Upgrades - first impressions
Discussion
Short first impressions of the upgrade
Engine upgrade: Pulls much harder - but has a different throttle response to the old engine - I'll get used to it - well worth it. All sorts of new tubes all over the place - god knows what they do but the end result is good!
LSD: What can I say - it positivly feels like you have a catapult now slinging you out of the corners. "Tramping" in 1st has totally gone as well (I drove over a road where I know it does it twice just to check) (where the wheels skip raising the revs on bumpy ground)
New exhaust - lovely deep burble, with a "screaming" overtone - almost "standard Tubi" in sound -
. Looks a lot nicer as well!
Track day sump - I'll find out on the 4th...
Was it worth the total cost - yes!
More on my website in the next few days (along with some pictures)
J
Engine upgrade: Pulls much harder - but has a different throttle response to the old engine - I'll get used to it - well worth it. All sorts of new tubes all over the place - god knows what they do but the end result is good!
LSD: What can I say - it positivly feels like you have a catapult now slinging you out of the corners. "Tramping" in 1st has totally gone as well (I drove over a road where I know it does it twice just to check) (where the wheels skip raising the revs on bumpy ground)
New exhaust - lovely deep burble, with a "screaming" overtone - almost "standard Tubi" in sound -
. Looks a lot nicer as well! Track day sump - I'll find out on the 4th...
Was it worth the total cost - yes!
More on my website in the next few days (along with some pictures)
J
Cost - err - a lot (yes - a lot)! I'll detail it in my web site (when I've got over the shock of it 
)
Balance - better overall - feels much more planted. Obviously I haven't been able to "hoon" it on public roads (I'm far to responsible/sensible/boring) so I'll report back as soon as it's been around the track.
J
) Balance - better overall - feels much more planted. Obviously I haven't been able to "hoon" it on public roads (I'm far to responsible/sensible/boring) so I'll report back as soon as it's been around the track.
J
Joust - has the new exhaust got rid of the booming resonance at 80 mph on the motorway??
Also - sorry to be a pain - what were the timescales re: deciding to get the work done, to back from the factory??
I quite fancy the 6 speed box as well, but if you're saying it cost a 'lot' then I'd best be saving my pennies
Also - sorry to be a pain - what were the timescales re: deciding to get the work done, to back from the factory??
I quite fancy the 6 speed box as well, but if you're saying it cost a 'lot' then I'd best be saving my pennies
Just put the full story on www.lotus-elise.org.uk/noble/diary.htm
Here it is if people want to quote it for discussion.
Engine
The engine feels very very different. Upon initial take-up when cold, the engine is much more hesitant than the previous one, but as soon as the temperature gauge gets to around 40-50 degrees things start to smooth out - guess that I'll just have to do the normal 2-3 minutes idle before leaving, so no real issue there.
On the road, once warm, and with a few hundred miles of gentle motorway traffic under its belt, I decided to start to stretch its legs (fortunately the new engine had been run in already for me, and so Tony said there was no need to do any formal running in, just to build things up slowly).
Pushing half throttle down on the motorway causes a very strange sensation, with the turbo whizzing around to 0.9-1.0 bar boost for a second or so and then settling back down to the 0.5-0.6 range as normal. The effect of this is to provide much better take-up of the engine - you no longer feel any lag of any sort - a much improved scenario.
Waiting until I came off a long motorway jaunt down the M25/M4, I decided to try a few full throttle actions to see what the difference was. Ensuring the road ahead was nice and clear, a full throttle shove in third saw the turbo's winding up to 0.9-1.0 bar and then staying there! Yes - this is no "over boost" system, this is a full on 0.9ish bar turbo engined car now. The launch is truly unbelievable - it is so much stronger in pulling than the previous engine (and that was hardly slow....). A few more tries of this showed that it was no fluke - just prod the loud pedal full on for super turbo launch mode!
A by product of the upgrade seems to be the initial overboost up to 0.9 smoothes out the turbo delivery at less than full throttle applications - which should make the car more tractable in the wet.
Hot starting seems to be just as problematical as before - still it seems to catch eventually and I am sure I'll get used to it.
This engine now shows up even more that 1st gear is way too short for the engine. 6 speed gearbox next on the list then (once the bank balance has recovered!).
Finally, on the down run, the car seems to like "popping and banging" a considerable amount - could be a symptom of the new exhaust as well. It started to worry me (I thought something had fallen off the first time it did it) at first, but once I worked out what it was I've now got my own pop-bang Ur Quattro imitator!
LSD
Fortunately (or otherwise), it pissed it down with rain on the way down to Oxfordshire for a friends wedding, so I had a chance to start to find out how the LSD has improved things. In the dry the impression is one of a catapult slingshotting the car out the corner, and the removal of "tramping" over bumpy surfaces (where one wheel looses grip with the ground and starts to spin all the power away).
Taking the bride and groom out for a "spin" allowed me to explore the LSD a bit more. The ground was 50% wet and 50% dry - a scenario that used to upset the car a little bit, generating squirm and, if pushed, oversteer coming out of corners. Well - it's all gone. The ability to enter a corner and then nail the throttle on the way out without any hint of oversteer or loss of traction is truly amazing. A second by product now seems to be that on braking, you get significant assistance from the LSD at the rear. Owning a Quattro I know the benefit of not dumping the clutch when you brake, as if the car starts to lock all 4 wheels then it has two options, to transfer the braking power around to slow the car, or to stall the engine. It's this combination that makes the Quattro such a devastating rally drive in slippery conditions in that the car tends to take the slowing down route as stalling an engine is not an easy thing to do.
With the LSD it's now impossible to lock both wheels at the rear again without stalling the engine if you leave the clutch out - this means that in corners the car feels much more stable under braking at the rear assuming you are in a relatively low gear and keep your foot off the clutch.
Exhaust
At £1200+VAT this was one of my most extravagant upgrades, but the noise is just lovely. The rear of the car now looks much better. At low revs (2000) there is significant booming undertones, but after around 2500-5000 it starts to perform a "tubi style" howl. Pushing it right up through the rev range after the long bedding in motorway run gave a lovely howling note all the way up to the 6000ish rpm mark.
Going through the odd tunnel gave a serious resonant sound through the open window - Mr TVR's watch out!!
However, on the motorway, at minimal throttle positions, the car seems much quieter that the old engine - the "booming" that could be provoked in the old exhaust seems to have all but gone. The tyre noise on the road surface is now the biggest problem for noise.
Track Day Sump
After the Noble Autocar day at Bedford on the 4th June I'll tell you if the engine lets go or not!
Summary
Was the cost worth it? Err - yes! Despite the rather large bill in total, the car is transformed from it's previous incarnation. I'll keep an eye on the cold running of the car to see if that's a problem. If you are looking for an upgrade for your car, then I'd suggest the LSD as the first starting place, then the turbo upgrade (if you have a 2.5) and then the exhaust given the cost of it (or perhaps fabricate your own if you are clever enough - me I'm just too lazy and always go for "factory" upgrades.
Here it is if people want to quote it for discussion.
Engine
The engine feels very very different. Upon initial take-up when cold, the engine is much more hesitant than the previous one, but as soon as the temperature gauge gets to around 40-50 degrees things start to smooth out - guess that I'll just have to do the normal 2-3 minutes idle before leaving, so no real issue there.
On the road, once warm, and with a few hundred miles of gentle motorway traffic under its belt, I decided to start to stretch its legs (fortunately the new engine had been run in already for me, and so Tony said there was no need to do any formal running in, just to build things up slowly).
Pushing half throttle down on the motorway causes a very strange sensation, with the turbo whizzing around to 0.9-1.0 bar boost for a second or so and then settling back down to the 0.5-0.6 range as normal. The effect of this is to provide much better take-up of the engine - you no longer feel any lag of any sort - a much improved scenario.
Waiting until I came off a long motorway jaunt down the M25/M4, I decided to try a few full throttle actions to see what the difference was. Ensuring the road ahead was nice and clear, a full throttle shove in third saw the turbo's winding up to 0.9-1.0 bar and then staying there! Yes - this is no "over boost" system, this is a full on 0.9ish bar turbo engined car now. The launch is truly unbelievable - it is so much stronger in pulling than the previous engine (and that was hardly slow....). A few more tries of this showed that it was no fluke - just prod the loud pedal full on for super turbo launch mode!
A by product of the upgrade seems to be the initial overboost up to 0.9 smoothes out the turbo delivery at less than full throttle applications - which should make the car more tractable in the wet.
Hot starting seems to be just as problematical as before - still it seems to catch eventually and I am sure I'll get used to it.
This engine now shows up even more that 1st gear is way too short for the engine. 6 speed gearbox next on the list then (once the bank balance has recovered!).
Finally, on the down run, the car seems to like "popping and banging" a considerable amount - could be a symptom of the new exhaust as well. It started to worry me (I thought something had fallen off the first time it did it) at first, but once I worked out what it was I've now got my own pop-bang Ur Quattro imitator!
LSD
Fortunately (or otherwise), it pissed it down with rain on the way down to Oxfordshire for a friends wedding, so I had a chance to start to find out how the LSD has improved things. In the dry the impression is one of a catapult slingshotting the car out the corner, and the removal of "tramping" over bumpy surfaces (where one wheel looses grip with the ground and starts to spin all the power away).
Taking the bride and groom out for a "spin" allowed me to explore the LSD a bit more. The ground was 50% wet and 50% dry - a scenario that used to upset the car a little bit, generating squirm and, if pushed, oversteer coming out of corners. Well - it's all gone. The ability to enter a corner and then nail the throttle on the way out without any hint of oversteer or loss of traction is truly amazing. A second by product now seems to be that on braking, you get significant assistance from the LSD at the rear. Owning a Quattro I know the benefit of not dumping the clutch when you brake, as if the car starts to lock all 4 wheels then it has two options, to transfer the braking power around to slow the car, or to stall the engine. It's this combination that makes the Quattro such a devastating rally drive in slippery conditions in that the car tends to take the slowing down route as stalling an engine is not an easy thing to do.
With the LSD it's now impossible to lock both wheels at the rear again without stalling the engine if you leave the clutch out - this means that in corners the car feels much more stable under braking at the rear assuming you are in a relatively low gear and keep your foot off the clutch.
Exhaust
At £1200+VAT this was one of my most extravagant upgrades, but the noise is just lovely. The rear of the car now looks much better. At low revs (2000) there is significant booming undertones, but after around 2500-5000 it starts to perform a "tubi style" howl. Pushing it right up through the rev range after the long bedding in motorway run gave a lovely howling note all the way up to the 6000ish rpm mark.
Going through the odd tunnel gave a serious resonant sound through the open window - Mr TVR's watch out!!
However, on the motorway, at minimal throttle positions, the car seems much quieter that the old engine - the "booming" that could be provoked in the old exhaust seems to have all but gone. The tyre noise on the road surface is now the biggest problem for noise.
Track Day Sump
After the Noble Autocar day at Bedford on the 4th June I'll tell you if the engine lets go or not!
Summary
Was the cost worth it? Err - yes! Despite the rather large bill in total, the car is transformed from it's previous incarnation. I'll keep an eye on the cold running of the car to see if that's a problem. If you are looking for an upgrade for your car, then I'd suggest the LSD as the first starting place, then the turbo upgrade (if you have a 2.5) and then the exhaust given the cost of it (or perhaps fabricate your own if you are clever enough - me I'm just too lazy and always go for "factory" upgrades.
Joust, you are a top poster! Always well written and 'real'.
I'd be interested to know if Noble (or John Noble Motorsport) gave you indicative output figures for the upgraded turbo.
Also, have you managed to get oversteer at all since fitting the LSD? This was discussed on a previous post, but now you have one fitted we can stop speculating. Part of the magic of the Noble for me is it's incredible oversteering abilities, but going for the 3R with LSD I'm hoping it still retains these characteristics.
I'd be interested to know if Noble (or John Noble Motorsport) gave you indicative output figures for the upgraded turbo.
Also, have you managed to get oversteer at all since fitting the LSD? This was discussed on a previous post, but now you have one fitted we can stop speculating. Part of the magic of the Noble for me is it's incredible oversteering abilities, but going for the 3R with LSD I'm hoping it still retains these characteristics.
Nice write up Joust. Sounds like the LSD is a winner.
I've got to speak to the factory about my 6speed box on Tuesday so i'll try and get the lowdown on your engine upgrades. I'd been advised by JNM that they couldn't push the boost further under warranty without the forged pistons etc............sounds like that situation must have changed ? I'm still trying to arrange the RR dyno with HR Owen if your keen to see what the mods have achieved thus far ?
Guy - Any developments on your new sideline in exhaust manufacture ? I could do without the cost that Joust had to incur
I've got to speak to the factory about my 6speed box on Tuesday so i'll try and get the lowdown on your engine upgrades. I'd been advised by JNM that they couldn't push the boost further under warranty without the forged pistons etc............sounds like that situation must have changed ? I'm still trying to arrange the RR dyno with HR Owen if your keen to see what the mods have achieved thus far ?
Guy - Any developments on your new sideline in exhaust manufacture ? I could do without the cost that Joust had to incur
I think its about 340bhp (don't know actual figures - sorry).
I'm not one for getting oversteer, particularly on roads. Call me an old boring fart
but I prefer to be in total control of the car, and on tracks oversteer just scrubs speed - but a little bit of it is fun 
I'll be playing big time at the Autocar Noble trackday on the 4th June - I'll post some summaries after that of it's oversteer capabilities.
One thing is sure, the hint of oversteer has now gone from it in the wet....
J
I'm not one for getting oversteer, particularly on roads. Call me an old boring fart
but I prefer to be in total control of the car, and on tracks oversteer just scrubs speed - but a little bit of it is fun I'll be playing big time at the Autocar Noble trackday on the 4th June - I'll post some summaries after that of it's oversteer capabilities.
One thing is sure, the hint of oversteer has now gone from it in the wet....
J
You can "spectate" for £25 a person from the "spectator" area.
https://secure.palmersport.co.uk/autocar/checksub.asp
There is *one* space left for a car, or if you want I can put you down as a spectator for myself.
To quote from their website
Autocar Experience Spectator @ £25.00 each, inc vat.
Spectator with viewing from the hospitality suite and food from the barbecue (This does not give access to the pit lane) Max of 1 per order.
J
https://secure.palmersport.co.uk/autocar/checksub.asp
There is *one* space left for a car, or if you want I can put you down as a spectator for myself.
To quote from their website
Autocar Experience Spectator @ £25.00 each, inc vat.
Spectator with viewing from the hospitality suite and food from the barbecue (This does not give access to the pit lane) Max of 1 per order.
J
More on LSD
It certainly works in the wet! I've just been up and down Caterham Bypass (A23 next to Catherham) with the road nice and wet (it naturally dries a lot slower and has the odd natural spring that comes out over it). The rear did get a little near the edge on the way up, but I was easily matching the dry speed and the car felt very planted.
One side effect seems to be a nice "clunk" on liftoff (not a clunk that sounds like something's wrong, just a clunk of something mechanical working), and also a little squirm when lifiting off the power on a corner that wasn't there before (so maybe lift off oversteer is going to be slightly bigger issue). Guess I'll just have to keep my foot down rather than lifting off. It was quite a "hmm - that's a wiggle" the first time, the second was nothing to worry about. With the car behaving slightly differently I'm going to just have to get used to the effect of the LSD.
J
It certainly works in the wet! I've just been up and down Caterham Bypass (A23 next to Catherham) with the road nice and wet (it naturally dries a lot slower and has the odd natural spring that comes out over it). The rear did get a little near the edge on the way up, but I was easily matching the dry speed and the car felt very planted.
One side effect seems to be a nice "clunk" on liftoff (not a clunk that sounds like something's wrong, just a clunk of something mechanical working), and also a little squirm when lifiting off the power on a corner that wasn't there before (so maybe lift off oversteer is going to be slightly bigger issue). Guess I'll just have to keep my foot down rather than lifting off. It was quite a "hmm - that's a wiggle" the first time, the second was nothing to worry about. With the car behaving slightly differently I'm going to just have to get used to the effect of the LSD.
J
joust said: More on LSD
It certainly works in the wet! I've just been up and down Caterham Bypass (A23 next to Catherham) with the road nice and wet (it naturally dries a lot slower and has the odd natural spring that comes out over it). The rear did get a little near the edge on the way up, but I was easily matching the dry speed and the car felt very planted.
One side effect seems to be a nice "clunk" on liftoff (not a clunk that sounds like something's wrong, just a clunk of something mechanical working), and also a little squirm when lifiting off the power on a corner that wasn't there before (so maybe lift off oversteer is going to be slightly bigger issue). Guess I'll just have to keep my foot down rather than lifting off. It was quite a "hmm - that's a wiggle" the first time, the second was nothing to worry about. With the car behaving slightly differently I'm going to just have to get used to the effect of the LSD.
J
So are we saying the car is going to be more tricky to drive with the LSD or without? Is oversteer without the LSD quicker to onset, but more controllable when it does arrive, but with the LSD you have a higher limit before oversteer arrives, but when it does you have to be a more experienced 'wheelman' to catch it??
Hmmmm, trying to work out whether this should be another option I get on mine.
Thanks
Eric
ek993 said: (>)
> So are we saying the car is going to be more tricky to drive with the LSD or without?
Nope - just different.
> Is oversteer without the LSD quicker to onset, but more controllable when it does arrive, but with the LSD you have a higher limit before oversteer arrives, but when it does you have to be a more experienced 'wheelman' to catch it??
Don't think so. If anything the LSD will make it easier to catch as you don't get power transfer happening to the spinning wheel so suddenly (effectivly when you light up the rear inside you loose power to the outside, and hence the car will start to change it's direction)
> Hmmmm, trying to work out whether this should be another option I get on mine.
If you are going to do a track day, then really you have little choice - according to the factory it transforms the car. The only thing is that it will change the nature of the car on the road to a standard car, but many proponents of LSD's say that they are a "safety" feature and hence once you have worked out that it just does it differnt then you'll be fine.
Anyway, at the end of the day if you are braking traction on a road you are probably being a little bit silly!!!
J
> So are we saying the car is going to be more tricky to drive with the LSD or without?
Nope - just different.
> Is oversteer without the LSD quicker to onset, but more controllable when it does arrive, but with the LSD you have a higher limit before oversteer arrives, but when it does you have to be a more experienced 'wheelman' to catch it??
Don't think so. If anything the LSD will make it easier to catch as you don't get power transfer happening to the spinning wheel so suddenly (effectivly when you light up the rear inside you loose power to the outside, and hence the car will start to change it's direction)
> Hmmmm, trying to work out whether this should be another option I get on mine.
If you are going to do a track day, then really you have little choice - according to the factory it transforms the car. The only thing is that it will change the nature of the car on the road to a standard car, but many proponents of LSD's say that they are a "safety" feature and hence once you have worked out that it just does it differnt then you'll be fine.
Anyway, at the end of the day if you are braking traction on a road you are probably being a little bit silly!!!
J
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