M12 GTO 3R questions?
Discussion
Does anyone know anything more than is readily available about this model:
1. What delivery times has anyone been quoted.
2. Any engine differences expected over the GTO 3?
3. Will the 6-speed gearbox be an option?
4. What difference with having LSD make?
5. DO you think that it will possible to change the wheels from black to standard?
Thanks.
1. What delivery times has anyone been quoted.
2. Any engine differences expected over the GTO 3?
3. Will the 6-speed gearbox be an option?
4. What difference with having LSD make?
5. DO you think that it will possible to change the wheels from black to standard?
Thanks.
I'll have a stab...
1. The early 3R ordered are currently on their way over from SA. Delivery times will no doubt be the same as the rest of the M12 range, around 6 months but the factory is expanding.
2. Not that I know of, however, you can specify options (e.g. Forged pistons) to the current build if you want and these will still apply.
3. Yes, it is an option on all models. Cheaper to get it fitted at build though. Same goes for the baffled sump option.
4. In theory it should make the car a little more controlable, however a different driving style will be required compared to the non-LSD car.
5. Ask the factory. You can get spare sets of wheels and tyres from them, useful if you do lots of track days.
1. The early 3R ordered are currently on their way over from SA. Delivery times will no doubt be the same as the rest of the M12 range, around 6 months but the factory is expanding.
2. Not that I know of, however, you can specify options (e.g. Forged pistons) to the current build if you want and these will still apply.
3. Yes, it is an option on all models. Cheaper to get it fitted at build though. Same goes for the baffled sump option.
4. In theory it should make the car a little more controlable, however a different driving style will be required compared to the non-LSD car.
5. Ask the factory. You can get spare sets of wheels and tyres from them, useful if you do lots of track days.
actech said: I'll have a stab...
1. The early 3R ordered are currently on their way over from SA. Delivery times will no doubt be the same as the rest of the M12 range, around 6 months but the factory is expanding.
2. Not that I know of, however, you can specify options (e.g. Forged pistons) to the current build if you want and these will still apply.
3. Yes, it is an option on all models. Cheaper to get it fitted at build though. Same goes for the baffled sump option.
4. In theory it should make the car a little more controlable, however a different driving style will be required compared to the non-LSD car.
5. Ask the factory. You can get spare sets of wheels and tyres from them, useful if you do lots of track days.
Thanks Actech,
BTW - Mole Valley told me 10-12 months for delivery!
Delivery times are all about expectation setting. Some dealers will tell you there's a 6 months wait in order to get your order. They then tell you it's slipped a couple of months, and another couple of months, etc. You are then 
with the dealer, but they have your order.
Other dealers tell you a year, then tell you it's coming early. You are then
at the dealer, and they have your repeat business.
They are all made at the same factory, and AFAIK there's no way to jump the queue. I'd take a stab at about 9 months.
with the dealer, but they have your order. Other dealers tell you a year, then tell you it's coming early. You are then
at the dealer, and they have your repeat business. They are all made at the same factory, and AFAIK there's no way to jump the queue. I'd take a stab at about 9 months.
stuh said: Re the LSD. I think this option depends on whether you are gonna track the car ? Suspect that the wet handling characteristics for road use might make it a better option without ?
Please expand Stuh. I would have thought that the LSD would improve drivability in the wet by preventing any excessive thrust from spinning a wheel? Mind you, I know sod all about these devices so please correct me!
Well as I understand it. (And I might be wrong as well)
Without the LSD if you nail the trottle in a corner in the wet (as well as in the dry only harder) the diff will tend to put all the power on the the inside wheel because it's easier to turn as there is weight on it and it has less traction. This means that the outside wheel will remain in traction with the road surface and prevent you from spinning the car.
However with the LSD as soon as it detects that the inside wheel is spinning i.e. lost traction with the road surface it will transfer power to the other wheel and if you are really nailing the throttle it will then start spinning as well. The rest is obvious - you then end up changing direction rather rapidly unless your very quick with the wheel and the throttle.
The advantage to the LSD is baically more grip so if you get it right and nail the throttle at the right time coming out of a bend you will get more grip and more acceleration....
>> Edited by guysh on Thursday 15th May 10:25
Without the LSD if you nail the trottle in a corner in the wet (as well as in the dry only harder) the diff will tend to put all the power on the the inside wheel because it's easier to turn as there is weight on it and it has less traction. This means that the outside wheel will remain in traction with the road surface and prevent you from spinning the car.
However with the LSD as soon as it detects that the inside wheel is spinning i.e. lost traction with the road surface it will transfer power to the other wheel and if you are really nailing the throttle it will then start spinning as well. The rest is obvious - you then end up changing direction rather rapidly unless your very quick with the wheel and the throttle.
The advantage to the LSD is baically more grip so if you get it right and nail the throttle at the right time coming out of a bend you will get more grip and more acceleration....
>> Edited by guysh on Thursday 15th May 10:25
Sounds about right to me Guy.
The LSD simply finds the wheel with the most grip and applies power to it, this however requires a different driving style. Like you said the LSD will allow you to take corners faster, the faster you go the higher the lateral forces and inertia generated, there comes a time when the laws of physics say "right you've reached your limit", at this point the car will let go. As you are doing this at a greater pace than usual things happen a lot quicker, and it's not just you reacting the LSD will to, creating a different effect to a non limited slip diff, which if you are not ready for it will lose you time through the corner.
The LSD simply finds the wheel with the most grip and applies power to it, this however requires a different driving style. Like you said the LSD will allow you to take corners faster, the faster you go the higher the lateral forces and inertia generated, there comes a time when the laws of physics say "right you've reached your limit", at this point the car will let go. As you are doing this at a greater pace than usual things happen a lot quicker, and it's not just you reacting the LSD will to, creating a different effect to a non limited slip diff, which if you are not ready for it will lose you time through the corner.
actech said: I'll have a stab...
1. The early 3R ordered are currently on their way over from SA. Delivery times will no doubt be the same as the rest of the M12 range, around 6 months but the factory is expanding.
3. Yes, it is an option on all models. Cheaper to get it fitted at build though. Same goes for the baffled sump option.
5. Ask the factory. You can get spare sets of wheels and tyres from them, useful if you do lots of track days.
Just to add...
1. Spoke to HR Owen yesterday and apparently the first 3R's should arrive in this country Tuesday of next week with 3-4 being built per week.
3. Upgrade at build stage for 6-speed gearbox (with LSD)+ baffled sump is £2002.25 inc VAT.
5. When I visited the factory a couple of months ago I was basically told that I could have whatever wheels I wanted in whatever colour!
Leigh
The factory LSD has had a lot of work done on it to minimise the sort of "lift off oversteer" effect that you can get with LSD's.
In the wet, when one wheel starts to spin, the other wheel with have more power put down onto it. Only *if* that wheel can't cope with it will both wheels start to spin.
However, that doesn't do anything to the forward traction of the car. Remember oversteer is a result of there being too much sideways force being generated for the tyres to control at the *rear* - with both wheels spinning the sideways force actually decreases (as there is no longer any forward F being applied apart from the minimial spinning rubber on the tarmac), and so F actually starts to decrease. As long as therefore you can point the front wheels in the correct direction it can actually make the car more controlable as long as you are *smooth* with your driving in the wet.
If you think of it another way, if you nail the throttle on a wet surface an open diff will allow the wheels to spin at vastly different speeds as grip changes, the back of the car will wobble unstably around and a spin is likely. With an LSD both wheels turn at a similar speed, if the car starts moving sideways the effect mentioned above works to pull the car straight (assuming you are apply the correct correction). Thus a "negative feedback" effect keeps you in a straight line - which you'll then need to correct using the front wheels to actually get yourself around the corner (along with backing off on the power gently).
Different driving technique - yes, more dangerous - not in my eyes (famous last words!!!.......)
J
In the wet, when one wheel starts to spin, the other wheel with have more power put down onto it. Only *if* that wheel can't cope with it will both wheels start to spin.
However, that doesn't do anything to the forward traction of the car. Remember oversteer is a result of there being too much sideways force being generated for the tyres to control at the *rear* - with both wheels spinning the sideways force actually decreases (as there is no longer any forward F being applied apart from the minimial spinning rubber on the tarmac), and so F actually starts to decrease. As long as therefore you can point the front wheels in the correct direction it can actually make the car more controlable as long as you are *smooth* with your driving in the wet.
If you think of it another way, if you nail the throttle on a wet surface an open diff will allow the wheels to spin at vastly different speeds as grip changes, the back of the car will wobble unstably around and a spin is likely. With an LSD both wheels turn at a similar speed, if the car starts moving sideways the effect mentioned above works to pull the car straight (assuming you are apply the correct correction). Thus a "negative feedback" effect keeps you in a straight line - which you'll then need to correct using the front wheels to actually get yourself around the corner (along with backing off on the power gently).
Different driving technique - yes, more dangerous - not in my eyes (famous last words!!!.......)
J
I share your concerns. One of the most enjoyable aspects of the car is that a fairly inexperienced driver like myself can push the car on track and in the wet with a fair degree of confidence. I guess the only way to really tell is to drive a car with an LSD. Hopefully an upcoming Noble day with give us this opportunity ?
Also i rather bizarrely recieved an invoice for my GTC order last week together with a build number. This would have been fine apart from the fact that i sent them the cheque before the motorshow at the NEC ! Hopefully this means that it's going to be arriving soon
Also i rather bizarrely recieved an invoice for my GTC order last week together with a build number. This would have been fine apart from the fact that i sent them the cheque before the motorshow at the NEC ! Hopefully this means that it's going to be arriving soon
Depends what you mean by "let go".
If you mean traction - no - a normal car will "let go" far quicker, as it will just spin the inside wheel.
If you mean oversteer, then the LSD car will "go" far later, with the effect of the LSD meaning that the LSD car will tend to plough on in a "straight line" whereas the non car will tend to plough on in an "arc" (and a wobbly one at that!).
It's just "different" - most people though regard a LSD as a traction enhancing device.
J
If you mean traction - no - a normal car will "let go" far quicker, as it will just spin the inside wheel.
If you mean oversteer, then the LSD car will "go" far later, with the effect of the LSD meaning that the LSD car will tend to plough on in a "straight line" whereas the non car will tend to plough on in an "arc" (and a wobbly one at that!).
It's just "different" - most people though regard a LSD as a traction enhancing device.
J
Hi there,
1. I ordered my 3R from Kerridges about 3 weeks ago, I was originally told 8-9 months until delivery (essentially December) but when I got my build number (R87) I was told that it would be delivered at the end of October (roughly 6 months). So I think the delivery time is generally overstated just so as people are happy that they come earlier than expected, rather than peeved when they are late!
2. IIRC the engine will be essentially the same, there is the possibility of an upgrade to 365bhp if the gearbox allows. (this i'm not sure about)
3. as above 6 speeds are an option (£1500 at build) sump is about £500, I think
4. feck knows, people above seem to know!
5. Yes, and I have ordered this too. I wasn't too sure about the anthracite with azure blue (though it looks good on the press piccies with the graphite colour), so I plumped for the silver ones instead.
Hope thats a help
Sam
p.s. thanks for the photos
>> Edited by s3am on Thursday 15th May 14:56
1. I ordered my 3R from Kerridges about 3 weeks ago, I was originally told 8-9 months until delivery (essentially December) but when I got my build number (R87) I was told that it would be delivered at the end of October (roughly 6 months). So I think the delivery time is generally overstated just so as people are happy that they come earlier than expected, rather than peeved when they are late!
2. IIRC the engine will be essentially the same, there is the possibility of an upgrade to 365bhp if the gearbox allows. (this i'm not sure about)
3. as above 6 speeds are an option (£1500 at build) sump is about £500, I think
4. feck knows, people above seem to know!
5. Yes, and I have ordered this too. I wasn't too sure about the anthracite with azure blue (though it looks good on the press piccies with the graphite colour), so I plumped for the silver ones instead.
Hope thats a help
Sam
p.s. thanks for the photos
>> Edited by s3am on Thursday 15th May 14:56
s3am said: Hi there,
1. I ordered my 3R from Kerridges about 3 weeks ago, I was originally told 8-9 months until delivery (essentially December) but when I got my build number (R87) I was told that it would be delivered at the end of October (roughly 6 months). So I think the delivery time is generally overstated just so as people are happy that they come earlier than expected, rather than peeved when they are late!
2. IIRC the engine will be essentially the same, there is the possibility of an upgrade to 365bhp if the gearbox allows. (this i'm not sure about)
3. as above 6 speeds are an option (£1500 at build) sump is about £500, I think
4. feck knows, people above seem to know!
5. Yes, and I have ordered this too. I wasn't too sure about the anthracite with azure blue (though it looks good on the press piccies with the graphite colour), so I plumped for the silver ones instead.
Hope thats a help
Sam
p.s. thanks for the photos
>> Edited by s3am on Thursday 15th May 14:56
Sam,
Once you ordered the "3" how much time did you get to make decisions and/or changes to colour and specification?
Rob
Rob,
When I spoke to Kerridges about the options it seemed fairly laissez faire at the moment becasue I don't think the car will go into build until three months (?) before the delivery date. So at the moment they don't need a firm decision for a little while yet, although I will be getting the 'box and sump. I imagine you can even change your mind about the colour up to a certain point, becasue the waiting list is still quite long.
As for exactly how long you have to change/make up your mind, I don't know.
Sorry!
Sam
When I spoke to Kerridges about the options it seemed fairly laissez faire at the moment becasue I don't think the car will go into build until three months (?) before the delivery date. So at the moment they don't need a firm decision for a little while yet, although I will be getting the 'box and sump. I imagine you can even change your mind about the colour up to a certain point, becasue the waiting list is still quite long.
As for exactly how long you have to change/make up your mind, I don't know.
Sorry!
Sam
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