Clutch Judder / noisy fuel pump - still finding my feet!
Discussion
Hello again,
You may recall that I bought my first Noble back in December (M12YEA) and the engine and gearbox were removed by Bespoke to replace the clutch before I took delivery - took a while as the company (Helix) who make the six paddle clutches had a problem with the machine that makes them and none were available. Good on Bespoke who patiently waited six weeks or more with the car in bits taking up precious space in the workshop!
With all the bad weather, rain, snow (I live in Devon) and salt all over the place I have not had the nerve to take the car out despite chomping at the bit, but a rare clear day meant at long last I had my first run. Boy it's quick, extraordinary and just a delight. Always wanted a Noble because I love the pedigree and the looks, but the way the thing moves is even more spectacular! What I think I have come to understand though is that you can never fully realise the potential of such a car on the roads (tractors, mud, uneven surfaces, pot holes, traffic, and hence the popularity of track days. Anyway I was out and about just driving to no-where for most of the day and it ran without a hitch and everything works as it should, but two things caught my attention: the noisy fuel pump and the there is noticeable clutch judder. Having read through the forums I know the upgraded Bosche pump can be noisy and that this may depend on whether it is fitted before or after the filter (still learning but I think that was the jist of it). Can I just ask if this is the solution, one or the other? Currently at idle the pump is louder than the engine!
The Clutch judder I have been less successful searching through the Noble forum although I have read around the subject generally, but then it may be particular to the Noble. It will judder when pulling away and a little when changing gears within the lower rev range. Is this normal? Or is it because it is new and has to 'bed in' perhaps?
I can raise this with Bespoke as the car goes back to them soon (March/April) for a service but I would rather not mention if it is nothing to worry about - they have been so accommodating.
On another topic entirely - still hoping to catch up with the few fellow owners in this far corner of the British Isles - please let me know if you get up to anything interesting (but am keeping an eye on here too of course)!
Many Thanks.
You may recall that I bought my first Noble back in December (M12YEA) and the engine and gearbox were removed by Bespoke to replace the clutch before I took delivery - took a while as the company (Helix) who make the six paddle clutches had a problem with the machine that makes them and none were available. Good on Bespoke who patiently waited six weeks or more with the car in bits taking up precious space in the workshop!
With all the bad weather, rain, snow (I live in Devon) and salt all over the place I have not had the nerve to take the car out despite chomping at the bit, but a rare clear day meant at long last I had my first run. Boy it's quick, extraordinary and just a delight. Always wanted a Noble because I love the pedigree and the looks, but the way the thing moves is even more spectacular! What I think I have come to understand though is that you can never fully realise the potential of such a car on the roads (tractors, mud, uneven surfaces, pot holes, traffic, and hence the popularity of track days. Anyway I was out and about just driving to no-where for most of the day and it ran without a hitch and everything works as it should, but two things caught my attention: the noisy fuel pump and the there is noticeable clutch judder. Having read through the forums I know the upgraded Bosche pump can be noisy and that this may depend on whether it is fitted before or after the filter (still learning but I think that was the jist of it). Can I just ask if this is the solution, one or the other? Currently at idle the pump is louder than the engine!
The Clutch judder I have been less successful searching through the Noble forum although I have read around the subject generally, but then it may be particular to the Noble. It will judder when pulling away and a little when changing gears within the lower rev range. Is this normal? Or is it because it is new and has to 'bed in' perhaps?
I can raise this with Bespoke as the car goes back to them soon (March/April) for a service but I would rather not mention if it is nothing to worry about - they have been so accommodating.
On another topic entirely - still hoping to catch up with the few fellow owners in this far corner of the British Isles - please let me know if you get up to anything interesting (but am keeping an eye on here too of course)!
Many Thanks.
The clutch judder is because the gearbox has a floating input shaft... on pull away this flexes up to 2mm and thus the clutch plates hit the outer casing... in a modified clutch the tolerances are closer and thus they tend to be worse.
This is why some peoples clutches are noisier than others as the tolerances only need to differ slightly to start hitting or missing... its unlikely to go away but in truth other than the horrible noise it doesn't matter.... you could remove the plate and machine it down a little, I did this but I don't know of anyone else who has done it and I run a very different clutch anyhow.
Most other cars don't have this noise as the gearbox input shaft extends into a bearing in the crank completely eliminating this shaft flex.
Unfortunately a noisy fuel pump whist not right is completely normal in a Noble, your unlikely to be able to fix it without a fuel system re-design
... again other than noise you will be unlikely that it causes you an issue.
This is why some peoples clutches are noisier than others as the tolerances only need to differ slightly to start hitting or missing... its unlikely to go away but in truth other than the horrible noise it doesn't matter.... you could remove the plate and machine it down a little, I did this but I don't know of anyone else who has done it and I run a very different clutch anyhow.
Most other cars don't have this noise as the gearbox input shaft extends into a bearing in the crank completely eliminating this shaft flex.
Unfortunately a noisy fuel pump whist not right is completely normal in a Noble, your unlikely to be able to fix it without a fuel system re-design
... again other than noise you will be unlikely that it causes you an issue.Hi GTO600 - I have sent you an email in response - hope that's okay.
Andygtt - thanks for the clear and precise description, one even I could understand. I think this will as likely be the issue. It's no problem living with it though, a few more revs keep it down to a minimum - is there a danger the vibration will eventually cause things to become loose at all(exhaust etc)?
As regards the fuel pump I suppose I could put it in a sound proof box!
Thanks everyone else too - still amazes me the depth and breadth of knowledge that is so accessible on here. I would be pretty nervous owning this car not having all of you to (selfishly) fall back on.
Andygtt - thanks for the clear and precise description, one even I could understand. I think this will as likely be the issue. It's no problem living with it though, a few more revs keep it down to a minimum - is there a danger the vibration will eventually cause things to become loose at all(exhaust etc)?
As regards the fuel pump I suppose I could put it in a sound proof box!
Thanks everyone else too - still amazes me the depth and breadth of knowledge that is so accessible on here. I would be pretty nervous owning this car not having all of you to (selfishly) fall back on.
Blu3R said:
As has been mentioned before - the 044 likes to be supplied fuel at pressure so the only real way to reduce the noise would be to pump the fuel to it. Whether you can manage that elegantly is up to you.
wise words.. this is exactly what I have done, and I run 2 that are very quiet.Don't put them in a box, keeping them cool is an absolute must as if they overheat they will fail.
cdhoole said:
Thanks guys,
so if using 2 pumps - is there any particular specification for the other? Is it a matter of simply placing it in situ somewhere before the other one?
Cheers
It's been suggested that to keep cost down you can use the original pump to supply the 044. I think this is what I'll do when I get around to it and I'll buy another filter to go inline too. so if using 2 pumps - is there any particular specification for the other? Is it a matter of simply placing it in situ somewhere before the other one?
Cheers
Blu3R said:
cdhoole said:
Thanks guys,
so if using 2 pumps - is there any particular specification for the other? Is it a matter of simply placing it in situ somewhere before the other one?
Cheers
It's been suggested that to keep cost down you can use the original pump to supply the 044. I think this is what I'll do when I get around to it and I'll buy another filter to go inline too. so if using 2 pumps - is there any particular specification for the other? Is it a matter of simply placing it in situ somewhere before the other one?
Cheers
You don't need two pumps, part of the problem is some of you run a more powerful pump than you actually need, the biggest problem is the fuel supply pipework to the pump. (You only need two pumps if running silly power as Andy's)
The 044 pump is a waste of time unless you run in excess of 500bhp & if you fit one on standardish power all your doing is pushing more fuel back into the tank & heating it up.
The noise is because the pump is starving due to poor supply, which can be cured by improving the supply pipework from the tank & fitting a hi-flow filter & larger bore connections.
Ideally the best solution is to modify the tank as Tux did & have the outlet in the correct position then have the shortest length largest bore pipe you can from the tank outlet to the filter etc.
Without altering the tank if you change the old supply pipework & ensure you have no kinks, on the filter remove the brass connections & bore them out as big as you dare ! Then fit a metal gauze filter instead of the paper one.
For standard power the standard pump is fine, for 400 - 450 bhp fit the M400 pump & only fit the 044 for over 450 bhp BUT always improve the supply feed to all the pumps & filters.
My fault as I think there is cross talk here.
As Kev says I actually run 2 044's, I did a load of research before I made myself an all new fuel tank with 2 lifter pumps in the tank and a swirl pot.... what I was saying is my 2 044 pumps are quiet so they can be quiet if installed properly... You will only need 2 044's if you are going beyond 550-600bhp.
I think what was being suggested by Rob is that you run the standard pump and filter and fit a single 044 pump AFTER it.... the stock pump then supplies the 044 with a little pressure meaning the 044 is much happier... the stock pump can deliver a lot more fuel if its not supplying any significant pressure thus you get the fuel flow with a quiet system.
As Kev says I actually run 2 044's, I did a load of research before I made myself an all new fuel tank with 2 lifter pumps in the tank and a swirl pot.... what I was saying is my 2 044 pumps are quiet so they can be quiet if installed properly... You will only need 2 044's if you are going beyond 550-600bhp.
I think what was being suggested by Rob is that you run the standard pump and filter and fit a single 044 pump AFTER it.... the stock pump then supplies the 044 with a little pressure meaning the 044 is much happier... the stock pump can deliver a lot more fuel if its not supplying any significant pressure thus you get the fuel flow with a quiet system.
So is it fair to say a reasonable solution and one that can be carried out by something of a novice is: change the old supply pipework & ensure you have no kinks (sounds simple enough), on the filter remove the brass connections & bore them out as big as you dare (should be okay - just a bit anyway)! Then fit a metal gauze filter instead of the paper one and use the M400 Pump (my Car is developing 415bhp). This could be my first mod and it would be good to stop the contamination of the engine noise at tick over! In addition it sounds as if there will be less heating up of the fuel in the tank (as there is less being returned). I am going to be very lazy now (but it would be useful to repeat it here perhaps) - what is the M400 Pump and is there a part number for the metal gauze filter? If that is taking too much of a liberty (i.e. find out myself) I understand!
GTO600 said:
I keep saying this but why !!!
You don't need two pumps, part of the problem is some of you run a more powerful pump than you actually need, the biggest problem is the fuel supply pipework to the pump. (You only need two pumps if running silly power as Andy's)
The 044 pump is a waste of time unless you run in excess of 500bhp & if you fit one on standardish power all your doing is pushing more fuel back into the tank & heating it up.
The noise is because the pump is starving due to poor supply, which can be cured by improving the supply pipework from the tank & fitting a hi-flow filter & larger bore connections.
Ideally the best solution is to modify the tank as Tux did & have the outlet in the correct position then have the shortest length largest bore pipe you can from the tank outlet to the filter etc.
Without altering the tank if you change the old supply pipework & ensure you have no kinks, on the filter remove the brass connections & bore them out as big as you dare ! Then fit a metal gauze filter instead of the paper one.
For standard power the standard pump is fine, for 400 - 450 bhp fit the M400 pump & only fit the 044 for over 450 bhp BUT always improve the supply feed to all the pumps & filters.
You don't need two pumps, part of the problem is some of you run a more powerful pump than you actually need, the biggest problem is the fuel supply pipework to the pump. (You only need two pumps if running silly power as Andy's)
The 044 pump is a waste of time unless you run in excess of 500bhp & if you fit one on standardish power all your doing is pushing more fuel back into the tank & heating it up.
The noise is because the pump is starving due to poor supply, which can be cured by improving the supply pipework from the tank & fitting a hi-flow filter & larger bore connections.
Ideally the best solution is to modify the tank as Tux did & have the outlet in the correct position then have the shortest length largest bore pipe you can from the tank outlet to the filter etc.
Without altering the tank if you change the old supply pipework & ensure you have no kinks, on the filter remove the brass connections & bore them out as big as you dare ! Then fit a metal gauze filter instead of the paper one.
For standard power the standard pump is fine, for 400 - 450 bhp fit the M400 pump & only fit the 044 for over 450 bhp BUT always improve the supply feed to all the pumps & filters.
Doesn't get much shorter than that Kevin, still buzzes like a b
h. I agree that the M400 pump would have been the better bet for 400bhp but I have the 044 now and still have my old standard pump so for the cost and simplicity I'll fit the old pump back and the 044 downstream.
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