Car safety - age vs size

[zxc23]

I have £7k to spend on a family car. The car needs to accommodate 3 large child seats. My no 1 priority is safety, I no longer care about image, running costs or driving dynamics. unfortunately no estate car can fit 3 modern child seats which leave me with a choice of SUV’s or MPV’s. I am aware of the multimac, but don’t want to go down this route. Here are my options as I see it:

1) £5k on a old shape 2010 ish Volvo XC90 /Audi Q7 / Merc R class + (£2k fund for maintenance)

2) £7k on a 2016 new shape S-max

All of these cars are 5 star NCAP rated, the SUV’s are all older designs, but weigh 500kg or so more than the newer designed S-max. I keep going round in circles trying to weigh up which would be safer in a big crash. For good reason there is no data out there that compares different size vehicles. Interested to know people’s opinions and experiences on the topic.

[ZX10R NIN]

All are safe but I'd go for a gen1 S Max or Galaxy they're a better option (imo) especially consider maintenance etc, I don't think you'll get a 2016 for your budget thogh:

They also drive well.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202309302...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202407141...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202404279...

Galaxy:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202403298...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202406180...

[CubanShirtEnthusiast]

What I'd do is look through the Euro NCAP crash reports for the cars you're looking at. The star rating is alright but, on more modern cars at least, it can be a bit misleading as the presence of safety assistance tech factors in as well as just crashworthiness (as in, a car might give great crash protection but not be fitted with lane keep assist, so will be 4-star rated rather than 5-star).

Specifically look at the percentage rating for adult/child occupant protection and this might give you a better idea of how well a car will protect you. You can also look at the colour-coded ratings for how well it protects specific parts of the body according to which part of the car is impacted.

Keep in mind that the percentage rating was only introduced post-2009 - reports from before then aren't quite as comprehensive.

I'm great fun at parties.

[TheRainMaker]

The further away from the crash you are, the better.

Advice given to me by a crash investigator

[samoht]

zxc23 said:

Here are my options as I see it:

1) £5k on a old shape 2010 ish Volvo XC90 /Audi Q7 / Merc R class + (£2k fund for maintenance)

2) £7k on a 2016 new shape S-max

All of these cars are 5 star NCAP rated,

Are they?
There don't appear to be any EuroNCAP tests of the R-Class
The Q7 got 4 stars in 2006 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/audi/q7/15688
Only the XC90 actually appears to hold a 5 star result, albeit from 2003

Personally I'd feel safer with a car rated 5 stars in 2015 than one rated in 2003, given how standards have moved on, even accounting for the difference in mass.

I also feel that big heavy cars with a high centre of gravity have a worse chance of avoiding the accident in the first place, so I'd prefer to have a Ford MPV which will have better roadholding and lower chance of rolling over if hitting a kerb sideways.


Having said that, I'd also think any of the above will be safe enough, and if you want to reduce risk then I'd take a step back and also consider other relevant factors.

Most obviously, a fresh set of top quality tyres (eg Michelin) at the right pressures.

Less obviously, I saw a stat that 90+% of collisions could have been avoided by either driver involved. With that in mind, if you've not previously done so I'd recommend some kind of advanced driver training for you and your co-driver. I spent three days with Colin at CAT driver training, lots of good tips and practice to continuously maintain an awareness of the road situation as it develops and avoid getting into hazardous situations. I also think this helps maintain a positive mindset rather than feeling fearful. If you can develop the attitude, skills and habits to avoid 90% of possible accidents, that will do more for your family's safety than the marginal difference in crashworthiness between two generally large, safe cars.

[Pablo16v]

I'm with ZX10R so another vote for a previous gen S-Max. Had a 2011 2.0t Ecoboost 240 Titanium X from 2012-2016 and put 75k miles on it, and it didn't miss a beat. Good to drive, a great family wagon and relatively cheap to run too. My wife and I would have another one tomorrow if we needed a sub-£10K full 5 seater or part time 7 seater.

[Pica-Pica]

Ignore NCAP, each crash outcome will be situation-specific. The driver will have the biggest effect.

[zxc23]

Good point about training and tyres. I always go with premium tyres, would be worth getting my wife some driver training though.

Having witnessed so many near misses from poorly timed overtakes my big concern is a head on with another car. Surely in this scenario a gen 1 XC90 or Q7 would fair better than a gen 1 Smax? Both designed around the same time, but Smax weighs 600kg less.

The question I’m trying to weigh up is would a gen 2 S max with a 10 year newer design fair better than an older but heavier vehicle. So physics vs advancement in design.

[zxc23]

ZX10R NIN said:

All are safe but I'd go for a gen1 S Max or Galaxy they're a better option (imo) especially consider maintenance etc, I don't think you'll get a 2016 for your budget thogh:

They also drive well.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202309302...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202407141...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202404279...

Galaxy:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202403298...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202406180...

Thanks, but there are plenty of gen2’s out there starting from £6k. I definitely would be avoiding the powershift gearbox on the gen 1’s.

[ZX10R NIN]

zxc23 said:

Thanks, but there are plenty of gen2’s out there starting from £6k. I definitely would be avoiding the powershift gearbox on the gen 1’s.

The powershift boxes (like all dual clutches) are reliable as long as they're serviced as per schedule, remember high mileage options will need a suspension refresh & be slightly higher on maintenance.

[zxc23]

The gen 1 powershifts have a terrible reputation, there have been class actions brought against Ford relating the this gearbox. I know used car dealers that won’t touch them either.

[ZX10R NIN]

I'm only talking from my experiences & I've found VAG DSG's & Ford powershifts to be about the same reliability wise, I agree dual clutches are more sensitive to regular fluid changes.

As I said make sure the fluid & filters have been done as per schedule.

As with all purchases go for the car that suits YOU best then find the best one for your budget

[samoht]

zxc23 said:

Good point about training and tyres. I always go with premium tyres, would be worth getting my wife some driver training though.

Having witnessed so many near misses from poorly timed overtakes my big concern is a head on with another car. Surely in this scenario a gen 1 XC90 or Q7 would fair better than a gen 1 Smax? Both designed around the same time, but Smax weighs 600kg less.

The question I’m trying to weigh up is would a gen 2 S max with a 10 year newer design fair better than an older but heavier vehicle. So physics vs advancement in design.

As far as I can see a Gen 1 XC90 (2003 intro) is 2100 kg, and a Gen 2 S-Max (2015 intro) is 1750 kg, taking midpoints of weights on wiki.

If you pick the XC90 and you crash head-on into another XC90 both doing 60mph, both cars will end up stationary, so 60 mph worth of deceleration.
If instead you picked the S-Max and hit the same XC90, you will end up going backwards at about 5.5 mph, so 65.5mph worth of deceleration.

So the deceleration is about 10% greater if you're in the ~20% lighter car. Against that it has likely better crumple zones, airbags, seats and belts to spread out and cushion that deceleration, being a 12 years newer design. So the injury risk is likely very similar.

Basically the small differences in mass between alternative 7-seaters aren't that significant. If you personal imported a Hummer EV at 4500kg, then you'd end up continuing forwards at about 20mph after the collision, so that would start to actually make a significant difference*. But between your available options the mass difference isn't that significant.


(* In a Canyonero, you would only lose 4mph in the collision with the XC90 - you'd barely feel it!)

[BoRED S2upid]

Going by the 10 airbags in our Volvo I’m never having anything else.

[zxc23]

samoht said:

As far as I can see a Gen 1 XC90 (2003 intro) is 2100 kg, and a Gen 2 S-Max (2015 intro) is 1750 kg, taking midpoints of weights on wiki.

If you pick the XC90 and you crash head-on into another XC90 both doing 60mph, both cars will end up stationary, so 60 mph worth of deceleration.
If instead you picked the S-Max and hit the same XC90, you will end up going backwards at about 5.5 mph, so 65.5mph worth of deceleration.

So the deceleration is about 10% greater if you're in the ~20% lighter car. Against that it has likely better crumple zones, airbags, seats and belts to spread out and cushion that deceleration, being a 12 years newer design. So the injury risk is likely very similar.

Basically the small differences in mass between alternative 7-seaters aren't that significant. If you personal imported a Hummer EV at 4500kg, then you'd end up continuing forwards at about 20mph after the collision, so that would start to actually make a significant difference*. But between your available options the mass difference isn't that significant.


(* In a Canyonero, you would only lose 4mph in the collision with the XC90 - you'd barely feel it!)

Thanks, good insight. The assumption is that each car will be designed to a safety point for its given weight, so with that logic and all else being equal the heavier car always ‘“win” as Elon would say

Would be good to know exactly how much the safety ratings have moved on over the past 20 years. I did notice that the Audi q7 dropped 4% in adult and child NCAP score between 2015 and 2019 homologation. As far as I know it was a simple face lift with some new ADAS features, so same structure.

[wyson]

Get yourselves on an IAM advanced driver course if you are concerned about safety.

In 2022, I read an article, that in the UK, there has not been a single fatality in a Volvo XC90 since its launch in 2003.

They really do take their safety seriously. When the IIHS introduce new tests, every single manufacturer apart from Volvo is caught with their pants down. Volvo’s reply is that the evidence was in the crash data made widely available to all manufacturers, so they engineered to protect against it. Which means other manufacturers engineer for crash tests.

I took a test drive in a Volvo, the key was in the dashboard. I said why not in the steering column like a ‘normal’ car. The salesman told me they moved it there because Volvo found the metal block of the lock injured people’s legs in accidents and they wanted it further away.

If you care about passive safety, Volvo XC90. IAM advanced driver training for you and your misses will be even more important than that and help you read situations and avoid accidents in the first place.

Edited by wyson on Sunday 21st July 08:27

[ChocolateFrog]

Weight is the most important factor.

NCAP rating alone is a very poor judge of how safe a car is.

If a 3t 1 star car crashes head on at speed into a 1t 5 star car then guess what, everyone in the 5 star car goes from moving forwards quickly to moving backwards in a fraction of a second and will almost certainly all be dead.

Still needs balancing with things like a car that's new enough to have curtain airbags and traction control but fundamentally having a heavy car is safer

[raspy]

zxc23 said:

I have £7k to spend on a family car. The car needs to accommodate 3 large child seats. My no 1 priority is safety, I no longer care about image, running costs or driving dynamics. unfortunately no estate car can fit 3 modern child seats which leave me with a choice of SUV’s or MPV’s. I am aware of the multimac, but don’t want to go down this route. Here are my options as I see it:

1) £5k on a old shape 2010 ish Volvo XC90 /Audi Q7 / Merc R class + (£2k fund for maintenance)

2) £7k on a 2016 new shape S-max

All of these cars are 5 star NCAP rated, the SUV’s are all older designs, but weigh 500kg or so more than the newer designed S-max. I keep going round in circles trying to weigh up which would be safer in a big crash. For good reason there is no data out there that compares different size vehicles. Interested to know people’s opinions and experiences on the topic.

A 5 star rating on a 2010 isn't equivalent to a 5 star rating on a 2016 car as the test has changed over the years. This is a good read https://www.topgear.com/car-news/crash/why-your-ol...

Personally, I would choose a vehicle in budget that has lots of tech that can automatically detect and respond to the threat of a collision faster than a human driver would.

[samoht]

ChocolateFrog said:

Weight is the most important factor.

NCAP rating alone is a very poor judge of how safe a car is.

If a 3t 1 star car crashes head on at speed into a 1t 5 star car then guess what, everyone in the 5 star car goes from moving forwards quickly to moving backwards in a fraction of a second and will almost certainly all be dead.

Still needs balancing with things like a car that's new enough to have curtain airbags and traction control but fundamentally having a heavy car is safer

Almost nobody is car shopping between a 3 tonne and a 1 tonne car, and certainly the OP isn't. In a head on collision with a 3 tonne vehicle, an XC90 would end up moving backwards at 10mph and an S-Max at 15mph. Again, you're talking about 10% difference in deceleration which is unlikely to be decisive, and certainly could be compensated for by better protection in a newer 5* car.

Weight is quite possibly the most important factor in collisions between different classes of vehicle, such as supermini collision with SUV or SUV with HGV. But between different kinds of large 7 seat family car, the 10-20% difference in weight will only result in 5-10% difference in total deceleration, so those small differences won't be decisive.

[the-norseman]

I've got a 2011 XC90.

Not sure youd get 3 child seats across the rear bench.