Sale or return

[Volta458]

Hi. How do I get a fully legal document that can’t be fudged in terms of how much a customer really paid for a sale or return car.

I agreed a fee with a seller, but how does one know that cost that the buyer paid for the car to ensure I got what I was owed.

It wouldn’t be hard to make a fake sale recipt to match up what I got, but is there any way I can find out for sure?

I had some disputes with the company that sold by car due to an intern giving me incorrect info and I’ve a feeling that I may have been told a lower price than what the buyer actually paid for the company to recoup some money back.

Due to the new guy agreeing a price with me (that he apparently had no auth to do), I told them that’s not my issue and that if they wanted to sell the car, they need to stick to what was agreed.

They didn’t offer much push back which was odd, but it seems a bit fishy to me as they wouldn’t have earnt much and they failed to supply me with a sale receipt after asking twice.

I need some way of finding out what the seller paid but unsure where I stand legally here. As I said, they can send me a document, but it wouldn’t be conclusive in my eyes.

The only way to be sure would be to ask to see the payment into their bank. But I don’t think they’re gonna show me this.


Thanks in advance.

Edited by Volta458 on Sunday 18th August 12:00

Edited by Volta458 on Sunday 18th August 12:04

Edited by Volta458 on Sunday 18th August 12:07

[alscar]

SOR can be a bit of a minefield and it’s too late to give the advice do your research first and be very careful who you pick to do it.
In short there is no easy way to prove what the place sold your car at but if you got what you had agreed do you really care ?
I’ve done SOR twice - once with someone I knew extremely well and the second with a dealer who I knew having dealt with them previously when buying the car.
Both times the contract was very clear as to commission and what I wanted as a minimum and both times when a buyer found I was contacted straightaway for any decision.

[Volta458]

It was a extremely reputable company but I had issue after issue with multiple lies from lower level to management.

I just don’t believe the car sold for as low as what they said. I need some sort of genuine proof.

[alscar]

Volta458 said:

It was a extremely reputable company but I had issue after issue with multiple lies from lower level to management.

I just don’t believe the car sold for as low as what they said. I need some sort of genuine proof.

I guess you could just ask for it in writing and see what they say or alternatively find out the buyer’s address and ask him ?

[Panamax]

Out of interest, what's the dealer's mark-up in these situations?

I imagine it's pretty hefty even though he doesn't have to fund his "stock". It's presumably a fully warrantied trade sale.

[alscar]

Panamax said:

Out of interest, what's the dealer's mark-up in these situations?

I imagine it's pretty hefty even though he doesn't have to fund his "stock". It's presumably a fully warrantied trade sale.

Seems to vary anywhere from 4% to 7.50% depending on the type of dealer , car and deal negotiated.
Whatever the fee that should include everything including all marketing and Insurance etc.
From my experiences , both times achieved a nett to me figure higher than I would have got privately plus no hassle. I ended up paying 4.8% and 5.8% on sales figure.
One car was still under extended warranty ( Porsche ) the other no warranty but ordinarily I don’t think either Dealer would supply any form of warranty beyond perhaps statutory and frankly that was nothing to do with me anyway.

[Panamax]

I'm amazed the margin was so small, given the statutory warranty side of things. Perhaps it reflects that either cars don't go wrong vey much or it's difficult to recover from the dealer if/when they do! After all 5% on a, say, £20k car is only £1,000

[alscar]

Panamax said:

I'm amazed the margin was so small, given the statutory warranty side of things. Perhaps it reflects that either cars don't go wrong vey much or it's difficult to recover from the dealer if/when they do! After all 5% on a, say, £20k car is only £1,000

Or possibly in reality very few cars for £20k would go the SOR route from both seller and dealer prospective.

[anyoldcardave]

alscar said:

Volta458 said:

It was a extremely reputable company but I had issue after issue with multiple lies from lower level to management.

I just don’t believe the car sold for as low as what they said. I need some sort of genuine proof.

I guess you could just ask for it in writing and see what they say or alternatively find out the buyer’s address and ask him ?

Then you get involved in data protection laws, V5,s have had the previous owners details removed for this reason, and you should not be given the previous V5 by the seller, only the green slip. Obviously if you are buying privately from the recorded keeper it is not such an issue, but dealers should not be giving you this information.

Reputable company in what way? A big company may not be reputable in everything it does, those margins are too small, they very obviously sell for a higher price, it would not be worthwhile prepping a car otherwise. Unless we are talking very high value cars?

Most reputable dealers would not do sale or return, but buy your car outright, or try to, reputable and needing s or r to maintain stock, at silly low margins, does not make sense to me.

[alscar]

anyoldcardave said:

Most reputable dealers would not do sale or return, but buy your car outright, or try to, reputable and needing s or r to maintain stock, at silly low margins, does not make sense to me.

Many dealers will do SOR but it depends on their appetite for what they want in.
If the car on offer is desirable then they are using their market reputation to sell it.
On cars valued at say £50k the margins aren’t huge but get above £75k etc and for relatively little work and no outlay the margin is actually pretty decent.
That’s why as per my first reply to the OP the choice of dealer is vital.

[Panamax]

alscar said:

Panamax said:

5% on a, say, £20k car is only £1,000

Or possibly in reality very few cars for £20k would go the SOR route from both seller and dealer prospective.

Agreed, but I wouldn't want to take used car statutory warranty risk on a £60k used Porsche with just £3,000 margin. That sort of car can land you with a big bill as soon as sneeze. I'd have thought a dealer would be looking for at least 10% margin on a used car and perhaps as much as 15%

[anyoldcardave]

alscar said:

anyoldcardave said:

Most reputable dealers would not do sale or return, but buy your car outright, or try to, reputable and needing s or r to maintain stock, at silly low margins, does not make sense to me.

Many dealers will do SOR but it depends on their appetite for what they want in.
If the car on offer is desirable then they are using their market reputation to sell it.
On cars valued at say £50k the margins aren’t huge but get above £75k etc and for relatively little work and no outlay the margin is actually pretty decent.
That’s why as per my first reply to the OP the choice of dealer is vital.

I deal with a lot of dealers and main agents, they would not take a car off me on S or R, let alone a guy off the street, and certainly not for 7.5%, the higher the value the higher the risk, on a 50k car it is not enough of a margin, 20% of profit goes on VAT, even if it is only 7.5%.

Every used car needs prep, before selling, there simply is no advantage to a dealer taking on S or R at those percentages.

Agrreeing a return to the seller, and selling at whatever is a different matter, they can decide on the margin that they expect to get, but will sit on it if they do not get it, and push stock they own.

So many options to move a car these days, I am surprised anyone would choose S or R, and if doing so expect the dealer to be totally transperant when quoting such low margins, as the OP is finding out.

[Wacky Racer]

Anyone who leaves their car with any dealer, (No matter how long established they are) is crazy (imo).

Especially an expensive Supercar.

So many things can go wrong.

Of course from a dealer's point of view it's an attractive proposition.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Wacky Racer said:

Anyone who leaves their car with any dealer, (No matter how long established they are) is crazy (imo).

Especially an expensive Supercar.

So many things can go wrong.

Of course from a dealer's point of view it's an attractive proposition.

There was a big fuss in TVRland some years ago where the dealer sold several cars and didn't pay any funds over. Then went bust.

[clockworks]

I sold a car this way a few years ago. The dealer knew the car, as I bought it from them 3 years earlier, and they had serviced it.

I told them how much I wanted for it, basing my price on the most expensive private sale advertised.

What they sold it for was irrelevant, I got exactly what I wanted for it when it was sold a few weeks later.

[fflump]

clockworks said:

I sold a car this way a few years ago. The dealer knew the car, as I bought it from them 3 years earlier, and they had serviced it.

I told them how much I wanted for it, basing my price on the most expensive private sale advertised.

What they sold it for was irrelevant, I got exactly what I wanted for it when it was sold a few weeks later.

Irrelevant? You would be happy for the dealer to commit fraud and lie to you about the selling price ? Surely not?

[Monkeylegend]

fflump said:

clockworks said:

I sold a car this way a few years ago. The dealer knew the car, as I bought it from them 3 years earlier, and they had serviced it.

I told them how much I wanted for it, basing my price on the most expensive private sale advertised.

What they sold it for was irrelevant, I got exactly what I wanted for it when it was sold a few weeks later.

Irrelevant? You would be happy for the dealer to commit fraud and lie to you about the selling price ? Surely not?

I bought my Griffith from Kerridges (RIP) and sold it via them a couple of years later. They offered me a buy back price or a SR price which was significantly above the buy back price, the only difference being I had to wait until the car sold.

I did not care a jot what they actually sold the car for as long as I got the price they agreed for SR, which I did, and it only took a couple of weeks to sell.

They even posted me a CD back which they found in the cassette when they sold it.

[alscar]

anyoldcardave said:

So many options to move a car these days, I am surprised anyone would choose S or R, and if doing so expect the dealer to be totally transperant when quoting such low margins, as the OP is finding out.

I can only reiterate that in both real examples I gave I ended up better off for no hassle selling both cars on SOR.
In one case I obtained the highest amount seen for that particular vehicle in the UK at that time.
Quite accept that low margins on small values aren't economic but generally on the higher values they most certainly are otherwise the dealers in question wouldn't do it !
Also worth pointing out that some dealers are extremely fussy about what they take on anyway.
But you have to know the dealer well.

[clockworks]

fflump said:

Irrelevant? You would be happy for the dealer to commit fraud and lie to you about the selling price ? Surely not?

How could it be fraud in the circumstances that I described?
I agreed the price that I wanted, the dealer sold the car, then gave me exactly what I wanted by bank transfer.
Whether he made £2k or £10k, makes no odds. I got what I asked for, same as with a straight sale or px.


Of course, if the dealer agreed to sell the car for a fixed percentage commission, then pretended that he'd sold it for less to pocket more of the cash, that's very naughty, and fraud.


The dealer I used works on a guaranteed price to the owner, not a percentage, because it removes any doubt. If he can find a new buyer (using his marque knowledge/reputation and contacts) willing to pay a lot more, then good luck to him.
I got more than I could ever have sold it for privately, with zero hassle. He got a decent profit without having to finance the stock. The new buyer got a top quality car with a guarantee, albeit for top money.
Everybody was happy.

I bought the car for £21k, ran it for 3 years with just routine servicing, and sold it back to him for £32k.

[66HFM]

I had an Audi on SOR with an Audi specialist, we agreed on a figure I would receive for my car, anything they made over that was down to them rather than an agreed %.
Sold in a couple of weeks and both sides were happy.