Suspension bushes
Discussion
Adrian W said:
I think that on the road I would be a good way of screwing the ride up.
and just think of the ball joints etc.I'm not getting something here. Loads of talk about fitting this suspension mod and some new shocks etc etc but very little talk about what 'problem' people are trying to fix.
If, as I suspect, people are trying to make the car more and more track focussed, they're in for a shock in the wallet.
In my view, if you have a 2.5 / 3.0 / 3R and you want more grip, yes you'll need to change the shocks and springs because the way you're going to get more grip (in the dry) is use the M400 tyres. Standard suspension on these cars loads up to the bump stops if you don't. Want yet more grip? Get the camber changed.
If you have an M400, change the camber.
DO THESE THINGS FIRST. IT'S BEEN TESTED. IT WORKS. Fecking around ramdomly changing this and that could, as Adrian says, just mess it all up.
I have no intention of fecking about randomly. I will be approaching everything systematically, but the first thing to check is the condition of the bushes, then the dampers and springs and then get the whole lot cambered up and aligned properly.
If there is more movement than the great God Lee intended than a polyflex bush of similar shore hardness rating will be fitted. I have used polyflex/superflex on all my cars for the last x years and they provide a more consistent and durable item than factory made rubber oe stuff (normally).
I will not be fitting anything to b*gger up the ride/handling compromise I currently have as it's pretty damn good. If they do not work I will revert to oe stuff, but I would be surprised if that is the case, and if it is I will be the first to tell people not to do it.
If there is more movement than the great God Lee intended than a polyflex bush of similar shore hardness rating will be fitted. I have used polyflex/superflex on all my cars for the last x years and they provide a more consistent and durable item than factory made rubber oe stuff (normally).
I will not be fitting anything to b*gger up the ride/handling compromise I currently have as it's pretty damn good. If they do not work I will revert to oe stuff, but I would be surprised if that is the case, and if it is I will be the first to tell people not to do it.
ThatPhilBrettGuy said:
DO THESE THINGS FIRST. IT'S BEEN TESTED. IT WORKS. Fecking around ramdomly changing this and that could, as Adrian says, just mess it all up.
I wasn't planning on doing anything "randomly" I'm just looking for info as to what is available and details of those mods/settings that have ACTUALLY been tested and proven to work before I make any changes to the car. Not fix, improve.
Clearly there is room for improvement as you say, "there are things that have been tested that work". I was hoping that people on here would be forthcoming in assisting a new owner such as myself understand the car and provide some valuable information on what works on the car and what doesn't.
Clearly there is room for improvement as you say, "there are things that have been tested that work". I was hoping that people on here would be forthcoming in assisting a new owner such as myself understand the car and provide some valuable information on what works on the car and what doesn't.
Noblescort said:
Not fix, improve.
Clearly there is room for improvement as you say, "there are things that have been tested that work". I was hoping that people on here would be forthcoming in assisting a new owner such as myself understand the car and provide some valuable information on what works on the car and what doesn't.
Dear All,Clearly there is room for improvement as you say, "there are things that have been tested that work". I was hoping that people on here would be forthcoming in assisting a new owner such as myself understand the car and provide some valuable information on what works on the car and what doesn't.
I have to say I get a distinct feel that newer owner/members are getting a bit of a snarlish response on this forum from solme of the older lags. To be as offish about a bloke making a genuine suggestion about a mod that is generaly recognised in a whole load of makes and marques to imprive handling and responsivness without loss of ride comfort is beginning to look a bit churlish. Implying that the car has no areas that need or could still be improved is simply ridiculous. Read the other threads that list endless mods and improvements, now where would we be if I hadn't worked with Matt on his original IC upgrade, where would we be if I hadn't roundly criticised the brakes on the cars, where would we be if people hadn't lunched so many diffs, where would we be if no one had thought about a different type of exhaust? The list is endless. All of these arose because some poor muppet had the temerity to ask "what if?".
I think improving the bushing might be well worth while and knowing some of the materials now available is pretty likely to improve the car. I'd say go for it and I appolgise for the response you've had so far.
Regards
Paul C
paulcundy said:
Noblescort said:
Not fix, improve.
Clearly there is room for improvement as you say, "there are things that have been tested that work". I was hoping that people on here would be forthcoming in assisting a new owner such as myself understand the car and provide some valuable information on what works on the car and what doesn't.
Dear All,Clearly there is room for improvement as you say, "there are things that have been tested that work". I was hoping that people on here would be forthcoming in assisting a new owner such as myself understand the car and provide some valuable information on what works on the car and what doesn't.
I have to say I get a distinct feel that newer owner/members are getting a bit of a snarlish response on this forum from solme of the older lags. To be as offish about a bloke making a genuine suggestion about a mod that is generaly recognised in a whole load of makes and marques to imprive handling and responsivness without loss of ride comfort is beginning to look a bit churlish. Implying that the car has no areas that need or could still be improved is simply ridiculous. Read the other threads that list endless mods and improvements, now where would we be if I hadn't worked with Matt on his original IC upgrade, where would we be if I hadn't roundly criticised the brakes on the cars, where would we be if people hadn't lunched so many diffs, where would we be if no one had thought about a different type of exhaust? The list is endless. All of these arose because some poor muppet had the temerity to ask "what if?".
I think improving the bushing might be well worth while and knowing some of the materials now available is pretty likely to improve the car. I'd say go for it and I appolgise for the response you've had so far.
Regards
Paul C
Yup, great post. Now, what are we trying to fix again? All your points Paul of what has been improved are perfectly true, but we all knew they were weak points.
If people want to experiment, fine, for once it's not my money. But I just think putting development effort and money in should target a problem and I honestly can't see one in this case, and if there is one someone please answer my question!
If people want to experiment, fine, for once it's not my money. But I just think putting development effort and money in should target a problem and I honestly can't see one in this case, and if there is one someone please answer my question!
ThatPhilBrettGuy said:
Yup, great post. Now, what are we trying to fix again? All your points Paul of what has been improved are perfectly true, but we all knew they were weak points.
If people want to experiment, fine, for once it's not my money. But I just think putting development effort and money in should target a problem and I honestly can't see one in this case, and if there is one someone please answer my question!
err not quite true, whilst some (i.e. the brakes) were obvious weak points others ( i.e. the IC, fuel pump, fuel pump wiring etc) were not so obvious. Do you remember the months of posts back and forth about whether "heat soak" was a reality or not? If people want to experiment, fine, for once it's not my money. But I just think putting development effort and money in should target a problem and I honestly can't see one in this case, and if there is one someone please answer my question!
This guys come late to the forum, all the easy stuff has been done before, he has as far as I can recollect been the first to suggest a possible upgrade to the suspension bushes. Well I do not know whether it will work or not but we all know that in general the fittings on our cars are not of the highest quality. Does anyone know anything about the bushes? What we certainly do know is that many OEM bushes can be improved on.
Sometimes the "problem" doesnt become obvious until you've tried to improve on the accepted norm. Prior to the americans dynoing and documenting the far from 400 BHP per tonne of the M400 no one was aware of the "problem" that has resulted in Richard, Adrian and Ash's cars soultions.
You've merely repeated the same failing I first illustrated - nothing ventured nothing gained.
The answer that should have come from this forum was; "Good question mate. no one knows anything about the bushes, just about everything else on the suspension has been changed / modded / upgraded. No one has thought to change those. Have a go and tell us how you get on."
Regards
Paul (I feel like one of those grumpy old men off the telly) C
But the flip side is that people don't do the tried and tested changes first isn't it? We know they work. Many people have done them, are happy with them and they haven't caused issues.
Maybe the best thing to do is just update the FAQ with the known performance changes and leave it at that.
Roush and I learnt an awful lot when they put the second one of Adrian's type engine in my 3R. I'm suggesting that people should look at those changes first, that's all.
P.S. The M400 problem was known, if not publicly not long after the first cars came out. I'll leave it at that (PH rules etc etc).
Maybe the best thing to do is just update the FAQ with the known performance changes and leave it at that.
Roush and I learnt an awful lot when they put the second one of Adrian's type engine in my 3R. I'm suggesting that people should look at those changes first, that's all.
P.S. The M400 problem was known, if not publicly not long after the first cars came out. I'll leave it at that (PH rules etc etc).
My M400 made 371bhp when new, as did several others, when we reviewed the suspension setup we dismissed polyurethane bushes as unnecessary and more likely to cause compliance issues on a read car, this went with altering the ride height and junking the power steering.
Not wishing to seen dismissive (again) I am quite happy to stand back and watch people screw up a well balanced good handling road car or be proved wrong,
Lee’s attention to detail was a little lacking but he does know how to produce a car that handles far beyond the abilities of most people that buy them.
Not wishing to seen dismissive (again) I am quite happy to stand back and watch people screw up a well balanced good handling road car or be proved wrong,
Lee’s attention to detail was a little lacking but he does know how to produce a car that handles far beyond the abilities of most people that buy them.
I have a question as always. Kinda related too for a change 
I find that when driving i lose confidence in the front end bacause the initial turn in feels vague. After you have committed it feels very well planted, and long sweeping bends at 120-130 are truly terrifying as i know it could do alot more. Same on both S03's and F1's so not tyres. Do the M400's have more initial feel into corners? Mine feels like it turns, unbalances, settles the weight, bites. I am a shit driver but try to be smooth and confident so maybe it is my style in question and not the car.
I find that when driving i lose confidence in the front end bacause the initial turn in feels vague. After you have committed it feels very well planted, and long sweeping bends at 120-130 are truly terrifying as i know it could do alot more. Same on both S03's and F1's so not tyres. Do the M400's have more initial feel into corners? Mine feels like it turns, unbalances, settles the weight, bites. I am a shit driver but try to be smooth and confident so maybe it is my style in question and not the car. I respect Roush and certainly wuld ask them before I did anything that might cause an issue. My car is in a million pieces in their workshop at the moment so I am aware of their abilities.
I do respect what the 'older' forum members hae to say as much has been learned by either bitter experience or speaking to those in the know, however to say that bushes of the same shore hardness rating will screw the handling up begs me to ask the question WHY? The only property they have that would be different would be poitential durability and consistency.
I have to say bushing is not high on my priority list as the car appears to be more than adequate in that area, but I am the sort of person that collects data and ideas for when I need them.
Richard
I do respect what the 'older' forum members hae to say as much has been learned by either bitter experience or speaking to those in the know, however to say that bushes of the same shore hardness rating will screw the handling up begs me to ask the question WHY? The only property they have that would be different would be poitential durability and consistency.
I have to say bushing is not high on my priority list as the car appears to be more than adequate in that area, but I am the sort of person that collects data and ideas for when I need them.
Richard
I've never found better location of the suspension to ever screw up the handling as issues such as springing , roll bars and dampers are unaffected by better location of the suspension components , they simply keep the geometry under better control . Even a car with all "rose" jointed suspension can be pleasant on the road , it just clonks too much for most people and there are issues of maintenance . Flame on ! .....
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