Consumer Rights Act 2015 Rejection advice?
Discussion
Unfortunately i’ve had issues with a golf R I bought from a company. It did not have warranty however I understand under CRA 2015 the car should be fit for purpose.
Not long at all after buying it I noticed coolant leak which I expected would happen eventually albeit not immediately after purchase. On the journey home the heater was acting up which I put down to the common thermostat issue. Lately though the coolant tank is full of oil. I’ve not driven for the past week to avoid further damage. The recovery man said it appears the oil cooler will need done but that in turn could of caused damage and contamination to the whole engine meaning it’s an engine out job leading to a potential rebuild. I’m awaiting it to be recovered to a garage for a proper diagnosis.
If it was just the normal water pump thermostat issue I was happy to accept that as part of ownership and get it done out of my own pocket however the oil in coolant issue obviously seems a lot more expensive and I’m struggling to see how it could of just materialised in the sub 1000 miles and month i’ve had the car. I’m actually one day outwith the 30 day period which I imagine could give them reason to not let me reject the car? I had the car at a VAG specialist shortly after purchasing and they noted that the thermostat was leaking which I have in writing. I had a view to sorting it later on but of course now the oil in tank has cropped up.
Wondering if anyone has any opinions to share on this? I was apprehensive to raise the thermostat issue however I wish I did now when it was first recognised at the specialist. But now of course it’s developed into something worse and the £ signs are in my head.
Logistically the place I bought it from is the other side of the country which I guess means it makes more sense for it to be repaired somewhere local to me? Oppose to having it sent back hundreds of miles for them to fix. Plus as the issue seems to be more involved than I first presumed i’m wondering how financially viable it would be, for them or me to be honest.
Not long at all after buying it I noticed coolant leak which I expected would happen eventually albeit not immediately after purchase. On the journey home the heater was acting up which I put down to the common thermostat issue. Lately though the coolant tank is full of oil. I’ve not driven for the past week to avoid further damage. The recovery man said it appears the oil cooler will need done but that in turn could of caused damage and contamination to the whole engine meaning it’s an engine out job leading to a potential rebuild. I’m awaiting it to be recovered to a garage for a proper diagnosis.
If it was just the normal water pump thermostat issue I was happy to accept that as part of ownership and get it done out of my own pocket however the oil in coolant issue obviously seems a lot more expensive and I’m struggling to see how it could of just materialised in the sub 1000 miles and month i’ve had the car. I’m actually one day outwith the 30 day period which I imagine could give them reason to not let me reject the car? I had the car at a VAG specialist shortly after purchasing and they noted that the thermostat was leaking which I have in writing. I had a view to sorting it later on but of course now the oil in tank has cropped up.
Wondering if anyone has any opinions to share on this? I was apprehensive to raise the thermostat issue however I wish I did now when it was first recognised at the specialist. But now of course it’s developed into something worse and the £ signs are in my head.
Logistically the place I bought it from is the other side of the country which I guess means it makes more sense for it to be repaired somewhere local to me? Oppose to having it sent back hundreds of miles for them to fix. Plus as the issue seems to be more involved than I first presumed i’m wondering how financially viable it would be, for them or me to be honest.
Edited by Tarmack on Sunday 16th March 00:15
Sorry to hear that, bit worrying on what's presumably a < 10 year old car.
Then ask them what they propose to do to get the car repaired.
If they don't reply within a few days, follow up with a phone call.
The legal basis is that the car has to be of satisfactory quality, a potentially serious engine problem within a month isn't, and the seller is responsible unless they can show that the oil cooler was in good condition at the point of purchase (highly unlikely). But just start by asking what they're going to do about it, then if they don't offer to get it fixed then remind them of the legal position.
The Motor Ombudsman said:
if the issue occurs in the first six months after buying the car, it’s up to the selling dealership or garage to prove that it was of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described when they sold it to you
...
If you report the problem outside of the first 30 days, you have to give the selling dealership or garage one opportunity to repair or replace your car, with repair normally being the best option.
I would email the selling garage. Stick to the facts - you noticed the coolant level dropping, you have found oil in the coolant tank, you had the car recovered and the recovery guy advised that the oil cooler has probably failed....
If you report the problem outside of the first 30 days, you have to give the selling dealership or garage one opportunity to repair or replace your car, with repair normally being the best option.
Then ask them what they propose to do to get the car repaired.
If they don't reply within a few days, follow up with a phone call.
The legal basis is that the car has to be of satisfactory quality, a potentially serious engine problem within a month isn't, and the seller is responsible unless they can show that the oil cooler was in good condition at the point of purchase (highly unlikely). But just start by asking what they're going to do about it, then if they don't offer to get it fixed then remind them of the legal position.
Yes I have notified the seller and provided information such as the VAG specialist invoice recognising the leaking thermostat dated only a week or so after I bought it. I wonder if that would serve as evidence the issue was there despite me not making them aware of it until now. To be honest I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, I think the issue wouldn’t of necessarily presented itself in the short journeys they would of used the car for. To make it a bit more complex I actually paid them a few grand on top of what the car was supposed to cost OTR - prior to even collecting and driving the thing - for some work and upgrades to the vehicle. Don’t want to be too specific on here as to the situation but basically I chose a car which they sourced for me. Upon them receiving it they flagged up some issues which were unexpected but wear and tear and the onus was on me to pay to make it roadworthy. They are a reputable company but they definitely don’t specialise in this sort of car. Because I spent more than I initially was told it would cost i’m annoyed that this issue wasn’t noticed or brought to my attention. Lot of money tied up in upgrades and labour which I feel has went down the drain now. If I can get it all sorted then i’d be happy but of course it’s tainted the experience.
Call Citizens Advice on Monday morning, it's a free service to consumers, and follow their instructions.
You say you bought from a company, a car dealer? or car repairer?
How did you pay for the car?
Did you pay for the car, and the modifications, in one whole payment?
You say you bought from a company, a car dealer? or car repairer?
How did you pay for the car?
Did you pay for the car, and the modifications, in one whole payment?
Edited by Trevor555 on Sunday 16th March 07:48
Tarmack said:
Yes I have notified the seller and provided information such as the VAG specialist invoice recognising the leaking thermostat dated only a week or so after I bought it. I wonder if that would serve as evidence the issue was there despite me not making them aware of it until now. To be honest I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, I think the issue wouldn’t of necessarily presented itself in the short journeys they would of used the car for. To make it a bit more complex I actually paid them a few grand on top of what the car was supposed to cost OTR - prior to even collecting and driving the thing - for some work and upgrades to the vehicle. Don’t want to be too specific on here as to the situation but basically I chose a car which they sourced for me. Upon them receiving it they flagged up some issues which were unexpected but wear and tear and the onus was on me to pay to make it roadworthy. They are a reputable company but they definitely don’t specialise in this sort of car. Because I spent more than I initially was told it would cost i’m annoyed that this issue wasn’t noticed or brought to my attention. Lot of money tied up in upgrades and labour which I feel has went down the drain now. If I can get it all sorted then i’d be happy but of course it’s tainted the experience.
Its not clear from your posts but did you buy a car, but have it modified and the supplying garage do those mods BEFORE you took ownership? And you paid the base price of the car + parts and labour of the mods, totalling a much higher amount than market value for the car?If that's the case, and especially with the supplying dealer/garage "sourcing" the car especially for you, they're likely to lose out significantly if they need to give you a refund.
Or, have you further modified the car once it was in your ownership? If that's the case, they don't have to take it back (unless the mods can be reversed, at your expense).
ETA No they don't have to accept the report of another garage, no matter how reputable they are. The supplying garage/dealer has the right to inspect the car before doing a refund for rejection. You have to clearly say you're rejecting the car and make it available for collection, the fact its a long distance away is their problem not yours. (But beware, if it is subsequently modified and the supplying dealer/garage don't give you a refund, you will have to pay the costs of getting it back to you, possibly not running).
Edited by paul_c123 on Sunday 16th March 09:11
AFAIK there is no initial right to reject in this situation (after 30 days but before 6 months).
OP has to give the seller one opportunity to repair the car.
If the car is then fine, then that's the end of the matter. If the car then fails again, for the same or another reason, then OP could then reject it as not being of satisfactory quality. I think this would be for a refund of all money paid (including car, initial repairs and modifications) but minus some amount for mileage the OP has used the car for (which sounds like not very much).
OP has to give the seller one opportunity to repair the car.
If the car is then fine, then that's the end of the matter. If the car then fails again, for the same or another reason, then OP could then reject it as not being of satisfactory quality. I think this would be for a refund of all money paid (including car, initial repairs and modifications) but minus some amount for mileage the OP has used the car for (which sounds like not very much).
They’re a car dealer who also do mechanical work and sell parts, they deal with some pricey cars so have a good reputation and i’m hoping this can get resolved. I can’t jump the gun as i’m yet to hear their response just wanting to hear some other people’s views.
So I paid for the car in multiple differing payments such as deposit, when they received the car then additional amount to make it roadworthy and remaining balance on collection. It had some issues not major and the OEM part was silly money plus only some of the parts were failed. So I chose to instead replace the whole lot with an established brand alternative, that’s the only non-standard bit and it’s not a performance modification. It actually cost me more than had I just done the OEM one but that felt false economy as it wasn’t the entire thing being changed and felt the rest of it would soon fail too. The rest of the car is as standard and even the thing I changed isn’t immediately obvious nor does it make much of a difference to the car but is non OEM nonetheless.
It’s frustrating because I had a long wait for this car and the above mentioned issues were unexpected so I had to suck up another circa £3K to put them right. I even queried the coolant with them a couple times as I know that’s a failing point on these cars but was told it was okay. I do have their mechanical report where nothing on this point was raised. Then since i’ve had it I’ve barely been able to drive it as it showed signs of issues pretty much immediately.
So I paid for the car in multiple differing payments such as deposit, when they received the car then additional amount to make it roadworthy and remaining balance on collection. It had some issues not major and the OEM part was silly money plus only some of the parts were failed. So I chose to instead replace the whole lot with an established brand alternative, that’s the only non-standard bit and it’s not a performance modification. It actually cost me more than had I just done the OEM one but that felt false economy as it wasn’t the entire thing being changed and felt the rest of it would soon fail too. The rest of the car is as standard and even the thing I changed isn’t immediately obvious nor does it make much of a difference to the car but is non OEM nonetheless.
It’s frustrating because I had a long wait for this car and the above mentioned issues were unexpected so I had to suck up another circa £3K to put them right. I even queried the coolant with them a couple times as I know that’s a failing point on these cars but was told it was okay. I do have their mechanical report where nothing on this point was raised. Then since i’ve had it I’ve barely been able to drive it as it showed signs of issues pretty much immediately.
Tarmack said:
So I paid for the car in multiple differing payments such as deposit, when they received the car then additional amount to make it roadworthy and remaining balance on collection.
What was,Age of car
Mileage
Price paid?
Acceptable condition is measured against these considerations.
Tarmack said:
.......Not long at all after buying..........
1) How long before you noticed?2) When did you inform the supplying garage/dealer?
Tarmack said:
.......... I had the car at a VAG specialist shortly after purchasing and they noted that the thermostat was leaking which I have in writing.
1) What is the date on the written evidence vs purchase date (as in, date of delivery/collection) of the car?Tarmack said:
........... It had some issues not major and the OEM part was silly money plus only some of the parts were failed. So I chose to instead replace the whole lot with an established brand alternative, that’s the only non-standard bit and it’s not a performance modification. It actually cost me more than had I just done the OEM one but that felt false economy as it wasn’t the entire thing being changed and felt the rest of it would soon fail too. The rest of the car is as standard and even the thing I changed isn’t immediately obvious nor does it make much of a difference to the car but is non OEM nonetheless.
......
1) Is "the thing" noticeable to a non-professional, or without eg diagnostic tools or dismantling the car etc?......
2) What is the value and desirability of the car as OEM, vs with "the thing"?
3) Is it an easy "thing" to replace again, or make a reasonable adjustment in value for?
(It might be better to reveal what "the thing" is).
I think that if you've paid for a bespoke project (which it sounds like you have) then just rejecting it and getting your money back is not the same as just buying a thing they have and rejecting it.
Hopefully they'll be happy to fix the car for you. Although if you paid for some fixes already, might you have to pay for these fixes as well?
Apologies if I have misunderstood the sequence of events.
Hopefully they'll be happy to fix the car for you. Although if you paid for some fixes already, might you have to pay for these fixes as well?
Apologies if I have misunderstood the sequence of events.
It is a Golf R 15 plate on 60K for which I was going to pay around £15K. The fancy DCC electronic shocks were kaput and it felt silly to only do the failed ones when ideally the whole set would be done. That would be about £2K in parts alone for all 4 corners plus would need calibrated by a VW specialist. I instead opted for a full suspension change and set to factory ride height. It’s a common change that a lot of owners appear to go for as the OEM is expensive and bit of a gimmick.
The heater was acting up on the journey home probably not even a couple hours from the place. I had a very long ride home so assuming it was the thermostat i’d of sorted it when I got back. The specialist noted it was leaking only 2 weeks since I collected it.
Then not long after the oil in coolant appeared and I waited for the recovery guy to confirm it then made them aware recently.
I do understand that I paid for some fixes but just feels wrong that I am now liable for anything that goes wrong with the thing especially considering it’s barely been driven. The whole idea of purchasing through them was to get a good condition car with their expertise in checking it prior to me collecting.
The heater was acting up on the journey home probably not even a couple hours from the place. I had a very long ride home so assuming it was the thermostat i’d of sorted it when I got back. The specialist noted it was leaking only 2 weeks since I collected it.
Then not long after the oil in coolant appeared and I waited for the recovery guy to confirm it then made them aware recently.
I do understand that I paid for some fixes but just feels wrong that I am now liable for anything that goes wrong with the thing especially considering it’s barely been driven. The whole idea of purchasing through them was to get a good condition car with their expertise in checking it prior to me collecting.
Edited by Tarmack on Sunday 16th March 11:18
Edited by Tarmack on Sunday 16th March 11:18
Edited by Tarmack on Sunday 16th March 11:19
BertBert said:
I think that if you've paid for a bespoke project (which it sounds like you have) then just rejecting it and getting your money back is not the same as just buying a thing they have and rejecting it.
Hopefully they'll be happy to fix the car for you. Although if you paid for some fixes already, might you have to pay for these fixes as well?
Apologies if I have misunderstood the sequence of events.
The exemption for bespoke goods only covers the 14 day "cooling off" period for online (or presumably, "not at business premises") contracts. I don't think this car will qualify for that.Hopefully they'll be happy to fix the car for you. Although if you paid for some fixes already, might you have to pay for these fixes as well?
Apologies if I have misunderstood the sequence of events.
So, given all the facts so far, it does seem the supplying dealer/garage was taking on a big risk in supplying a car then having modifications (not just remedial work, which pretty much every trade car would need to be suitable for retail) done. If the car is subsequently rejected under the short term right to reject (which I believe is possible in this case) they would be stuck with it and forced to refund in full, even though you effectively paid over for it - that is, unless they invoiced the items separately and you paid for them separately.
For example, if a car dealer offers to deliver a car at a certain price, they can ask for the payment of the car on one invoice and payment; and the delivery on another invoice and payment. If ever the deal was unwound, they are obligated to refund one but not the other.
The dealer should have supplied the standard car to you (retail ready) and then done the mods as a separate arrangement.
I am assuming you want to fully reject the car and unwind the deal?
And I think yes, the suspension is an issue but given the relative prices of the parts are well known, it would not be difficult to make an adjustment there and certainly not jeopardise the right to reject. Especially since they failed within 6 months.
It needed the suspension sorted to pass MOT which I had to get done regardless before collecting. So chose to have them fit a new setup instead of only doing a couple of shocks, which they wouldn’t of been able to calibrate themselves anyway. Plus there was a couple miscellaneous things like pads and filters.
I have definitely paid over the market value of the car now. I actually did not know it had the DCC option until I myself noticed it in images then brought it to their attention.
There’s various invoices, as mentioned I made numerous payments including paying them to purchase the suspension kit and the required labour. As well as just the payments for the car such as deposit, larger sum and a sum on collection.
It’s a good spec car with the options I wanted but i’d be lying if I said I didn’t think this oil issue could be sign of deeper rooted issues in the car. Totally understand that completely rejecting it will still leave me out of pocket in some way.
I have definitely paid over the market value of the car now. I actually did not know it had the DCC option until I myself noticed it in images then brought it to their attention.
There’s various invoices, as mentioned I made numerous payments including paying them to purchase the suspension kit and the required labour. As well as just the payments for the car such as deposit, larger sum and a sum on collection.
It’s a good spec car with the options I wanted but i’d be lying if I said I didn’t think this oil issue could be sign of deeper rooted issues in the car. Totally understand that completely rejecting it will still leave me out of pocket in some way.
Tarmack said:
It needed the suspension sorted to pass MOT which I had to get done regardless before collecting.
I'm confused..You had to get done before collecting?
Have you bought a car from them? or not?
If they've sold you a car, it'd be them having to do the suspension to pass an MOT?
To be any help, you're going to have to list all of the invoices you've paid, and EXACTLY what for.
I don’t want to dox myself or the company as it’s probably not difficult for them to find this post.
But to complicate it even more, it is an imported car which they brought over for me. When they inspected it in the UK they noted the failed suspension and it was up to me to sort it. I could only collect it once it was MOT’d and roadworthy.
I’ve not modded it at all, the change of suspension which I paid them for is the only non standard aspect. I’ve not even done 1000 miles, vast majority of the mileage I added was just bringing it home.
Let’s say they said it would be £15K, this consisted of an initial deposit amount. When it got here I then learned the shipping fee was payable to a different company i.e. the port. Then a larger payment followed by another smaller one. Additionally I paid them for sourcing the parts required and labour to sort them.
It’s a mess I know
But to complicate it even more, it is an imported car which they brought over for me. When they inspected it in the UK they noted the failed suspension and it was up to me to sort it. I could only collect it once it was MOT’d and roadworthy.
I’ve not modded it at all, the change of suspension which I paid them for is the only non standard aspect. I’ve not even done 1000 miles, vast majority of the mileage I added was just bringing it home.
Let’s say they said it would be £15K, this consisted of an initial deposit amount. When it got here I then learned the shipping fee was payable to a different company i.e. the port. Then a larger payment followed by another smaller one. Additionally I paid them for sourcing the parts required and labour to sort them.
It’s a mess I know
If they've split the invoices out, they only need to refund the sale of the car, if you mutually agree to a rejection and refund.
BUT they have one chance to fix whatever the current issue is with the car. You need to give them that chance. The fact that its imported, and they're hundreds of miles away, is irrelevant.
BUT they have one chance to fix whatever the current issue is with the car. You need to give them that chance. The fact that its imported, and they're hundreds of miles away, is irrelevant.
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