Toyota 86 v BMW M2
Discussion
Hi All,
I've been looking at the classifieds, as I'm sure many of us do.
I'd really like a RWD coupe, manual, not too old, with some semi-useful back seats.
It strikes me that the Toyota 86s, both GT and GR, and the BMW M2s (previous gen) sit in a similar part of the marketplace.
The BMW has 6 cylinders, more power, and a turbo
The Toyotas have less power, but less weight, and perhaps a bit more delicacy and feel.
The M2 is a bit more money to buy, but that would leave room to modify the Toyotas, and there seem to be plenty of options there.
So, for road and occasional track use, which would you buy, and why?
I've been looking at the classifieds, as I'm sure many of us do.
I'd really like a RWD coupe, manual, not too old, with some semi-useful back seats.
It strikes me that the Toyota 86s, both GT and GR, and the BMW M2s (previous gen) sit in a similar part of the marketplace.
The BMW has 6 cylinders, more power, and a turbo
The Toyotas have less power, but less weight, and perhaps a bit more delicacy and feel.
The M2 is a bit more money to buy, but that would leave room to modify the Toyotas, and there seem to be plenty of options there.
So, for road and occasional track use, which would you buy, and why?
For me, the part of your post which stands out is 'semi-usable back seats'; how semi-usable? In my experience a GT86 doesn't afford masses of room in the rear (GR86 may be different in this respect, unsure), however it's the choice I would go for along with a cheap E320CDI estate or something for if I needed to lob a coffin in the back.
GR86 for me as I'm done with BMW's. The straight 6 is a beauty but too heavy, rubbery manual and so-so reliability.
The M2 will have usable rear seats though and will be much nicer inside. That doesn't bother me at all though and would prefer the slightly lower driving position and significantly lower mass.
Much lower running costs with the GR and I guess the low power will put most off, would actually prefer it as it's more usable.
The M2 will have usable rear seats though and will be much nicer inside. That doesn't bother me at all though and would prefer the slightly lower driving position and significantly lower mass.
Much lower running costs with the GR and I guess the low power will put most off, would actually prefer it as it's more usable.
otolith said:
BMW is about 20% heavier. Suspect it's probably a better daily driver but maybe less fun to chuck about.
Yes, I think this seems about right.I passengered in an M140i around a track recently, with a decent (professional) driver; I was very impressed with how it went, no idea if it had been heavily set up for the track, but I would imagine an M2 would go well too.
My only experience of an 86 was a test drive in a BRZ, which felt a bit sluggish to me... with a supercharger added though, it could be superb!
Until recently I was a GR86 owner but decided to let it & my daily shed go & have one decent allrounder.
Anyway the GR was a lot of fun on the twisties but the power is way behind the M2 as for the rear seats I'm about 6ft & when the drivers seat was set for me the backrest was virtually touching the rear seat, it's basically a padded shelf.
Anyway the GR was a lot of fun on the twisties but the power is way behind the M2 as for the rear seats I'm about 6ft & when the drivers seat was set for me the backrest was virtually touching the rear seat, it's basically a padded shelf.
I had an original M2 and now have an M2 Competition as my daily. I did test drive a GT86 and found it underwhelming in standard spec, although I'm sure it could benefit from upgrades. In contrast, either M2 variant is a far nicer place to be and plenty quick enough for road use. If you are looking to use the car on track then the additional power and cooling of the M2C is worth considering. I also find the handling better in the M2C, the M2 was less composed in anything less than perfect conditions.
Bonzo1930 said:
Until recently I was a GR86 owner but decided to let it & my daily shed go & have one decent allrounder.
Anyway the GR was a lot of fun on the twisties but the power is way behind the M2 as for the rear seats I'm about 6ft & when the drivers seat was set for me the backrest was virtually touching the rear seat, it's basically a padded shelf.
What do you have for your allrounder? Anyway the GR was a lot of fun on the twisties but the power is way behind the M2 as for the rear seats I'm about 6ft & when the drivers seat was set for me the backrest was virtually touching the rear seat, it's basically a padded shelf.
Bonzo1930 said:
Until recently I was a GR86 owner but decided to let it & my daily shed go & have one decent allrounder.
Anyway the GR was a lot of fun on the twisties but the power is way behind the M2 as for the rear seats I'm about 6ft & when the drivers seat was set for me the backrest was virtually touching the rear seat, it's basically a padded shelf.
I'm thinking of taking a similar direction, if only because the beater is getting on and I'm doing less beater miles than a year ago. The M2 is on the list as workable one-car solution.Anyway the GR was a lot of fun on the twisties but the power is way behind the M2 as for the rear seats I'm about 6ft & when the drivers seat was set for me the backrest was virtually touching the rear seat, it's basically a padded shelf.
I've had a go in an M2C and it's owner drove my GR, and I'd value his opinion (genuinely handy!) over mine; he thought the GR drove better in every respect aside from the engine. The obvious second advantage to the M2 is a nicer, quieter and more spacious interior, for a one-car guy that has to swing it...
NB three up is doable in the GR if #2 is mid-sized adult and #3 is dinky, but that's about it; more positively the load space is flat if you drop the seats.
Edited by AmyRichardson on Tuesday 5th November 16:56
I hear what you're saying Fox, and they are of course not 100% comparable, but M2s on autotrader seem to start at £20kish, whereas GR86s go up to £32k, so they are more similar than you might think.
You're absolutely right, there are other small 3 litre BMWs to choose from of course, going all the way back to the 130i...
You're absolutely right, there are other small 3 litre BMWs to choose from of course, going all the way back to the 130i...
As others have said - only 1 car in the garage go M2. It will be more refined, more practical and generally easier to live with day to day.
But if you have another car in the garage for daily duties the GR makes a better case. It will be easier to overlook its lack of refinement and is going to be arguably more fun when the mood suits. It's perfectly quick enough and the manual gearbox is a step up from any BMW manual. Rear seats are suitable for small kids only. 10 year warranty (if serviced with Toyota) is hard to overlook.
But if you have another car in the garage for daily duties the GR makes a better case. It will be easier to overlook its lack of refinement and is going to be arguably more fun when the mood suits. It's perfectly quick enough and the manual gearbox is a step up from any BMW manual. Rear seats are suitable for small kids only. 10 year warranty (if serviced with Toyota) is hard to overlook.
i own a gt86 and considered an m2. as I see it :
GT86 in stock form is a lot slower than an m2. That said, a turbo'd one (280bhp is easy to achieve) is going to be approximately the same performance as the (stock) m2.
GT86 is a better steer, the (non-comp) m2 was not particularly well reveiwed in its day
m2 is a much nice placer to sit, more usable back seats (can get 2 kids and a grown up in a gt86 easily though, or 2 kids and 2 adults if the adults aren't too tall)
gt86 is cheaper to run, much cheaper to track, will have a warranty if its stock (10 year toyota warranty)
residuals are slightly better on the gt86 (still retaining 35% of value after 12 years)
GT86 in stock form is a lot slower than an m2. That said, a turbo'd one (280bhp is easy to achieve) is going to be approximately the same performance as the (stock) m2.
GT86 is a better steer, the (non-comp) m2 was not particularly well reveiwed in its day
m2 is a much nice placer to sit, more usable back seats (can get 2 kids and a grown up in a gt86 easily though, or 2 kids and 2 adults if the adults aren't too tall)
gt86 is cheaper to run, much cheaper to track, will have a warranty if its stock (10 year toyota warranty)
residuals are slightly better on the gt86 (still retaining 35% of value after 12 years)
I have both a GR86 manual and a M240i Auto ZF8 and they are totally different animals for sure!
First the BMW.
Much more powerful and refined and the ZF8 is great for cruising and economy yet It feels quick and urgent when you put your foot down. It handles OK with The adaptive suspension but is not The last word in feel and engagement. It's a mini GT, not a sports car.
The big plus with The BMW is that it's fairly practical with useable rear seats and a decent boot at 390 litres. Split 40:20:40 rear seats help The practicality greatly. The interior is just so well appointed and nice quality with the memory seats and Idrive is superb. It's a great car with a delicious drive train, but a sports car it isnt. I should imagine the M2 would give you something similar but much more focussed so probably more engAging drive. The B58 in line 6 is glorious and sounds great. Economy is remarkable for a 3-litre especially on a cruise but plummets around town in stop start driving.
Now the Toyota.
Feels quick enough to enjoy on the roads today, and you can rev it out whilst changing up and down the box manually of course. It's no way near as powerful as the BMW but that's not what it's about. The GR86 is a sports car, it's light and feels very chuckable and corners beautifully. It's certainly engaging but not what I would call a good daily. It's a car.you have to engage with and drive and at times I feel It could do with a bit more grunt but it's fine for what it is. Engine note is uninspiring. Economy is better than BMW more of the time as it's lighter, so better around town and not bad on a cruise - 37 mpg.
The downsides for me are that it's a bit low rent inside but acceptable. There is no where near as much room in the rear and I would consider it to be unusable for adults, you may squeeze in a smAll child depending on size of front seat occupants. It's small back there. My wife refuses to go back there!
just my opinion. I enjoy them both and in their different ways, but they are two totally different propositions!
First the BMW.
Much more powerful and refined and the ZF8 is great for cruising and economy yet It feels quick and urgent when you put your foot down. It handles OK with The adaptive suspension but is not The last word in feel and engagement. It's a mini GT, not a sports car.
The big plus with The BMW is that it's fairly practical with useable rear seats and a decent boot at 390 litres. Split 40:20:40 rear seats help The practicality greatly. The interior is just so well appointed and nice quality with the memory seats and Idrive is superb. It's a great car with a delicious drive train, but a sports car it isnt. I should imagine the M2 would give you something similar but much more focussed so probably more engAging drive. The B58 in line 6 is glorious and sounds great. Economy is remarkable for a 3-litre especially on a cruise but plummets around town in stop start driving.
Now the Toyota.
Feels quick enough to enjoy on the roads today, and you can rev it out whilst changing up and down the box manually of course. It's no way near as powerful as the BMW but that's not what it's about. The GR86 is a sports car, it's light and feels very chuckable and corners beautifully. It's certainly engaging but not what I would call a good daily. It's a car.you have to engage with and drive and at times I feel It could do with a bit more grunt but it's fine for what it is. Engine note is uninspiring. Economy is better than BMW more of the time as it's lighter, so better around town and not bad on a cruise - 37 mpg.
The downsides for me are that it's a bit low rent inside but acceptable. There is no where near as much room in the rear and I would consider it to be unusable for adults, you may squeeze in a smAll child depending on size of front seat occupants. It's small back there. My wife refuses to go back there!
just my opinion. I enjoy them both and in their different ways, but they are two totally different propositions!
W211 said:
I hear what you're saying Fox, and they are of course not 100% comparable, but M2s on autotrader seem to start at £20kish, whereas GR86s go up to £32k, so they are more similar than you might think.
But that Toyota will be virtually new for £32k, the M2 will be a 2019 car at most.An equivalent age and mileage M2 will be much more expensive.
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