Stage 1 conversion and insurance
Discussion
Thinking of having the stage 1 conversion to my standard 3R which I've been told will be about 400-420 bhp. What kind of impact would this make to my insurance? I'm 48, 7 years ncd, 1 own fault claim about 18 months ago and I normally pay about £400ish. I don't want any track cover, anybody had any experience of a good insurance company that doesn't take the pee when it comes to modifications? Also anyone had the same conversion to their car? Would you recommend it? My car hasn't flickered in the 2 years I've had her, Jetstream would do the work. cheers John
No fuel pump or exhaust upgrade? Intercooler won't give power increase, will just stop heat soak. Valve springs allow you to hold the power at higher revs without float, so it's really only the re-map that is giving a real power gain, which I don't think will get you near 420. Have you had your car on a dyno? As some of them are only around 330 standard anyway?
I had dual exhaust, cam timing, fuel pump & wiring, intercooler and made just over 400 a few years ago. I also broke the gearbox at this power, which is something worth thinking about.
I had dual exhaust, cam timing, fuel pump & wiring, intercooler and made just over 400 a few years ago. I also broke the gearbox at this power, which is something worth thinking about.
Hi Johns355,
I am of a similar age and have a similar power output (425HP/400lbft with modified Exhaust/Fuel Pump/Intercooler/re-map)and I paid £500 with Sky Insurance. This was for 6,000 mile limit, social domestic and commute, £350 excess and with girlfriend as a named driver (yes I know, what was I thinking). I also declared all other mods such as wheels, hard pipe kits, even stereo etc. At the time, having trawled through this forum for clues as to who other owners had insured with, this seemed to be about the going rate as regards those I contacted. Others included track days for the same sum but restricted the mileage to 4,000 or 5,000 miles max. The cheapest I found with a 4,000 mile restriction was about £420.00. If you search on the forum, there is some debate as to whether you need to declare these modifications on the basis it is unlikely anyone would know what was original from the factory or not (and it varied), and while I think both points of view have merit I thought for the sake of a £100 or so it was worth hedging my bets!
Chris.
I am of a similar age and have a similar power output (425HP/400lbft with modified Exhaust/Fuel Pump/Intercooler/re-map)and I paid £500 with Sky Insurance. This was for 6,000 mile limit, social domestic and commute, £350 excess and with girlfriend as a named driver (yes I know, what was I thinking). I also declared all other mods such as wheels, hard pipe kits, even stereo etc. At the time, having trawled through this forum for clues as to who other owners had insured with, this seemed to be about the going rate as regards those I contacted. Others included track days for the same sum but restricted the mileage to 4,000 or 5,000 miles max. The cheapest I found with a 4,000 mile restriction was about £420.00. If you search on the forum, there is some debate as to whether you need to declare these modifications on the basis it is unlikely anyone would know what was original from the factory or not (and it varied), and while I think both points of view have merit I thought for the sake of a £100 or so it was worth hedging my bets!
Chris.
mrpbailey said:
No fuel pump or exhaust upgrade? Intercooler won't give power increase, will just stop heat soak. Valve springs allow you to hold the power at higher revs without float, so it's really only the re-map that is giving a real power gain, which I don't think will get you near 420. Have you had your car on a dyno? As some of them are only around 330 standard anyway?
I had dual exhaust, cam timing, fuel pump & wiring, intercooler and made just over 400 a few years ago. I also broke the gearbox at this power, which is something worth thinking about.
Thanks for the feedback, if it risks the gearbox I think I'll give it a miss! Anyone else stuffed the gearbox by running 400ish hp?I had dual exhaust, cam timing, fuel pump & wiring, intercooler and made just over 400 a few years ago. I also broke the gearbox at this power, which is something worth thinking about.
cdhoole said:
Hi Johns355,
I am of a similar age and have a similar power output (425HP/400lbft with modified Exhaust/Fuel Pump/Intercooler/re-map)and I paid £500 with Sky Insurance. This was for 6,000 mile limit, social domestic and commute, £350 excess and with girlfriend as a named driver (yes I know, what was I thinking). I also declared all other mods such as wheels, hard pipe kits, even stereo etc. At the time, having trawled through this forum for clues as to who other owners had insured with, this seemed to be about the going rate as regards those I contacted. Others included track days for the same sum but restricted the mileage to 4,000 or 5,000 miles max. The cheapest I found with a 4,000 mile restriction was about £420.00. If you search on the forum, there is some debate as to whether you need to declare these modifications on the basis it is unlikely anyone would know what was original from the factory or not (and it varied), and while I think both points of view have merit I thought for the sake of a £100 or so it was worth hedging my bets!
Chris.
Thanks for the feedback Chris, I appreciate it, have you had any gearbox issues running that power? Cheers John I am of a similar age and have a similar power output (425HP/400lbft with modified Exhaust/Fuel Pump/Intercooler/re-map)and I paid £500 with Sky Insurance. This was for 6,000 mile limit, social domestic and commute, £350 excess and with girlfriend as a named driver (yes I know, what was I thinking). I also declared all other mods such as wheels, hard pipe kits, even stereo etc. At the time, having trawled through this forum for clues as to who other owners had insured with, this seemed to be about the going rate as regards those I contacted. Others included track days for the same sum but restricted the mileage to 4,000 or 5,000 miles max. The cheapest I found with a 4,000 mile restriction was about £420.00. If you search on the forum, there is some debate as to whether you need to declare these modifications on the basis it is unlikely anyone would know what was original from the factory or not (and it varied), and while I think both points of view have merit I thought for the sake of a £100 or so it was worth hedging my bets!
Chris.
johns355 said:
Thanks for the feedback, if it risks the gearbox I think I'll give it a miss! Anyone else stuffed the gearbox by running 400ish hp?
Doesn't the 3r share the same (standard) gearbox as the M400? M400 is quoted 425bhp, so I'd have thought you should be OK with this power. Sure, some have failed, but is this due to the power increase or was it destined to fail anyway? I thought the general rule of thumb was if you want to go over 500bhp, then you should strengthen the gearbox.johns355 said:
Thanks for the feedback, if it risks the gearbox I think I'll give it a miss! Anyone else stuffed the gearbox by running 400ish hp?
Don't take it as gospel that the gearbox will fail tho, I suppose it could've gone at standard power too. I do trackdays and ran at 410/400lbft for about 2 years before it let go.Now at around 520bhp and pay just over £500/year with unlimited trackdays thru mannings. Im 31, 5 yrs NCB, all mods declared and 5000miles limit.
Hi John,
I only bought the car in November last year and have only done a couple of thousand miles since, so unfortunately I can't help on the longevity of the gearbox. The car had the modifications done (increasing the power output) in Feb 2011 and when I bought the car from Bespoke the clutch did require changing (but the car had done 45,000 miles). This was done by Bespoke and the gearbox was sent off at the same time to have it checked, but it was found to be fine. From what I have gleaned from the forum the gearbox seems to cope with this power output, but then I guess it depends on how you use it!! Cheers Chris.
I only bought the car in November last year and have only done a couple of thousand miles since, so unfortunately I can't help on the longevity of the gearbox. The car had the modifications done (increasing the power output) in Feb 2011 and when I bought the car from Bespoke the clutch did require changing (but the car had done 45,000 miles). This was done by Bespoke and the gearbox was sent off at the same time to have it checked, but it was found to be fine. From what I have gleaned from the forum the gearbox seems to cope with this power output, but then I guess it depends on how you use it!! Cheers Chris.
Just to chip in some clarification:
The valve timing is retarded (1 or 2 teeth on the belt) on standard Nobles as the valves bounce at high revs- retard reduces the top end rev range.
Fitting harder springs prevents the bounce and so the timing can be put back to Ford/Jag standard.
Not sure if the retard reduces power across the whole rev range...anyone..?
Someone will be along soon to clarify my clarification!
The valve timing is retarded (1 or 2 teeth on the belt) on standard Nobles as the valves bounce at high revs- retard reduces the top end rev range.
Fitting harder springs prevents the bounce and so the timing can be put back to Ford/Jag standard.
Not sure if the retard reduces power across the whole rev range...anyone..?
Someone will be along soon to clarify my clarification!
Here's my personal opinion on the whole valve spring situation:
If you're going for big power then it'll be something necessary for you to achieve your target. If you want 'some more power' then rather than forcing the power band higher up the Rev range and forcing everything to work much faster for little reason, why not leave the timing alone and do all the other things necessary to achieve a sensible figure?
A standard car will need a fuel pump upgrade plus larger gauge wiring. At that point you can have a remap and maybe reach 375/380.
Or you could fit a better spec intercooler and then remap for maybe 390/400. Or you could add a decent dual exhaust system with either no cats or high flow and remap to maybe 410/410. All of this PROBABLY without having to touch the valve springs. Your mapper will be able to tell you if the valves are bouncing and will map accordingly. If you've done a few miles then springs might be a wise idea anyway, but personally I'd not bother with the timing mod unless you then want to go much further.
If you're going for big power then it'll be something necessary for you to achieve your target. If you want 'some more power' then rather than forcing the power band higher up the Rev range and forcing everything to work much faster for little reason, why not leave the timing alone and do all the other things necessary to achieve a sensible figure?
A standard car will need a fuel pump upgrade plus larger gauge wiring. At that point you can have a remap and maybe reach 375/380.
Or you could fit a better spec intercooler and then remap for maybe 390/400. Or you could add a decent dual exhaust system with either no cats or high flow and remap to maybe 410/410. All of this PROBABLY without having to touch the valve springs. Your mapper will be able to tell you if the valves are bouncing and will map accordingly. If you've done a few miles then springs might be a wise idea anyway, but personally I'd not bother with the timing mod unless you then want to go much further.
I ran for years with +400bhp (430 from memory) then it happened and my gearbox failed (3rd gear). At this point I then upgraded again and went for the gearbox + oil cooler, clutch, injectors and remap upgrade, now 505bhp. This is how I did it, it allowed me to do it in stages rather than trying to do the whole lot in one go. Hth!!
Going back to the insurance question, I've just received a very favourable quote from Henderson Taylor, who now use Equity Red Star as underwriter. Their policy covers Agreed Value, 6 track days / year incl. Europe, Spa etc, Low excess ('cept on track), 4.5k annual miles and my mods covered - intercooler & Protechs. I asked what sort of increase a power boost (low 400s) would effect the premium and was told just a nominal increase, if any. A "mod friendly" underwriter. Came in nearly £200 cheaper than Mannings.
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