Noble on a Track Day
Discussion
Hi folks,
Well, I thought I'd be brave and take my Noble out on track despite the warnings of oil starvation etc. Before going, I make sure the oil was right on the max mark, and checked it regularly throughout the day. I went to Bedford Autodrome (South West circuit), which doesn't have too many long corners, and has plenty of straights between them to allow things to settle, and stuck to short sessions of 10-15 minutes with 30 minutes between them so that I didn't overstress things. Here is the account of my day.
First session. The track was slightly damp, and I was getting used to the car. Got stuck behind a couple of Cosworths, and started cursing the lack of LSD as their 4WD out of some corners was rather more effective than my 1WD, and I was having to wait an age to get on the power. After several laps, they finally took heed of the blue flags and let me through. Half a lap later, I was getting into things a bit more, and thought I'd smoked my inside rear tyre coming out of a corner, but then it continued to smoke, and looked like it was coming from the front, so I pulled over quickly to see what had happened. As it turned out, a small hose had popped off the radiator, and my front left wheel arch was getting a much needed steam clean. Anyway, we had fortunately spotted this early, and water temp was still normal, so I got a tow back to the pits and spent the next hour topping it up and making sure there were no air locks in the system.
Having done this, we were back out on track again, and all was fine. The track was a bit drier, and we were starting to motor. The Noble was the fastest thing out there apart from a couple of Radicals, and we were hitting 145mph down the back straight. The brakes didn't inspire much confidence though, and started getting decidedly mushy despite me doing my best to be easy on them. In one session, we were coming up to the left hander that doesn't have any run-off, and my brake pedal was to the floor (though it was slowing the car), and I figured it was time to come in. That was after only 10 minutes.
From this point on, the brakes were really pretty bad, and I was getting a bruise on my right foot from heel-and-toeing due to the brake pedal being so far down and the accelerator too high.
Towards the end of the day, I got into the car after it had cooled down and I could only select 2nd gear or neutral and couldn't move across the gate at all. We opened the back up, and all seemed fine there, and with a bit of wiggling, everything suddenly came back to normal. This happened a couple of times later - always upon beginning a new session, and never during a session.
Finally, I went out and after 3 laps or so, a nasty noise started coming from the back, so I cruised in, and the verdict of the various engineers there was main bearing failure :-( One of the guys was astonished that there is no oil temp or pressure gauge in the car, and also pointed out that the oil is too thin, and we should be running a 10W60 for track days. Maybe that's something Lee should consider in his search for a solution.
Anyway, I guess I'll be contacting the factory tomorrow to see what they'll do. Wish me luck!
Adrian
Well, I thought I'd be brave and take my Noble out on track despite the warnings of oil starvation etc. Before going, I make sure the oil was right on the max mark, and checked it regularly throughout the day. I went to Bedford Autodrome (South West circuit), which doesn't have too many long corners, and has plenty of straights between them to allow things to settle, and stuck to short sessions of 10-15 minutes with 30 minutes between them so that I didn't overstress things. Here is the account of my day.
First session. The track was slightly damp, and I was getting used to the car. Got stuck behind a couple of Cosworths, and started cursing the lack of LSD as their 4WD out of some corners was rather more effective than my 1WD, and I was having to wait an age to get on the power. After several laps, they finally took heed of the blue flags and let me through. Half a lap later, I was getting into things a bit more, and thought I'd smoked my inside rear tyre coming out of a corner, but then it continued to smoke, and looked like it was coming from the front, so I pulled over quickly to see what had happened. As it turned out, a small hose had popped off the radiator, and my front left wheel arch was getting a much needed steam clean. Anyway, we had fortunately spotted this early, and water temp was still normal, so I got a tow back to the pits and spent the next hour topping it up and making sure there were no air locks in the system.
Having done this, we were back out on track again, and all was fine. The track was a bit drier, and we were starting to motor. The Noble was the fastest thing out there apart from a couple of Radicals, and we were hitting 145mph down the back straight. The brakes didn't inspire much confidence though, and started getting decidedly mushy despite me doing my best to be easy on them. In one session, we were coming up to the left hander that doesn't have any run-off, and my brake pedal was to the floor (though it was slowing the car), and I figured it was time to come in. That was after only 10 minutes.
From this point on, the brakes were really pretty bad, and I was getting a bruise on my right foot from heel-and-toeing due to the brake pedal being so far down and the accelerator too high.
Towards the end of the day, I got into the car after it had cooled down and I could only select 2nd gear or neutral and couldn't move across the gate at all. We opened the back up, and all seemed fine there, and with a bit of wiggling, everything suddenly came back to normal. This happened a couple of times later - always upon beginning a new session, and never during a session.
Finally, I went out and after 3 laps or so, a nasty noise started coming from the back, so I cruised in, and the verdict of the various engineers there was main bearing failure :-( One of the guys was astonished that there is no oil temp or pressure gauge in the car, and also pointed out that the oil is too thin, and we should be running a 10W60 for track days. Maybe that's something Lee should consider in his search for a solution.
Anyway, I guess I'll be contacting the factory tomorrow to see what they'll do. Wish me luck!
Adrian
I spoke to Tony at the factory today. The engine has gone off to be rebuilt, and will be back at the end of the week. However, the new sumps have not yet been tested (engine out job) and the new LSD's are not going to arrive until end of April (engine out job again), so it looks like they're going to keep the car until May so we don't need to keep taking the engine out.
The moral of the story is that if you want the new sump and an LSD, best to get them both done at the same time...
The moral of the story is that if you want the new sump and an LSD, best to get them both done at the same time...
Talking about reliability, I do not think you could compare a 911 (or any large volume sports car for that matter) to a car like the Noble - ever.
Small volume manufacturers will ultimately never be able to offer "complete" (relatively speaking) reliabilty, simple because they won't have the money to test millions of miles in differing environments - manufacturers like Porsche do.
That doesn't say that they don't have issues (see E46 M3), however, it does happen very, very rarely. Especially when you are talking 911's.
Ultimately, if you are driving an out of the ordinary machine (which in turn most oftenly come from small volume manufacturers) you'll probably have to expect that kind of thing to a ceratin degree (and only to a ceratin degree). I think in this case it was probably a combination of various things all happening at the wrong time - and ultimately bad luck to some extend.
Hope you get it fixed, soon.
All the best,
Felix.
Small volume manufacturers will ultimately never be able to offer "complete" (relatively speaking) reliabilty, simple because they won't have the money to test millions of miles in differing environments - manufacturers like Porsche do.
That doesn't say that they don't have issues (see E46 M3), however, it does happen very, very rarely. Especially when you are talking 911's.
Ultimately, if you are driving an out of the ordinary machine (which in turn most oftenly come from small volume manufacturers) you'll probably have to expect that kind of thing to a ceratin degree (and only to a ceratin degree). I think in this case it was probably a combination of various things all happening at the wrong time - and ultimately bad luck to some extend.
Hope you get it fixed, soon.
All the best,
Felix.
actech said: The M12 IS, a "real track weapon", Mardlin was just unlucky when his went at Bedford. The Porsche 911 is just as likely to blow an engine as a Noble and for the money I'd know what I'd choose! Oh, thats right, I've already chosen!
All 911's have a dry sump system, which means you arent likely to have the same problems with oil as below.
In addition they have a temp and pressure gauge.
To sort this out it seems that a noble needs a baffled sump as a minimum and an extra gauge.
Bennno
Pressure guage is a bit of a red herring - if you are constantly looking at that to see if things are OK you would be a down right danger on a track, and I wouldn't want you anywhere near me. To see if there is/was a problem you would need a full digital data logger installed, and 911's can have those fitted just as easily/hard as my Noble can (and I would imagine the Noble would actually be somewhat cheaper to have it done given the engine is actually accessable!!!! 
)
As for the sump issue - lets get this totally in perspective. A few, yes a few, cars have had issues. Many many more have had absolutly no problems - some with over 50,000 miles of track use being totally thrashed by jurnos and professional drivers alike.
Noble is a small manufacturer. To compare the car to a Porsche 911 is fundamentally flawed. The 911 has undergone £100,000,000's of development costs to take it from where it was (a pretty unreliable, fall apart machine) to one of the most well engineered beasts today. It has had 100's, probably 1000's of highly qualified, experienced and skilled engineers working on it.
The Noble is the creation of one mans genius, and a handful of engineers that provide support for Lee's stuning chassis and car engineering. It hasn't undergone a 5 year development, 1,000,000 miles of testing, retesting and re-engineering, and £100,000,000's of expense just to move the car on a fraction as each 911 version has effectivly done.
If you want a tutonic barge, then buy a 911 (but to get one with even a rats chance of matching the Noble on the road or track you'll have to spend twice as much and put up with the porsche dealer experience).
If you want a superb engineered car where you can pop into the factory on a Saturday morning and chat for a hour, two hours or even more with the person that designed it, created it and is working his arse off to improve it, then buy a Noble or any of the other cars that embody all that is great about the british motor industry (TVR, Ultima, Caterham etc. etc.).
Me - I went for both. I've got the X5 which takes me in total comfort from A to B in "point and she goes there" mode, and the Noble (plus the other two
) for when I want to actually *drive* a car!
The sump issue is being fixed so that all drivers that want can have full, total and complete warranty cover for any track day use. I've seen the sump baffle, and it's a fine piece of engineering.
How many other manufacturers can you ring the *factory* mid week - explain a problem you had on the track/road, they tell you to come in and you get it fixed that weekend by the same engineers that built the car.
The experience, the car, and the whole thing is in no-way comparable to any "mass" produced car. If you want what mass production offers (and what it doesn't) then fine - if you want something that is just pure magic then choose a Noble.
Remember no-one forces you to buy the car you want, and no-one forces you to hang onto a car that you don't want to keep - market forces will always dictate what is a success and what is a failure - but given the number of repeat orders that Lee has on his books for 3, 3R's, GTC's and 3T's from his existing base I would summise that perhaps Lee has created something very special that some people just will never appreciate???
J
) As for the sump issue - lets get this totally in perspective. A few, yes a few, cars have had issues. Many many more have had absolutly no problems - some with over 50,000 miles of track use being totally thrashed by jurnos and professional drivers alike.
Noble is a small manufacturer. To compare the car to a Porsche 911 is fundamentally flawed. The 911 has undergone £100,000,000's of development costs to take it from where it was (a pretty unreliable, fall apart machine) to one of the most well engineered beasts today. It has had 100's, probably 1000's of highly qualified, experienced and skilled engineers working on it.
The Noble is the creation of one mans genius, and a handful of engineers that provide support for Lee's stuning chassis and car engineering. It hasn't undergone a 5 year development, 1,000,000 miles of testing, retesting and re-engineering, and £100,000,000's of expense just to move the car on a fraction as each 911 version has effectivly done.
If you want a tutonic barge, then buy a 911 (but to get one with even a rats chance of matching the Noble on the road or track you'll have to spend twice as much and put up with the porsche dealer experience).
If you want a superb engineered car where you can pop into the factory on a Saturday morning and chat for a hour, two hours or even more with the person that designed it, created it and is working his arse off to improve it, then buy a Noble or any of the other cars that embody all that is great about the british motor industry (TVR, Ultima, Caterham etc. etc.).
Me - I went for both. I've got the X5 which takes me in total comfort from A to B in "point and she goes there" mode, and the Noble (plus the other two
) for when I want to actually *drive* a car! The sump issue is being fixed so that all drivers that want can have full, total and complete warranty cover for any track day use. I've seen the sump baffle, and it's a fine piece of engineering.
How many other manufacturers can you ring the *factory* mid week - explain a problem you had on the track/road, they tell you to come in and you get it fixed that weekend by the same engineers that built the car.
The experience, the car, and the whole thing is in no-way comparable to any "mass" produced car. If you want what mass production offers (and what it doesn't) then fine - if you want something that is just pure magic then choose a Noble.
Remember no-one forces you to buy the car you want, and no-one forces you to hang onto a car that you don't want to keep - market forces will always dictate what is a success and what is a failure - but given the number of repeat orders that Lee has on his books for 3, 3R's, GTC's and 3T's from his existing base I would summise that perhaps Lee has created something very special that some people just will never appreciate???
J
As One said: Talking about reliability, I do not think you could compare a 911 (or any large volume sports car for that matter) to a car like the Noble - ever.
Oh - I don't know. 3 recalls already on the X5 in just a year (which had a devlopment budget of 100's of millions), two of which could actually have killed me are not exactly what I would call "reliability".
That doesn't say that they don't have issues (see E46 M3), however, it does happen very, very rarely. Especially when you are talking 911's.
Compare that to my Elise (3 over the 4 years of ownership, one of which could have been fatal) and the Noble (one problem - fix already done) gives better odds with the Noble. In my mind the problems are just different - with Noble its likely to be something problematic with an engineering solution, with BMW its likely to be something fundamental that has a serious impact as so many of the "engineering" issues have been engineered out.
Thanks for making the point though Felix - given you are a small manufcaturer (albeit not a British one :giggle: )
J
joust said: Pressure guage is a bit of a red herring - if you are constantly looking at that to see if things are OK you would be a down right danger on a track, and I wouldn't want you anywhere near me.
Hmm. In which case don't bother entering classic or historic racing! Drivers in those vehicles have to keep an eye on the pressure - it's more important than the rev counter. And we seem to manage not to hit one another most of the time... (or used to - speaking as an ex-DB4/5/6 racer
Bennno, Agree the conditions are different but 911's and other cars for that matter do fail on track days for a number of different reasons. So the Noble is no different. Basic rule is that if you are going to do a track day, whatever make of car, make sure you throughly check it over before and after the event.
J, Well put and totally agree. I've been up to the factory a few times now and have always received a warm welcome.
J, Well put and totally agree. I've been up to the factory a few times now and have always received a warm welcome.
Ok a oil pressure light, great big red one in the middle of the rev counter like a 911.
I am all for the noble and think I might have one next time around.
My t350 has a big digital display which flashes up a warning if the oil pressure drops.
All the Noble needs is something to alert the driver if there is an oil problem.
Bennno
I am all for the noble and think I might have one next time around.
My t350 has a big digital display which flashes up a warning if the oil pressure drops.
All the Noble needs is something to alert the driver if there is an oil problem.
Bennno
Cars are just getting more and more complicated these days - hence more faults will occur. Joust, I actually know of someone who broke down twice with the new 7 series - the same day, and in two different cars...
Statistically, the number of recalls by major manufacturers increase year by year, so it won't be the last car you broke down in / had to have it fixed etc.
It didn't sound like I'm making up excuses did it !? Well, I'm not...
Statistically, the number of recalls by major manufacturers increase year by year, so it won't be the last car you broke down in / had to have it fixed etc.
It didn't sound like I'm making up excuses did it !? Well, I'm not...
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