Court action over misdescribed car sold

[Ruprect 91]

Hi guys

I’m new on here hello
I sold a car 5 months ago now that I had taken in part exchange on a car I was previously selling.
The vehicle was a partially repaired cat s , it had numerous warning lights on the dash still, including the steering wheel , airbag and a few others I cannot remember now.
I advertised the car on auto trader as a cat s that had sustained light damage previously.
I priced it at approximately £4000 cheaper than any other similar cat s cars on there at that time obviously because of repair needed.
The car started and drove fine.
I was told by the previous owner that it had light damage with only the wing, bumper, headlight and suspension replaced, he forwarded a picture pre repair and it did look very lightly damaged, so that’s how I described it in the advert.


So a guy came to view the car, test drove it, he could see all the warning lights on the dash and asked if the main dealer might do the repairs as was still under 3 years old, I replied probably not because of being a damaged recorded car but was worth a try .

I knocked £500 off the advertised price , he paid for it , we both had a receipt with sold as seen salvage, spares or repair cat s underlined on it and drove off happy .
1 week later he contacted me asking for the previous owners details because there was a problem with the previous repairs, steering and airbag apparently .
I did text the previous owner on 3 occasions but no reply .
He wanted more info on it as whether to keep it or sell it on, I could not advise.

5 weeks later I get a letter asking for a full refund as the car was misdescribed and dangerous, I did not reply at that stage then 2 weeks later I get a letter from the county court with a claim for the whole of the vehicle plus another £950 on top.

Just wandering where I stand as a private seller on this?
Is he just trying it on

Cheers

[jhonn]

Hello, and welcome.

This has been covered many times before, you'll get all the info/reassurance that you need here (it's at the top of the page).

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Essentially, if you're a private seller (that's important), you shouldn't have any liability.

[Zetec-S]

Ruprect 91 said:

I sold a car 5 months ago now that I had taken in part exchange on a car I was previously selling.

Ruprect 91 said:

Just wandering where I stand as a private seller on this?

I'm not trying to be a dick, but most private sellers don't usually do part ex. So my question is - are you actually a private seller?

[blue_haddock]

jhonn said:

Hello, and welcome.

This has been covered many times before, you'll get all the info/reassurance that you need here (it's at the top of the page).

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Essentially, if you're a private seller (that's important), you shouldn't have any liability.

Proving he isnt a trader could be tricky as generally private sellers dont take cars in as part exchange.

That for me points towards being a trader and a judge may think that too.

[jhonn]

blue_haddock said:

Proving he isnt a trader could be tricky as generally private sellers dont take cars in as part exchange.

That for me points towards being a trader and a judge may think that too.

Indeed.

OP was the registration document in your name? Also, do you have a(n easily verifiable) history of buying/selling cars over short periods?

If your buyer can demonstrate that, then you may be regarded as a trader and have liability.

[Roger Irrelevant]

blue_haddock said:

Proving he isnt a trader could be tricky as generally private sellers dont take cars in as part exchange.

That for me points towards being a trader and a judge may think that too.

Possibly, but if the OP offered his original car for sale as a proper private sale and ended up taking the cat S car in part-payment (e.g. because he needed the cash quickly), and then sold that other cat S car on, that that's clearly not trading and I don't see why a judge wouldn't come to the same conclusion. If on the other hand the OP 'sells a few cars now and again to make a bit of extra cash' and has a paper trail of those previous sales all over Autotrader/social media, then yeah he's a trader and will be treated like one.

[MustangGT]

It is illegal to sell a car that is unroadworthy, unless it is sold as 'for spares or repair'. This would also mean it should not be driven away, but should be taken away on a low-loader or trailer.

I think the OP is on a very sticky wicket here, regardless of whether or not he is a trader.

Cat S Rules

Autotrader says:

What does Category S mean? - Category S vehicles have suffered structural damage and have been written off by the insurer as they were “uneconomical to repair”. This damage could be to any part of the vehicle's structural frame, including the chassis.

Can Category S cars be driven? - Yes, Category S cars can be driven after all repairs have been made and the car is deemed safe and roadworthy. After repairs, Cat S cars need to be re-registered with the DVLA before they go back on the roads, so check for this in the paperwork before you buy.

Edited by MustangGT on Monday 26th February 15:18

[Baldchap]

MustangGT said:

It is illegal to sell a car that is unroadworthy, unless it is sold as 'for spares or repair'. This would also mean it should not be driven away, but should be taken away on a low-loader or trailer.

I think the OP is on a very sticky wicket here, regardless of whether or not he is a trader.

OP says he clearly marked it as such. How the new owner transports it after purchase is not OP's responsibility.

[Lord_Howit_Hertz]

I'm almost certain there is middle ground now known as a 'home trader' someone who sells cars, but only a certain amount a month/week there for its a private seller that sells more often but not enough to be classed as a full trader/independent dealer (I worked in the industry kind of, as in a brand used often to sell/advertise cars).

These Home traders have no trader commitments (under the sales of goods act/fit for purpose etc) they tend to be a nightmare for the industry as on the whole they move cars from the Facebook/gumtree side of the stuff people don't want then push them through more recognised trusted channels to sell on.

PS OP this isn't me judging you, its just the buyer has no come back as its a private sale not matter what your business/way of selling cars is.

[Monkeylegend]

Ruprect 91 said:

Hi guys

I’m new on here hello
I sold a car 5 months ago now that I had taken in part exchange on a car I was previously selling.
The vehicle was a partially repaired cat s , it had numerous warning lights on the dash still, including the steering wheel , airbag and a few others I cannot remember now.
I advertised the car on auto trader as a cat s that had sustained light damage previously.
I priced it at approximately £4000 cheaper than any other similar cat s cars on there at that time obviously because of repair needed.
The car started and drove fine.
I was told by the previous owner that it had light damage with only the wing, bumper, headlight and suspension replaced, he forwarded a picture pre repair and it did look very lightly damaged, so that’s how I described it in the advert.


So a guy came to view the car, test drove it, he could see all the warning lights on the dash and asked if the main dealer might do the repairs as was still under 3 years old, I replied probably not because of being a damaged recorded car but was worth a try .

I knocked £500 off the advertised price , he paid for it , we both had a receipt with sold as seen salvage, spares or repair cat s underlined on it and drove off happy .
1 week later he contacted me asking for the previous owners details because there was a problem with the previous repairs, steering and airbag apparently .
I did text the previous owner on 3 occasions but no reply .
He wanted more info on it as whether to keep it or sell it on, I could not advise.

5 weeks later I get a letter asking for a full refund as the car was misdescribed and dangerous, I did not reply at that stage then 2 weeks later I get a letter from the county court with a claim for the whole of the vehicle plus another £950 on top.

Just wandering where I stand as a private seller on this?
Is he just trying it on

Cheers

Why would you take a car like that in part exchange as a private buyer?

[Roger Irrelevant]

Lord_Howit_Hertz said:

I'm almost certain there is middle ground now known as a 'home trader' someone who sells cars, but only a certain amount a month/week there for its a private seller that sells more often but not enough to be classed as a full trader/independent dealer...
These Home traders have no trader commitments (under the sales of goods act/fit for purpose etc)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm........not sure about that, it sounds like the sort of thing dodgy driveway traders say to convince themselves that they don't need to worry about annoying little details like consumer rights and HMRC. While there may be circumstances where it's difficult to say for certain whether somebody is a trader or not, that's not the same as there being a (more or less) clearly defined 'middle ground' where somebody can openly buy and sell cars for profit but not be a trader because they only do it a little bit. Happy to be proved wrong.

[Lord_Howit_Hertz]

Roger Irrelevant said:

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm........not sure about that, it sounds like the sort of thing dodgy driveway traders say to convince themselves that they don't need to worry about annoying little details like consumer rights and HMRC. While there may be circumstances where it's difficult to say for certain whether somebody is a trader or not, that's not the same as there being a (more or less) clearly defined 'middle ground' where somebody can openly buy and sell cars for profit but not be a trader because they only do it a little bit. Happy to be proved wrong.

If you are clearly buying and selling cars from your home only using online advertising and no proof of intending to make a profit you are classed as a home trader, certain companies will know when you use there platform how often you are advertising and may make the approach of you being a trader rather than a 'home trader' or 'driveway dealer' as you call it, but if you buy a car off facebook, wash it, put air in the tyres then stick it say on Autotrader for example, then you'd still be classed as either a private seller or (if you advertise say 8-10 cars a month from your home) a home trader. A home trader or driveway dealer doesnt have to adhere to the SOG act as they wouldn't be classed as a trader by HMRC unless it can be proved you are doing this for profit.

So advertising a car for sale and someone offers you something as PX whilst operating as a private individual as the OP alludes too, he has no fall back from HMRC's governence on the sales of goods etc.

[hairykrishna]

Lord_Howit_Hertz said:

If you are clearly buying and selling cars from your home only using online advertising and no proof of intending to make a profit you are classed as a home trader, certain companies will know when you use there platform how often you are advertising and may make the approach of you being a trader rather than a 'home trader' or 'driveway dealer' as you call it, but if you buy a car off facebook, wash it, put air in the tyres then stick it say on Autotrader for example, then you'd still be classed as either a private seller or (if you advertise say 8-10 cars a month from your home) a home trader. A home trader or driveway dealer doesnt have to adhere to the SOG act as they wouldn't be classed as a trader by HMRC unless it can be proved you are doing this for profit.

So advertising a car for sale and someone offers you something as PX whilst operating as a private individual as the OP alludes too, he has no fall back from HMRC's governence on the sales of goods etc.

Who the fk sells 8-10 cars a month without intending to make a profit?

[Richard-390a0]

"I advertised the car as a cat s that had sustained light damage"... S for structural but nevermind tis merely a flesh wound!!!!

[BertBert]

Lord_Howit_Hertz said:

If you are clearly buying and selling cars from your home only using online advertising and no proof of intending to make a profit you are classed as a home trader, certain companies will know when you use there platform how often you are advertising and may make the approach of you being a trader rather than a 'home trader' or 'driveway dealer' as you call it, but if you buy a car off facebook, wash it, put air in the tyres then stick it say on Autotrader for example, then you'd still be classed as either a private seller or (if you advertise say 8-10 cars a month from your home) a home trader. A home trader or driveway dealer doesnt have to adhere to the SOG act as they wouldn't be classed as a trader by HMRC unless it can be proved you are doing this for profit.

So advertising a car for sale and someone offers you something as PX whilst operating as a private individual as the OP alludes too, he has no fall back from HMRC's governence on the sales of goods etc.

Can you point us to the legislation that shows "home traders" exists and are treated as you say? There's actually no such thing. Just private sellers or dealers.

[Roger Irrelevant]

hairykrishna said:

Lord_Howit_Hertz said:

If you are clearly buying and selling cars from your home only using online advertising and no proof of intending to make a profit you are classed as a home trader, certain companies will know when you use there platform how often you are advertising and may make the approach of you being a trader rather than a 'home trader' or 'driveway dealer' as you call it, but if you buy a car off facebook, wash it, put air in the tyres then stick it say on Autotrader for example, then you'd still be classed as either a private seller or (if you advertise say 8-10 cars a month from your home) a home trader. A home trader or driveway dealer doesnt have to adhere to the SOG act as they wouldn't be classed as a trader by HMRC unless it can be proved you are doing this for profit.

So advertising a car for sale and someone offers you something as PX whilst operating as a private individual as the OP alludes too, he has no fall back from HMRC's governence on the sales of goods etc.

Who the fk sells 8-10 cars a month without intending to make a profit?

Yeah I'm even less convinced now! In some small sense I agree with LHH - if somebody really is buying 2 or 3 cars a week off Facebook or whatever and then selling them from home without intending to make a profit, but are simply doing it for sts n' giggles, then they aren't acting in the course of a trade (which is the crux of it for consumer rights purposes). However I would expect that in the real world the fact that somebody is selling 2 or 3 recently acquired cars a week is itself going to be taken as very, very, very strong evidence that they are a trader.

[Trevor555]

Ruprect 91 said:

I was told by the previous owner that it had light damage with only the wing, bumper, headlight and suspension replaced, he forwarded a picture pre repair and it did look very lightly damaged, so that’s how I described it in the advert.

You've described it as having had only light previous damage in your advert.

If the buyer can prove otherwise, it won't go well for you.

[MustangGT]

Baldchap said:

MustangGT said:

It is illegal to sell a car that is unroadworthy, unless it is sold as 'for spares or repair'. This would also mean it should not be driven away, but should be taken away on a low-loader or trailer.

I think the OP is on a very sticky wicket here, regardless of whether or not he is a trader.

OP says he clearly marked it as such. How the new owner transports it after purchase is not OP's responsibility.

OP should have made it clear it cannot be driven on the road without being re-registered after repair. To let it be driven off is complicity.

[M4cruiser]

Several things to be aware of here.
It may have been damaged and repaired twice. I.e. a big one before the light one you saw pictures of.
Also
How you bought it is not relevant, and I hope you didn't say to the purchaser that you took it in part exchange.
You bought it. It's yours. You sell it after a short time. Keep it simple.

[Lord_Howit_Hertz]

BertBert said:

Can you point us to the legislation that shows "home traders" exists and are treated as you say? There's actually no such thing. Just private sellers or dealers.

I didn't say there is a legislation, its just the industry now recognises the difference between myself and you selling our car as having had enough of it, to someone who is buying and selling cars but not making enough noise for HMRC to be interested as they are not operating as a declared business.

you would be surprised on the number of 'home traders' they are a named middle ground between us and a independent car dealer' there is a gap in the legislation that allows them to buy and sell and stay under the radar (about 8-10 cars a month when I was last working in the industry of reporting revenue for a large car advertising company). They have the benefits of a private seller and no repercussions of a trade seller. As I said, middle ground/gap in the industry.