Noble 3R Engine Upgrade
Discussion
Hi! I live in italy and here i am restored a Noble M12 GTO 3R. I have extract the engine and i would like upgrade engine power to 400-420 HP.
I will change the exhaust system, the fuel pump, the intercooler and i will upgrade the engine valve springs . Correctly? Recommended else?
Since I am not sure if my intercooler and my fuel pump them have already been changed in past, can you say me the size of standard radiator and the code of standard Fuel pump?
Thank to all and excus me for my bad english.
I will change the exhaust system, the fuel pump, the intercooler and i will upgrade the engine valve springs . Correctly? Recommended else?
Since I am not sure if my intercooler and my fuel pump them have already been changed in past, can you say me the size of standard radiator and the code of standard Fuel pump?
Thank to all and excus me for my bad english.
400bhp on stock valve springs is asking for trouble as they tend to start bouncing at that and they soften and bounce more as they get older... also its boost related so if you boot it on a cold day and see 0.2bar more they will start to bounce (mine used to).
so you have absolutely no safety margin.
One thing I will say is I have been through many power and package iterations over the years with my 3.0L engine... The worst package I ever had was the remap to 400bhp with stock springs and a full exhaust system, it struggled against wheelspin then ran out of puff just as you got it under control... it was exciting, but hard to control and not that fast, was a much better car at stock power IMO.... my current package of well over 300bhp and 200ftlb more is way easier to drive and control when pushing it hard.
Its all very well turning the power up 50bhp because its cheap etc, but I'm not sure you should.
so you have absolutely no safety margin.
One thing I will say is I have been through many power and package iterations over the years with my 3.0L engine... The worst package I ever had was the remap to 400bhp with stock springs and a full exhaust system, it struggled against wheelspin then ran out of puff just as you got it under control... it was exciting, but hard to control and not that fast, was a much better car at stock power IMO.... my current package of well over 300bhp and 200ftlb more is way easier to drive and control when pushing it hard.
Its all very well turning the power up 50bhp because its cheap etc, but I'm not sure you should.
Edited by andygtt on Thursday 24th March 10:11
My exhaust system and collectors are damaged, then, i'am obbligate to change them. I thought to do change with after market and more powerful exhaust. (Piper or other).
My engine it was extract and i take this opportunity for replace some parts and toughen.
Also my turbos need to be restored, then i thought I would updating them. (It depends on spending).
I wood'nt like exaggerate with the ecu's map, for this i thought not to exceed 400 hp...
But if you tell me that with these changes I can push him over , I'll be happy to do it !
But.... pistons and connecting rods? They are affected ? Wich it is the limit? Need to be replaced with forged pistons?
My engine it was extract and i take this opportunity for replace some parts and toughen.
Also my turbos need to be restored, then i thought I would updating them. (It depends on spending).
I wood'nt like exaggerate with the ecu's map, for this i thought not to exceed 400 hp...
But if you tell me that with these changes I can push him over , I'll be happy to do it !
But.... pistons and connecting rods? They are affected ? Wich it is the limit? Need to be replaced with forged pistons?
The pistons you have can go to 500bhp reliably.... the rods are good for 700bhp and above.
I personally think the nicest way to 435bhp would be to retain stock turbos and possibly intercooler and have the head mildly flowed and cams reprofiled with valve springs and nice exhaust... you will get more power for less boost thus probably won't need additional intercooling and it would be more powerful everywhere even low down.
On low boost my car runs 0.6bar and 500bhp!.. you would need 1.2-1.4bar to achieve that on stock heads and cams, even the stock M400 runs 1bar to make 400-425bhp.
Of cause you can just fit valve spring, change the cam timing and turn the boost up for same power which is the normal route.
Anything much over 425bhp and you start to need to think about clutch, injectors, bigger turbos etc etc
I personally think the nicest way to 435bhp would be to retain stock turbos and possibly intercooler and have the head mildly flowed and cams reprofiled with valve springs and nice exhaust... you will get more power for less boost thus probably won't need additional intercooling and it would be more powerful everywhere even low down.
On low boost my car runs 0.6bar and 500bhp!.. you would need 1.2-1.4bar to achieve that on stock heads and cams, even the stock M400 runs 1bar to make 400-425bhp.
Of cause you can just fit valve spring, change the cam timing and turn the boost up for same power which is the normal route.
Anything much over 425bhp and you start to need to think about clutch, injectors, bigger turbos etc etc
Edited by andygtt on Thursday 24th March 19:36
Identification of your fuel pump: I don't have the standard unit number, but if it has been upgraded then you should read:- either a) Bosch 0 580 254 979 (the M400 pump) or b) Bosch 0 580 254 044 (commonly referred to as the "044"). It is unlikely to be the M400 unit. If it is not anything other than these 2 part numbers then I would simply buy and fit the Bosch 044 (readily available and known and trusted). Take care with trusted seller as there are some fakes selling cheap (I am told).
Intercooler: Unless it has "Pro Alloy" stamped into the top edge in large letters, then its probably standard, so you need to buy the Pro Alloy unit online.
Intercooler: Unless it has "Pro Alloy" stamped into the top edge in large letters, then its probably standard, so you need to buy the Pro Alloy unit online.
Edited by Evo2aGTO on Thursday 24th March 15:45
Andy, do you think flowing the heads on a forced compression engine has much effect? I guess just opening the ports and putting in bigger valves allows for more volume of air for a given pressure?
Cams I can see have the potential to make a difference.
It's an interesting option though, rather than pushing the boost. Perhaps when I get round to doing the valve springs I'll see what the options are for cams.
Cams I can see have the potential to make a difference.
It's an interesting option though, rather than pushing the boost. Perhaps when I get round to doing the valve springs I'll see what the options are for cams.
Andygtt - your something of a guru on here and I always read your posts with interest and to 'listen and learn' but my car has standard valve springs at 415bhp and has now done 25,000 miles after the upgrade without problems. Also seems to drive very well, when it was at Bespoke they also had an M400 there and driving both they thought they were a close match in terms of performance and drivability. This was a power upgrade on standard boost but different intercooler/fuel pump/exhaust.
Green3R said:
Andy, do you think flowing the heads on a forced compression engine has much effect? I guess just opening the ports and putting in bigger valves allows for more volume of air for a given pressure?
Cams I can see have the potential to make a difference.
It's an interesting option though, rather than pushing the boost. Perhaps when I get round to doing the valve springs I'll see what the options are for cams.
Yes huge difference in efficiency of the engine... valves remain stock size.Cams I can see have the potential to make a difference.
It's an interesting option though, rather than pushing the boost. Perhaps when I get round to doing the valve springs I'll see what the options are for cams.
Its not silly money, around £300 each head for the flowing and same for re-profiling the cams.... so £1200 wish plus labour and gaskets, oh and valve springs.
Lots of misunderstands about tuning turbo car, its often suggested that things that work on NA engine don't work on a turbo engine and thats just wrong.
Charged engine respond exactly the same to flowing heads etc as NA engines... air is not forced in (as I used to believe)... if flowing the head on a 100bhp NA engine improved it to 120bhp, then if the same engine was charged and made 200bhp stock it would make 40bhp with the heads flowed if everything else was equal.... trouble is its easier and arguably cheaper to 'gain' that power by turning up the boost so its often not done.
Our engines are an absolute classic example.... gains are minimal when adding flowed heads, cams etc to the NA engine, they may get it to 280bhp (from 220bhp) before they change all the intakes etc.... on our engine the stock car makes 350bhp at 0.7bar... mine makes 500bhp on 0.6 bar i.e. 150bhp more for less boost, and its not just a headline figure, the power band is also better... similar gains are seen with the twin turbo boys with similar spec engines so its not unique to mine.
Id like to see what the gains were on a stock engine with stock turbos intercooler etc, bet they will be surprising and worth doing instead of winding up the boost and putting on T28's etc.
cdhoole said:
Andygtt - your something of a guru on here and I always read your posts with interest and to 'listen and learn' but my car has standard valve springs at 415bhp and has now done 25,000 miles after the upgrade without problems. Also seems to drive very well, when it was at Bespoke they also had an M400 there and driving both they thought they were a close match in terms of performance and drivability. This was a power upgrade on standard boost but different intercooler/fuel pump/exhaust.
The M400 runs same power but had upgraded valve springs... Ive seen people run over 420bhp with stock springs and seen valve bounce at 390bhp.... you may well be fine but at 400bhp your on the verge of valve bounce on stock springs hence the M400's ones are upgraded.I know some will think Im being harsh and in truth I am, I know a 400bhp noble with the boost wound up to achieve it is fast and fun and great when compared to even an M400... its just that having been through many iterations (I ran similar to you with exhaust, stock springs but also stock intercooler) and driven a few I have my views on what the best most worthwhile mods are.
andygtt said:
Yes huge difference in efficiency of the engine... valves remain stock size.
Its not silly money, around £300 each head for the flowing and same for re-profiling the cams.... so £1200 wish plus labour and gaskets, oh and valve springs.
Lots of misunderstands about tuning turbo car, its often suggested that things that work on NA engine don't work on a turbo engine and thats just wrong.
Charged engine respond exactly the same to flowing heads etc as NA engines... air is not forced in (as I used to believe)... if flowing the head on a 100bhp NA engine improved it to 120bhp, then if the same engine was charged and made 200bhp stock it would make 40bhp with the heads flowed if everything else was equal.... trouble is its easier and arguably cheaper to 'gain' that power by turning up the boost so its often not done.
Our engines are an absolute classic example.... gains are minimal when adding flowed heads, cams etc to the NA engine, they may get it to 280bhp (from 220bhp) before they change all the intakes etc.... on our engine the stock car makes 350bhp at 0.7bar... mine makes 500bhp on 0.6 bar i.e. 150bhp more for less boost, and its not just a headline figure, the power band is also better... similar gains are seen with the twin turbo boys with similar spec engines so its not unique to mine.
Id like to see what the gains were on a stock engine with stock turbos intercooler etc, bet they will be surprising and worth doing instead of winding up the boost and putting on T28's etc.
Andy, what's this strange concept that air is not blown into the cylinders of a boosted engine? Rubbish I say! Either you haven't been reading the internet enough or you have been reading too many of Max Torque's posts! You will be saying that turbos don't give you free power next! Its not silly money, around £300 each head for the flowing and same for re-profiling the cams.... so £1200 wish plus labour and gaskets, oh and valve springs.
Lots of misunderstands about tuning turbo car, its often suggested that things that work on NA engine don't work on a turbo engine and thats just wrong.
Charged engine respond exactly the same to flowing heads etc as NA engines... air is not forced in (as I used to believe)... if flowing the head on a 100bhp NA engine improved it to 120bhp, then if the same engine was charged and made 200bhp stock it would make 40bhp with the heads flowed if everything else was equal.... trouble is its easier and arguably cheaper to 'gain' that power by turning up the boost so its often not done.
Our engines are an absolute classic example.... gains are minimal when adding flowed heads, cams etc to the NA engine, they may get it to 280bhp (from 220bhp) before they change all the intakes etc.... on our engine the stock car makes 350bhp at 0.7bar... mine makes 500bhp on 0.6 bar i.e. 150bhp more for less boost, and its not just a headline figure, the power band is also better... similar gains are seen with the twin turbo boys with similar spec engines so its not unique to mine.
Id like to see what the gains were on a stock engine with stock turbos intercooler etc, bet they will be surprising and worth doing instead of winding up the boost and putting on T28's etc.
Seriously though, listen to the above. It's all true. Also Andy knows his apples. Just look at his car for proof.
andygtt said:
.... it struggled against wheelspin then ran out of puff just as you got it under control... it was exciting, but hard to control ...
andygtt said:
Yes huge difference in efficiency of the engine... valves remain stock size.
Its not silly money, around £300 each head for the flowing and same for re-profiling the cams.... so £1200 wish plus labour and gaskets, oh and valve springs.
... mine makes 500bhp on 0.6 bar i.e. 150bhp more for less boost, and its not just a headline figure, the power band is also better...
Andy, thank you for proving what I have been thinking! I have thought, but am new to this setup (first turbo car), that my current tune (400+hp via boost and ECU tune from a respected Noble tuner here in the USA) was peaky! I would gladly give up absolute peak HP for better driveability.Its not silly money, around £300 each head for the flowing and same for re-profiling the cams.... so £1200 wish plus labour and gaskets, oh and valve springs.
... mine makes 500bhp on 0.6 bar i.e. 150bhp more for less boost, and its not just a headline figure, the power band is also better...
Do you have (and if you do, will you share) your recommendations/specs for the cam re-profiling? I live in region where its easy to find a good drag racing tuner (max power is king! driveability? hmmm max power is king!) so I would prefer to walk in with specifications verses trusting their drag racing experience.
cdhoole said:
Hi - You don't need to do a lot else other than a re-map once those parts are fitted. The 3R will give up 400bhp (and a bit more) with the upgrades mentioned. You don't really need to do the valve springs at this level either although it can't hurt!
Chris did you upgrade fuel pump , exhaust ( with cats ?) , pro alloy IC . actuators ,to make 415bhp ? and where did you cap the torque?That's good power for those changes
Stefano
doug_porsche said:
andygtt said:
.... it struggled against wheelspin then ran out of puff just as you got it under control... it was exciting, but hard to control ...
andygtt said:
Yes huge difference in efficiency of the engine... valves remain stock size.
Its not silly money, around £300 each head for the flowing and same for re-profiling the cams.... so £1200 wish plus labour and gaskets, oh and valve springs.
... mine makes 500bhp on 0.6 bar i.e. 150bhp more for less boost, and its not just a headline figure, the power band is also better...
Andy, thank you for proving what I have been thinking! I have thought, but am new to this setup (first turbo car), that my current tune (400+hp via boost and ECU tune from a respected Noble tuner here in the USA) was peaky! I would gladly give up absolute peak HP for better driveability.Its not silly money, around £300 each head for the flowing and same for re-profiling the cams.... so £1200 wish plus labour and gaskets, oh and valve springs.
... mine makes 500bhp on 0.6 bar i.e. 150bhp more for less boost, and its not just a headline figure, the power band is also better...
Do you have (and if you do, will you share) your recommendations/specs for the cam re-profiling? I live in region where its easy to find a good drag racing tuner (max power is king! driveability? hmmm max power is king!) so I would prefer to walk in with specifications verses trusting their drag racing experience.
Hi! I return in this topic because i need to decide how to do.
Unfortunately, i need to restore totally chassis and now the budget for power upgrade is lower...
I would like arrive to 400-415 bhp without change the intercooler and with original T25 Turbos.
In the end, what is the best solution for this? Without spending too?
P.s. The exhaust is already in the production
Unfortunately, i need to restore totally chassis and now the budget for power upgrade is lower...
I would like arrive to 400-415 bhp without change the intercooler and with original T25 Turbos.
In the end, what is the best solution for this? Without spending too?
P.s. The exhaust is already in the production
CgOUCg said:
Hi! I return in this topic because i need to decide how to do.
Unfortunately, i need to restore totally chassis and now the budget for power upgrade is lower...
I would like arrive to 400-415 bhp without change the intercooler and with original T25 Turbos.
In the end, what is the best solution for this? Without spending too?
P.s. The exhaust is already in the production
Are u running a 2.5 (GTO) or a 3.0 (GTO3)?Unfortunately, i need to restore totally chassis and now the budget for power upgrade is lower...
I would like arrive to 400-415 bhp without change the intercooler and with original T25 Turbos.
In the end, what is the best solution for this? Without spending too?
P.s. The exhaust is already in the production
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