you have to appreciate that to appreciate both.
As for being a hooligan - you just wern't trying! But that's the problem - to loose grip in an M12 you have to exceed 1.2G average, 1.8G peak - an M3 barely gets over 1G average and so will "let go" sooner. A sliding squealing car looks quicker, but actually it isn't. Personally I keep my sideways moments for the track as I prefer to be 100% in control on the road....
One last thing - some interesting times for you to ponder
Source: EVO
Circuit: Bedford Autodrome West Circuit
M3: 1.26.85
M12: 1.18.50
8.35 second difference (or 10.6% quicker if you can't do the sums
).... J
It was foot to the floor, you can trust me on that one.
The reason I felt it was not quick enough was simply that I expected it to flatten an M3 performance wise ie be reaching Fireblade type performance in a straight line and it just did not do this.
As for it not being hooligan enough on the road there is no point for me in having to go faster than I already do to break traction, as my licence is in enough jeopardy as it is.
As for track times they are completely irrelevant as it is the driver that makes the difference, hence the fact that a Noble at Bruntingthorpe recently held me up no end !!!
Fortunately he lent the car to his mate who took me out for a spin in it and it fairly flew...lol
The reason I felt it was not quick enough was simply that I expected it to flatten an M3 performance wise ie be reaching Fireblade type performance in a straight line and it just did not do this.
As for it not being hooligan enough on the road there is no point for me in having to go faster than I already do to break traction, as my licence is in enough jeopardy as it is.
As for track times they are completely irrelevant as it is the driver that makes the difference, hence the fact that a Noble at Bruntingthorpe recently held me up no end !!!
Fortunately he lent the car to his mate who took me out for a spin in it and it fairly flew...lol
Nothing wrong with my maths as it is 10.6% *more* [which the last time I looked was the correct interpretation of quicker as to equate quicker with less would be something very strange indeed ].
(GM vs markup as my old greengrocer used to say...)
Take the point about drivers, but the EVO times are all done by one of two drivers who (apparently) have been proven to be very similar in a wide range of cars, so on the face of it they are directly comparable.
J
>> Edited by joust on Monday 7th July 14:01
]. (GM vs markup as my old greengrocer used to say...
) Take the point about drivers, but the EVO times are all done by one of two drivers who (apparently) have been proven to be very similar in a wide range of cars, so on the face of it they are directly comparable.
J
>> Edited by joust on Monday 7th July 14:01
Circuit: Bedford Autodrome West Circuit
M3: 1.26.85
M12: 1.18.50
8.35 second difference (or 10.6% quicker if you can't do the sums
Correct me if I am wrong and I am sure you will but if the M12 is 8.35 secs quicker it is 8.35/86.85 or 9.6% quicker than the car you are comparing it to ie the M3.
M3: 1.26.85
M12: 1.18.50
8.35 second difference (or 10.6% quicker if you can't do the sums
Correct me if I am wrong and I am sure you will but if the M12 is 8.35 secs quicker it is 8.35/86.85 or 9.6% quicker than the car you are comparing it to ie the M3.
You lot will never make business people - don't you know about markups and gross margins?? The M12 speed is your base time
The M3 speed is your final time
To get to the M3 speed you would have to *add* 8.35 seconds to the M12 speed.
This amount as a % to the original amount equates to the *additional* time (i.e. how much faster it is in % terms)
(final time - base time) / base time = (86.85 - 78.50)/78.50 = 10.6%
If you have been thinking for all these years that something you buy at X (the M12 time) and sell at Y (the BMW time) is only marked up by 9% then no wonder you can't afford as many cars as you would like!
J
[opps - missed a space]
>> Edited by joust on Monday 7th July 17:18
sam21180:
Having done a direct comparison between a supercharged M3 and the M12 3.0tt, I'd have to say that even the blown M3 was about 9/10ths of the M12 and didn't corner nearly as well. I think the only reason to consider the M3 would be if you have (small)kids, otherwise it's the M12 for certain. At least BMW was sporting enough to provide a traction-control off button....
TM
Having done a direct comparison between a supercharged M3 and the M12 3.0tt, I'd have to say that even the blown M3 was about 9/10ths of the M12 and didn't corner nearly as well. I think the only reason to consider the M3 would be if you have (small)kids, otherwise it's the M12 for certain. At least BMW was sporting enough to provide a traction-control off button....
TM
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