M12 or 911 Turbo (well more mods)
Discussion
Hi, I currently drive a modified 911 turbo (964). Whilst I love this car and it's performance (380bhp, 600nm) I really want a 993 GT2. Unfortunately I can't justify the cost, so that got me thinking. What else offers lightweight crazy ass driving....
Well, i'm here, so I must have got something right. Anyone been in both, and where can I get a test drive (M12)(i'm in C. London).
>>> Edited by Ultra Violent on Sunday 15th December 19:25
Mole Valley are just out at Chessington and have their new 3.0l demonstrator available. Out of all the dealers near central London they are the most cluded up and will look after you the best it seems. Ring them on 0208 394 1114 and ask for Charles or Spencer.
Figures of 0-60 in 3.5 are now being bandied around for the M12 3.0l so I think you'll be impressed
J
Figures of 0-60 in 3.5 are now being bandied around for the M12 3.0l so I think you'll be impressed
J
I doubt there will be a 0.4 second 0-60 improvement for the new 3L model. Bearing in mind it weighs more and has a lower torque to weight ratio than the outgoing 2.6L model I'd be surprised if any of the acceleration figures where bettered unless the gearing had been changed. Top speed should be slightly higher though.
What are these boys like, when it comes to test-drives. I will actually want to drive the car not just be driven. Had a few problems when buying the porker... "Drive it sir, oh no. It's a turbo....blah, blah."
What sort of boost do these cars run, and is it mechanical or electronically controlled?
What sort of boost do these cars run, and is it mechanical or electronically controlled?
You'll have no problem. As long as *you* can drive they'll let you go for a good run. The roads around Mole Valley are prime hunting grounds for the GTO so you'll get a good idea what it's like.
Ultra Violent said: What are these boys like, when it comes to test-drives. I will actually want to drive the car not just be driven. Had a few problems when buying the porker... "Drive it sir, oh no. It's a turbo....blah, blah."
+0.7bar. Not sure what you mean by mechanical or electrical controlled?
What sort of boost do these cars run, and is it mechanical or electronically controlled?
J
Why you think I orderd a GTC (build number 11 - yippeeee!) rather than a 3R
stuh said: The torque to weight is only lower on the new 3R due to extra weight from LSD, additional soundproofing etc. The GTO and GTC remain the same, in fact the GTC comes in at 940KG so with 340bhp should be quite lively
J
Well just got back from a test drive in the 3.0 M12. I can understand way people consider it to be a great driver’s car, but ultimately (after getting over the excitement of driving it) I don't think it's for me.
The test car was fitted with a temporary boost controller which was boosting above spec. As a result a big green line on the rev counter signaled the fun limit at 4000 rpm. To my joy I was encouraged to ignore that and push on in to the 6000's. It's very quick to 70+ but there after the Porsche felt quicker. It was very focused and the ride was fantastic for such an out and out race car. The sequential turbo's felt very strange coming from single/parallel turbo cars, but the noise from the waste-gates was music...
So, why is it not for me, well on the test run the car started puffing out clouds of blue smoke, which did die away but a bit worrying none the less. Also I think I would miss the Porsche build. That's not saying it wasn't put together well, far from it. It was small things really, crap switch gear, being able to drive a bus through the pedals, notchy gearbox (not helped by the hand break position).
In short around a track I can't see much troubling it, and it would be one hell of a laugh. Travelling large distances across normal roads I'd stick with the porker. Probably because of the smoother power delivery and the extra weight making crap roads a doddle. Sadly enough, that's what my car spends most of it's life doing.
One last note, the guys at mole valley were great, I was given a very long (ever increasing in fact) test drive, and they were very friendly and helpful, especially when the porker wouldn't start. Now, before anyone takes a swipe it was traced to contaminated fuel, well me running the tank dry a day earlier....
The test car was fitted with a temporary boost controller which was boosting above spec. As a result a big green line on the rev counter signaled the fun limit at 4000 rpm. To my joy I was encouraged to ignore that and push on in to the 6000's. It's very quick to 70+ but there after the Porsche felt quicker. It was very focused and the ride was fantastic for such an out and out race car. The sequential turbo's felt very strange coming from single/parallel turbo cars, but the noise from the waste-gates was music...
So, why is it not for me, well on the test run the car started puffing out clouds of blue smoke, which did die away but a bit worrying none the less. Also I think I would miss the Porsche build. That's not saying it wasn't put together well, far from it. It was small things really, crap switch gear, being able to drive a bus through the pedals, notchy gearbox (not helped by the hand break position).
In short around a track I can't see much troubling it, and it would be one hell of a laugh. Travelling large distances across normal roads I'd stick with the porker. Probably because of the smoother power delivery and the extra weight making crap roads a doddle. Sadly enough, that's what my car spends most of it's life doing.
One last note, the guys at mole valley were great, I was given a very long (ever increasing in fact) test drive, and they were very friendly and helpful, especially when the porker wouldn't start. Now, before anyone takes a swipe it was traced to contaminated fuel, well me running the tank dry a day earlier....
Ultra,
Glad you liked the car.
I take your point about the blue smoke - but I would say worry not. Mole's car is the 2nd or 3rd 3.0l AFAIK that was built. To that end it's certainly got a 1st generation ECU and turbo map.
Like early 2.5's I would expect the 3's to have various problems until the correct ECU map is found. 2 ECU upgrades were done on the 2.5 that totally trasformed some of the engine features. Mole work very closely with the factory on these issues (as do all of the dealers) and things are resolved very very quickly.
I'm not sure about the exact reason that it was blue smoking for you - but it's almost certainly will be fixed before you take delivery of one.
My personal view is that the Noble is actually better screwed together than the X5 that I have - I've had more issues with the X5 than the M12 (the Noble is no. 26 - it is much better in terms of fit, finish and reliabilty that the original Mole 2.5 one which was No. 6 or 7 from memory).
Still - I'm sure you will have fun whatever you choose!
Oh - edited to say
Gearbox - yes - it does feel strange the first time you use it - and after the first day with it I was cursing and swearing at 2nd to 3rd. However, after a week I got used to the gating and it's actually a very very slick box to use.
Handbrake - ditto above - I actually quite like it's position - for pootling around slow London traffic it actually makes a suprisingly good arm rest for changing gear - means my arm doesn't ache anywhere near as much as after using the Lotus to drive into work)
Long Journeys
Again - you get used to it. I've actually found myself taking the Noble instead of the X5 lately to go to places like Norwich and Nottingham - I seem to feel more relaxed (and can certainly drive for longer) in the Noble - strange but that's how I feel.
If you want to see my diary that lists all the issues to get an idea of what you might expect see www.lotus-elise.org.uk/noble/diary.htm
J
>> Edited by joust on Tuesday 17th December 15:46
Glad you liked the car.
I take your point about the blue smoke - but I would say worry not. Mole's car is the 2nd or 3rd 3.0l AFAIK that was built. To that end it's certainly got a 1st generation ECU and turbo map.
Like early 2.5's I would expect the 3's to have various problems until the correct ECU map is found. 2 ECU upgrades were done on the 2.5 that totally trasformed some of the engine features. Mole work very closely with the factory on these issues (as do all of the dealers) and things are resolved very very quickly.
I'm not sure about the exact reason that it was blue smoking for you - but it's almost certainly will be fixed before you take delivery of one.
My personal view is that the Noble is actually better screwed together than the X5 that I have - I've had more issues with the X5 than the M12 (the Noble is no. 26 - it is much better in terms of fit, finish and reliabilty that the original Mole 2.5 one which was No. 6 or 7 from memory).
Still - I'm sure you will have fun whatever you choose!
Oh - edited to say
Gearbox - yes - it does feel strange the first time you use it - and after the first day with it I was cursing and swearing at 2nd to 3rd. However, after a week I got used to the gating and it's actually a very very slick box to use.
Handbrake - ditto above - I actually quite like it's position - for pootling around slow London traffic it actually makes a suprisingly good arm rest for changing gear - means my arm doesn't ache anywhere near as much as after using the Lotus to drive into work)
Long Journeys
Again - you get used to it. I've actually found myself taking the Noble instead of the X5 lately to go to places like Norwich and Nottingham - I seem to feel more relaxed (and can certainly drive for longer) in the Noble - strange but that's how I feel.
If you want to see my diary that lists all the issues to get an idea of what you might expect see www.lotus-elise.org.uk/noble/diary.htm
J
>> Edited by joust on Tuesday 17th December 15:46
It's funny, now you mention it, it could well have needed some ECU tuning. I felt on several occasions that it wasn't pulling as quickly as it had previously and what felt like a miss (although difficult to tell with the turbo’s).
It's also funny because now that I've got over the stress of the porker breaking down and not being in my garage tonight, i'm strangely drawn to the M12.
There are things that would have to change, like pedal weight and spacing, and all though I did get use to the gear change the handbrake would definitely need to be sorted.
Re. build quality I didn’t intend to imply it was badly build more design aspects, although they have definitely raided the wrong parts bin in some areas...
They have a 2.5 coming in at the weekend, which they are keeping me informed about. So we'll have to see.......
It's also funny because now that I've got over the stress of the porker breaking down and not being in my garage tonight, i'm strangely drawn to the M12.
There are things that would have to change, like pedal weight and spacing, and all though I did get use to the gear change the handbrake would definitely need to be sorted.
Re. build quality I didn’t intend to imply it was badly build more design aspects, although they have definitely raided the wrong parts bin in some areas...
They have a 2.5 coming in at the weekend, which they are keeping me informed about. So we'll have to see.......
Ultra,
The 2.5L M12 coming in might belong to EvoTim - you may wish to check the classifieds.
I am strangely drawn to the M12 in the same way, and am interested in Joust's comments about the 2nd to 3rd gearchange - which seemed tricky on the test drive. I still think there is something so different about the M12 - maybe it appeals to us Lotus types who are prepared to make sacrifies (such as naff roof)for the way the Elise drives. And the things is, it will never be a volume car like the Porsche, which also makes it special.
Gosh, I hope too many people don't get in the M12 queue before me.....!!!
The 2.5L M12 coming in might belong to EvoTim - you may wish to check the classifieds.
I am strangely drawn to the M12 in the same way, and am interested in Joust's comments about the 2nd to 3rd gearchange - which seemed tricky on the test drive. I still think there is something so different about the M12 - maybe it appeals to us Lotus types who are prepared to make sacrifies (such as naff roof)for the way the Elise drives. And the things is, it will never be a volume car like the Porsche, which also makes it special.
Gosh, I hope too many people don't get in the M12 queue before me.....!!!
My gearchange was VERY notchy until about 2000 miles when it transformed into a very good one. I actually like the very positive feel you get compared to the M3 that i drove until recently.
I can't wait to test the 3.0L car i think it will vastly improve the low end compared with my 2.5L until the fun begins above 3000rpm.................
Ditto with the ECU changes. My recent update at the factory has really sorted the power delivery, particularly when the engine is cold
I can't wait to test the 3.0L car i think it will vastly improve the low end compared with my 2.5L until the fun begins above 3000rpm
................. Ditto with the ECU changes. My recent update at the factory has really sorted the power delivery, particularly when the engine is cold
Yep - sounds like ECU problems. As stuh says the ECU upgrades for the 2.5l engine have really transformed things - so I would expect Lee to do the same. Putting two great turbos on top of these engines gives some interesting ECU mapping problems which they need miles to work through. Unlike the big guys Noble can't spend 2 years testing their cars (some day maybe) so the first people are a little bit of a guinea pig. If you order one now though you'll be well down in the queue - my No. 26 car was really sorted the day I got it (they are still going to tweak it further for me on the 10th when it goes back in) so I would imagine yours will be fine....
Ultra Violent said: It's funny, now you mention it, it could well have needed some ECU tuning. I felt on several occasions that it wasn't pulling as quickly as it had previously and what felt like a miss (although difficult to tell with the turbo’s).
It's also funny because now that I've got over the stress of the porker breaking down and not being in my garage tonight, i'm strangely drawn to the M12.
They have that effect..... All could easily be changed around with bits and pieces from the Demon Tweaks or similar catalogue. Why not give Spencer a ring back and talk through your concerns - I'm sure they'll be able to give you some suggestions of whay they can do (but you really do get used to the handbrake
There are things that would have to change, like pedal weight and spacing, and all though I did get use to the gear change the handbrake would definitely need to be sorted.
) Yep - the fog lamp switch really spoils the whole of that middle section for me - looks really "afterthought". Still - you won't be looking at the switches much when you are driving it - LOL!
Re. build quality I didn’t intend to imply it was badly build more design aspects, although they have definitely raided the wrong parts bin in some areas...
Ah - in that case you should drive it and see the difference in the engine - they are very different animals from what the factory says - ley us know if you do - I'd be interested in your view on the difference.
They have a 2.5 coming in at the weekend, which they are keeping me informed about. So we'll have to see.......
J
Yep that's right, I'm dropping my car into Mole Valley on Sat. Nicely run in as well now :-) Going to miss it but I've made the choice to sell now, and something even faster will be taking it's place :-) Ultra by the way where abouts are you based, I have some free time tomorrow and Friday if you wanted to have look at mine before it goes to Mole Valley.
I've been without my M12 for the last 14 days. Its been back at the factory for some minor faults to be corrected. To be specific the air con & a faulty
catch on the front bonnett.
Whilst there various upgrades have been done free of charge. I am not good with the spanners but if you look at the engine numerous things have changed. The gear lever has been made slightly longer, why!! It matters not to me, but the gear change is better. There were a couple of other points with the car that I needed to attend to, just maintenance, these have also been done, again free of charge, I did not ask for these.
I had another minor problem when I picked the car up. No problem to Noble it was sorted in 15 minutes on the spot. To them I am someone, a Noble owner and boy do they show it. In my eyes and in this world that counts.
I could have bought a Porsche, or a Ferrari come to that, I'm glad I did not.
Still and again for the 100th time at a filling station on the A14 the three young ladies behind the tills said "What sort of car is that"? Still for the 100th time I had as much pleasure in saying "Its not a 355 or a 911 ITS A NOBLE M12"
As such if you want to be "The Norm" buy a 355 or a 911
and make sure it's grey. If on the other hand you want
something a little different,JOIN THE QUE, you should get yours in July 2003 from what I hear.
And to the guys at Noble - Thanks very much.
Mr I AM Satisfied.
catch on the front bonnett.
Whilst there various upgrades have been done free of charge. I am not good with the spanners but if you look at the engine numerous things have changed. The gear lever has been made slightly longer, why!! It matters not to me, but the gear change is better. There were a couple of other points with the car that I needed to attend to, just maintenance, these have also been done, again free of charge, I did not ask for these.
I had another minor problem when I picked the car up. No problem to Noble it was sorted in 15 minutes on the spot. To them I am someone, a Noble owner and boy do they show it. In my eyes and in this world that counts.
I could have bought a Porsche, or a Ferrari come to that, I'm glad I did not.
Still and again for the 100th time at a filling station on the A14 the three young ladies behind the tills said "What sort of car is that"? Still for the 100th time I had as much pleasure in saying "Its not a 355 or a 911 ITS A NOBLE M12"
As such if you want to be "The Norm" buy a 355 or a 911
and make sure it's grey. If on the other hand you want
something a little different,JOIN THE QUE, you should get yours in July 2003 from what I hear.
And to the guys at Noble - Thanks very much.
Mr I AM Satisfied.
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