Rear Aero Question
Discussion
After talking to the guys at the show about the useless std rear wing due to design of the roof line Why has nobody done a Zonda & FXX K twin winglet design?
Surely this would remove drag from the wing in the centre section and allow a more efficient use of rear wing downforce perhaps by using twin elements?
I should add that I don't think this would substitute the huge raised struts for track use just better performance for road use or better efficiency for most drivers.
Surely this would remove drag from the wing in the centre section and allow a more efficient use of rear wing downforce perhaps by using twin elements?
I should add that I don't think this would substitute the huge raised struts for track use just better performance for road use or better efficiency for most drivers.
Edited by JW027 on Monday 12th January 13:03
According to Mira's wind tunnel the standard wing produces huge amounts of down force, the only issue it found was that the car produced lift at the front, the aero balance of the standard car is appalling, unfortunately anecdotal evidence is opinion, wind tunnels don't lie.
Raising the rear wing or putting on a larger wing screws things up even more without significant changes to the rest of the car.
Raising the rear wing or putting on a larger wing screws things up even more without significant changes to the rest of the car.
I've never understood the thought that the standard rear wing is useless. I'm not sure you will even get a better laminar flow over the wing if you raise it. There will be a low pressure area by the rear window but this will pull the flow above it back down and therefore over the wing and over the wale tail. Everyone to their own I guess.
what will be happening on the stock clam is the air 'tumbles' off the edge of the rear roof and carries on tumbling until the wing.... the middle of the wing doesn't see clean air and thus gives no downforce.... raising the wing raises it above this tumbling air and into clean airflow and thus significantly increases the wings effectiveness.
As adrian says, you need to make other mods to the aero if you actually want the car to handle or perform better.
I personaly don't like the winglets on the outside on the ferrari and pagani... they look unfinished to me.
As adrian says, you need to make other mods to the aero if you actually want the car to handle or perform better.
I personaly don't like the winglets on the outside on the ferrari and pagani... they look unfinished to me.
PhillipM said:
They also look like they're more for styling than downforce as such, tiny aspect ratio's don't usually lend themselves well to making lots of downforce...
And do these hyper cars actually make and real downforce anyway? I bet they just minimise lift more than making significant downforce. After all a high downforce car isn't the easiest to control esp with lateral slip (all these cars have loads of power). Would only take a couple of idiots killing / harming themselves and it being blamed on the 'twitchy nature of the car' to ruin a hyper cars following. 
chuntington101 said:
And do these hyper cars actually make and real downforce anyway? I bet they just minimise lift more than making significant downforce. After all a high downforce car isn't the easiest to control esp with lateral slip (all these cars have loads of power). Would only take a couple of idiots killing / harming themselves and it being blamed on the 'twitchy nature of the car' to ruin a hyper cars following.
McLaren P1 makes 600KG of downforce at 160mph? Sounds a lot to me!LazyRoss18 said:
chuntington101 said:
And do these hyper cars actually make and real downforce anyway? I bet they just minimise lift more than making significant downforce. After all a high downforce car isn't the easiest to control esp with lateral slip (all these cars have loads of power). Would only take a couple of idiots killing / harming themselves and it being blamed on the 'twitchy nature of the car' to ruin a hyper cars following.
McLaren P1 makes 600KG of downforce at 160mph? Sounds a lot to me!Does anyone have a figure for the downforce created on a stock wing setup or a raised wing setup? Figures don't lie!
Edited by JW027 on Wednesday 14th January 17:03
I've read the wind tunnel test over and over again to try and understand the results , I have even paid to have somebody study the results to tell me the best way to improve the aero efficiency of my car in the end it came to personnel feel and finding a balance that I was happy with !!!!
The wing makes down force but at what speed ? My wing in std format always stayed perfectly clean in the CENTER and dirty at the end , when we used the aero dye it showed the CENTER of the wing doing nothing hence why my wing is currently 100 mm higher than std .
It's pretty easy to improve the front of the car , fit infill panels and vent the front arches helps massively , especially at high speed .
A simple gurney flap at the rad outlet helps balance the aero .
In the end I needed more rear grip this was achieved by fitting a longer rear defuser and venting the rear arches , even though all the wind tunnel work suggested the rear aero balance would work in my favour ultimately I needed more for me to be happy with the balance .
Car setup is very personal and while you can take advice ultimately it's what you want that should drive the modifications needed .
Personally I feel raising the rear wing is a easy way To improving the rear grip , I suppose the question is do you feel you need the extra grip !!!
The wing makes down force but at what speed ? My wing in std format always stayed perfectly clean in the CENTER and dirty at the end , when we used the aero dye it showed the CENTER of the wing doing nothing hence why my wing is currently 100 mm higher than std .
It's pretty easy to improve the front of the car , fit infill panels and vent the front arches helps massively , especially at high speed .
A simple gurney flap at the rad outlet helps balance the aero .
In the end I needed more rear grip this was achieved by fitting a longer rear defuser and venting the rear arches , even though all the wind tunnel work suggested the rear aero balance would work in my favour ultimately I needed more for me to be happy with the balance .
Car setup is very personal and while you can take advice ultimately it's what you want that should drive the modifications needed .
Personally I feel raising the rear wing is a easy way To improving the rear grip , I suppose the question is do you feel you need the extra grip !!!
JW027 said:
LazyRoss18 said:
chuntington101 said:
And do these hyper cars actually make and real downforce anyway? I bet they just minimise lift more than making significant downforce. After all a high downforce car isn't the easiest to control esp with lateral slip (all these cars have loads of power). Would only take a couple of idiots killing / harming themselves and it being blamed on the 'twitchy nature of the car' to ruin a hyper cars following.
McLaren P1 makes 600KG of downforce at 160mph? Sounds a lot to me!Does anyone have a figure for the downforce created on a stock wing setup or a raised wing setup? Figures don't lie!
Edited by JW027 on Wednesday 14th January 17:03
If it's actual downforce then that's great! However how do they mitigate the issue of some idiot loosing the said 600kg of down force mid high speed corner when the car gets sideways?
I remember someone, might have been MR torque on here saying that the WRC cars worked VERY hard to maintain downforce at greater slip angles as they don't tend to drive straight very often. In fact I'm sure a figure of 20 degrees was given for the max amount of slip before most of the downforce is lost!
TuxMan said:
It's pretty easy to improve the front of the car , fit infill panels and vent the front arches helps massively , especially at high speed .
+1After fitting infill panels, on my next track day I kept clipping cones on the insides of some of the faster corners. I deduced it was because I was being caught out by the extra downforce reducing the front slip angles so my usual steering inputs resulted in me cutting the corners. It took a good few laps to recalibrate my steering reflexes to compensate. So infill panels certainly gave me a noticeable benefit.
Edited by dave sutton on Thursday 15th January 23:40
LazyRoss18 said:
chuntington101 said:
And do these hyper cars actually make and real downforce anyway? I bet they just minimise lift more than making significant downforce. After all a high downforce car isn't the easiest to control esp with lateral slip (all these cars have loads of power). Would only take a couple of idiots killing / harming themselves and it being blamed on the 'twitchy nature of the car' to ruin a hyper cars following.
McLaren P1 makes 600KG of downforce at 160mph? Sounds a lot to me!given the speeds you will be in serious trouble already if you have large enough slip angles at 160mph to majorly effect the aero.
My spoiler makes around 350kgs of downforce at 180mph.... thats 4 large men sitting on the 2 wing supports!!!!
Rear wing aside what I have done is try to reduce lift and clean the airflow rather than increase downforce (quite a few areas that produce lift on stock car), i have a flatter underside with larger front wing vents on the front and some on the rear... my cars balance is fantastic and i don't suffer rear traction issues so Im fairly happy its right although I can't prove a thing lol
andygtt said:
My spoiler makes around 350kgs of downforce at 180mph.... thats 4 large men sitting on the 2 wing supports!!!!
I've always worried about exactly this with my man-maths. I would be seriously worried about the structural strength of my wing and supports, if I invited 4 burly guys to sit across my wing! And the supports are only bolted to a non-strutural section of my rear clam has a lot more structural support and transfers the downforce direct to a different point on my chassis... My clam can take it. Also my wing supports don't rake back so will provide more direct load downwards but doesn't look half as good as a result.
I spent the entire time at autosport looking at Craigs wing supports next to my wing support thinking how great his look and how naff mine look lol... new design of carbon ones will be on the horizon.
I spent the entire time at autosport looking at Craigs wing supports next to my wing support thinking how great his look and how naff mine look lol... new design of carbon ones will be on the horizon.
Gassing Station | Noble | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff