A little bit technical
Discussion
Hi, looking for a little bit of info on the M12 GTO Duratec Engines and Engine management system used in the Novel, and I was wondering if anyone here could help me...before I go pester the factory 
After a few recent 'incident's' I'm contemplating moving on from my current toy (a highly modified Impreza) to a Noble. It's dawned on me that to go any further with the Scoob will now invlove spending a fair amount of money on an engine build, and that this money could go towards something alittle more special...like a Noble
I know that although I should be happy with the car in standard from it won't be long before the engineer in me will want to tinker, it happened with the Scoob big time and I know I wouldn't be able to resist!
So, does anyone know what engine management system the new M12 GTO 3 is running and does the engine get rebuilt with uprated rods and pistons as standard?
If your wondering, I'm a bit of a boostaholic and 0.8 bar is no where near enough for a Garrett GT25 turbo it should be more like 1.5 bar...then again a nice pair of GT25/35 hybrids would be even more fun
Cheers for your input!
After a few recent 'incident's' I'm contemplating moving on from my current toy (a highly modified Impreza) to a Noble. It's dawned on me that to go any further with the Scoob will now invlove spending a fair amount of money on an engine build, and that this money could go towards something alittle more special...like a Noble
I know that although I should be happy with the car in standard from it won't be long before the engineer in me will want to tinker, it happened with the Scoob big time and I know I wouldn't be able to resist!
So, does anyone know what engine management system the new M12 GTO 3 is running and does the engine get rebuilt with uprated rods and pistons as standard?
If your wondering, I'm a bit of a boostaholic and 0.8 bar is no where near enough for a Garrett GT25 turbo it should be more like 1.5 bar...then again a nice pair of GT25/35 hybrids would be even more fun
Cheers for your input!
Limiting factor on the engines is the gearbox, not the engine itself. To that end, your first port of call would be a new gearbox before you started fettling the engine.
Also, have you actually driven a M12? From your comments I take it you haven't - compared to a scooby (even a heavily modified one) you'll find that it is "plenty enough" without any playing around. Yesterday I was getting power oversteer in 4th when overtaking a car - an interesting experience I can tell you, and mine is *only* a 2.5l......
You would need to be in 600+bhp land to even come close to an M12 in a scooby, and then you would probably still not keep up....
J
Also, have you actually driven a M12? From your comments I take it you haven't - compared to a scooby (even a heavily modified one) you'll find that it is "plenty enough" without any playing around. Yesterday I was getting power oversteer in 4th when overtaking a car - an interesting experience I can tell you, and mine is *only* a 2.5l......
You would need to be in 600+bhp land to even come close to an M12 in a scooby, and then you would probably still not keep up
.... J
Cheers for the input chaps...
J, nope I haven't driven one, I'm going to wait until the weather is much better, the roads are far to greasy for my liking at the moment
I wasn't thinking of modding one straight out of the box, I was planning ahead, becasue I know what I'm like, I'll get 'used' to it and want that bit more...anyway I'll need the power to make up for my lack of driving skills
You would be surprised what a seriously modded scoob goes like, I've already got a simliar power to weight as the 3 litre cars (if the rollers are to be belived that is) but I am hampered by a 4 wheel drive system and the losses that brings
Still in know I could eek 600 brake out a of Scoob based engine, but the costs involved have made me realise I could sell the scoob and put that money towards getting something a little more interesting!
I was thinking about the gearbox myself earlier today, is it a standard Ford box in there? Have Quaife been anywhere near it?
Jim, I think I'll be having a word with the engine builders if I do start seriously getting the urge
>> Edited by Slooby on Monday 3rd March 00:42
J, nope I haven't driven one, I'm going to wait until the weather is much better, the roads are far to greasy for my liking at the moment
I wasn't thinking of modding one straight out of the box, I was planning ahead, becasue I know what I'm like, I'll get 'used' to it and want that bit more...anyway I'll need the power to make up for my lack of driving skills
You would be surprised what a seriously modded scoob goes like, I've already got a simliar power to weight as the 3 litre cars (if the rollers are to be belived that is) but I am hampered by a 4 wheel drive system and the losses that brings
Still in know I could eek 600 brake out a of Scoob based engine, but the costs involved have made me realise I could sell the scoob and put that money towards getting something a little more interesting! I was thinking about the gearbox myself earlier today, is it a standard Ford box in there? Have Quaife been anywhere near it?
Jim, I think I'll be having a word with the engine builders if I do start seriously getting the urge
>> Edited by Slooby on Monday 3rd March 00:42
The gearbox is the standard Ford product, an MTX75, therefore a potential achilles heel. However, with the curent 340bhp it seems to be fairing well and I've not heard of any major failures yet. Noble have been doing testing with other gearboxes mainly because the MTX75 has been "melting" when they tune the engine.
There was talking of 6 speed and a possible sequential box probably from Quaife or Hewland but so far nothing official from the factory.
The ECU on the 3.0l I think is the same one as TVR use now, sure I've read it somewhere but can't find it!
Anthony.
There was talking of 6 speed and a possible sequential box probably from Quaife or Hewland but so far nothing official from the factory.
The ECU on the 3.0l I think is the same one as TVR use now, sure I've read it somewhere but can't find it!
Anthony.
But that doesn't change the fact that the scooby chassis isn't a patch on the Noble's. Unless you are just solely interested in quater miles, a scooby isn't going to touch a M12 regardless of how much power it has down some twisties.
Slooby said:You would be surprised what a seriously modded scoob goes like, I've already got a simliar power to weight as the 3 litre cars (if the rollers are to be belived that is) but I am hampered by a 4 wheel drive system and the losses that brings
J
Ah, so it is the MTX75...Quaife offer some bits for that, well at least their brochure says they do...just like it's been saying for 3 years that there's an uprated syncro kit available for the Scoob which no one's ever seen 
It's lloking promising on the tinkering front then
Incidentally the gearbox is a weak link on the Scoob as well, I'm on my third at the moment, Syncros first (common fault on the 98) then more recently I snapped a selector rod
Chassis wise, for a 4 door family saloon car running mcpherson struts the scoob isn't too bad, no match for the Noble in standard form, but with a bit of work with dampers, springs, ride height, geometry and bushes it can be improved quite a lot...so much so that I was able to get well away from a certain supercharged Exiege last time I went to Donnington but I agree it won't be anywhere near as impressive as the Noble...just a little more forgiving! Maybe
It's lloking promising on the tinkering front then
Incidentally the gearbox is a weak link on the Scoob as well, I'm on my third at the moment, Syncros first (common fault on the 98) then more recently I snapped a selector rod
Chassis wise, for a 4 door family saloon car running mcpherson struts the scoob isn't too bad, no match for the Noble in standard form, but with a bit of work with dampers, springs, ride height, geometry and bushes it can be improved quite a lot...so much so that I was able to get well away from a certain supercharged Exiege last time I went to Donnington
but I agree it won't be anywhere near as impressive as the Noble...just a little more forgiving! Maybe
Slooby said: but I agree it won't be anywhere near as impressive as the Noble...just a little more forgiving! Maybe
You need to drive a Noble - it has the most benign chassis of any car I've driven - it doesn't do anything "snappy" - merely tells you a few seconds before it's going to go, then just slowly lets go whereupon you have two options - back off the gas (and it doesn't seem to matter how hard you back off) and it will go back to doing just what it was before it let go, or keep on and just correct the slide with the steering.
Sublime - absolutly.
Also - remember that the current car will break traction in 4th when the turbo winds up on full throttle (as it did to me on Saturday) in slippery conditions - so unless you somehow smooth out the power delivery (which turning up the boost will just exasperate) your going to have a very very nasty car to drive in the wet without either traction control or a turbo on/off switch labeled "wet mode"
J
Slooby said: ...I agree it won't be anywhere near as impressive as the Noble...just a little more forgiving! Maybe
I've only driven the Noble with Garage Salesman sitting next to me, but have been taken around in others. Also have tried the scooby a few times (but not modded like yours).
Not sure I'd agree that the Noble would be less forgiving than the Scooby. The Noble feedback is incredible, allowing you to use all the grip. I guess that without ABS/Traction control then the Noble would be no match for the Scooby in extremely slippy conditions. But the rest of the time...
Edited to say... Cross posted with Joust - think we agree!
>> Edited by goodlife on Monday 3rd March 19:05
J, if it weren't for the S02's I already have a very nasty car to drive in the wet it's just a shame the Bridstone have lost the plot and stopped making them in a size that would suit my needs
I've learnt to drive the scoob with a lot of respect on the road since I discovered traction issues whilest running slicks...all 4 wheels spinning through 2nd and 3rd whilest exiting hairpin corners (big fun on track, down right dangerous behavior on the road)
You're all right, I am going to have to drive a Noble, I'm also going to have to work out how on earth I can justify funding it...if it goes anything like the day I test drove the scoob for the first time I can see things getting expensive
Like the scoob any mods would come over time, it's taken me over 4 years to get where I am with the car today, so appart from binning the dreaded waste of space that it the Cat, I can see the car staying stock for quite some time (6 months at least lol)
it's just a shame the Bridstone have lost the plot and stopped making them in a size that would suit my needs I've learnt to drive the scoob with a lot of respect on the road since I discovered traction issues whilest running slicks...all 4 wheels spinning through 2nd and 3rd whilest exiting hairpin corners (big fun on track, down right dangerous behavior on the road)
You're all right, I am going to have to drive a Noble, I'm also going to have to work out how on earth I can justify funding it...if it goes anything like the day I test drove the scoob for the first time I can see things getting expensive
Like the scoob any mods would come over time, it's taken me over 4 years to get where I am with the car today, so appart from binning the dreaded waste of space that it the Cat, I can see the car staying stock for quite some time (6 months at least lol)
Your scoob sounds very interesting and a decent scoob can be very quick....but to sum it all up...
why have a wolf in sheeps clothing when you can have a wolf in wolfs clothing
A Noble isn't 'comprimised' by having to be massed produced (ie 1.6 NA base model, steel panels for robots to weld), or no 'design flaws' like rear seats and a boot able to cope with shopping Just pure sports car with most of the weight over the driven wheels in the back. In regards to boosting the V6, I would look at tuning stuff over the pond, or maybe visit the Mondeo forum for turbo tips.
Regards John S
why have a wolf in sheeps clothing when you can have a wolf in wolfs clothing
A Noble isn't 'comprimised' by having to be massed produced (ie 1.6 NA base model, steel panels for robots to weld), or no 'design flaws' like rear seats and a boot able to cope with shopping
Just pure sports car with most of the weight over the driven wheels in the back. In regards to boosting the V6, I would look at tuning stuff over the pond, or maybe visit the Mondeo forum for turbo tips. Regards John S
One of the strangest things about the 'classic' scoob (ie anything pre the current fugly) when you start to work on them in earnest is that you discover a whole load of seemingly pointless bits...which after a little bit of investigation turn out to be specifically designed in to ease conversion into a rally car...things like on board break and fuel lines, mountings for 4 point harnesses, 4 chassis mounted accessible towing eyes...nice little feature for a 4 door family saloon to have
One of the main things I loved about the scoob when I bought it was that it was a relatively unassuming (bonnet scoop aside) 4 door car, that just happened to be an amazing drive! Mine is not quite so subtle now (there a pic in my profile of it on track at Donno), but it's not as leary as it could be...but if I continue modding I suspec some body additions will be required for additional cooling and down force...
To give an idea of what my car is capable of, last year at the Elvington '10 of the Best' event despite my car running a stock gear box and me treating it with extreme care, (I couldn't bring myself to launch it properly off the line) I ran a 15 Second 500metres at 112mph (about 2 seconds off a similarly modded car with a driver prepared to lunch his gearbox!) and was clocked at 166.6mph going through the 1.25 mile speed trap (all from a standing start) the car was still pulling very well and if I had a stronger gearbox (maybe this year) we feel that the limiter in top would have been acheivable (with my current gear ratios this equates to a theoretical top speed of 178mph!) There was also a short handling course, which I was lapping in about 35 seconds on some budget 205x50x16 tyres of different makes the winning car (the Reyland Escort Cossie touring car!) lapped the same circuit in about 32.5 secs...from memory
I must find out about this GTO 3T, sounds like a 'track' orrientated version...mmmm, would be nice if it were cheaper than the standard car
>> Edited by Slooby on Tuesday 4th March 18:30
One of the main things I loved about the scoob when I bought it was that it was a relatively unassuming (bonnet scoop aside) 4 door car, that just happened to be an amazing drive! Mine is not quite so subtle now (there a pic in my profile of it on track at Donno), but it's not as leary as it could be...but if I continue modding I suspec some body additions will be required for additional cooling and down force...
To give an idea of what my car is capable of, last year at the Elvington '10 of the Best' event despite my car running a stock gear box and me treating it with extreme care, (I couldn't bring myself to launch it properly off the line) I ran a 15 Second 500metres at 112mph (about 2 seconds off a similarly modded car with a driver prepared to lunch his gearbox!) and was clocked at 166.6mph going through the 1.25 mile speed trap (all from a standing start) the car was still pulling very well and if I had a stronger gearbox (maybe this year) we feel that the limiter in top would have been acheivable (with my current gear ratios this equates to a theoretical top speed of 178mph!) There was also a short handling course, which I was lapping in about 35 seconds on some budget 205x50x16 tyres of different makes the winning car (the Reyland Escort Cossie touring car!) lapped the same circuit in about 32.5 secs...from memory
I must find out about this GTO 3T, sounds like a 'track' orrientated version...mmmm, would be nice if it were cheaper than the standard car
>> Edited by Slooby on Tuesday 4th March 18:30
Slooby said: I must find out about this GTO 3T, sounds like a 'track' orrientated version...mmmm, would be nice if it were cheaper than the standard car
>> Edited by Slooby on Tuesday 4th March 18:30
I have been waiting to find out about it since it was announced. I would imagine you will not find out about it until very late this year or early next. Basically it will not be at all road friendly. No creature comforts what so ever (I.E no AC, no carpet, etc.). It will probably have a dog sequential shift gearbox LSD, dry sump and around 400 BHP and cost around 68k depending upon individual requirements. But as I say they are too busy trying to get the money making cars out of the factory - 3R and 3C. Oh and they will probably make only 9 of these cars.
>> Edited by guysh on Wednesday 5th March 11:42
May I refer the right honourable gentlemen to the Ultima forum. If you want something that's more stripped out, that's tinkerable, then Lee Noble's earlier effort in current GTR guise fits the bill quite nicely.
Personally I see the Noble as something that's quite nice out of the box, a halfway house between a 911/355/Esprit and an Ultima GTR. Why turn it into something it isn't?
Just a thought.
Personally I see the Noble as something that's quite nice out of the box, a halfway house between a 911/355/Esprit and an Ultima GTR. Why turn it into something it isn't?
Just a thought.
Dom, my only problem with the Ultima is that it's a little bit too big for my liking...and I like car's with turbos, they're fun to tweek I know, there is a cosworth version of the Ultima...but it's a 4 pot...I want more cylinders to play with
Sounds like the 3T might be a little too expensive for my tastes then...
I know, there is a cosworth version of the Ultima...but it's a 4 pot...I want more cylinders to play with Sounds like the 3T might be a little too expensive for my tastes then...
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