Opinions sought for used car problem
Discussion
The symptoms of a non returning clutch pedal sound to me like the failure of either the clutch master cylinder, or clutch slave cylinder.
Being hydraulic, the master pushes oil down the clutch pipe into the slave, which pushes a piston to overcome the clutch springs and separate it.
With the seal being lost,the pedal is no longer pushed back up by spring pressure when you take your foot off it.
Master cylinder is about 1 hour upsidedown in the footwell and underneath the master cylinder. Bleeding can be a pita as often you have to push fluid in from the slave end.
The slave cylinder is nowadays concentric inside the gearbox, so a gearbox off job unless you're fortunate to have an external slave cylinder (my 2003 focus was concentric though, so it seems unlikely ford will have changed this).
If the gearbox is off, you might as well have a new clutch in at the same time (as most of the cost of a clutch change is getting the box off/on).
Ultimately, within 4 days of a trade sale, this is clearly a fault the dealer needs to fix. So you are right to stick to your guns. The warranty as ever is a red herring, as it does nothing to change the dealer's obligation. And as you've found, they're generally worthless..
Fwiw when clutch cylinders have failed in my cars, it's generally been sudden, so I doubt a longer test drive would have revealed it.
Good luck with it. If it has been a private sale, you would be pretty stuck.
Ian
Being hydraulic, the master pushes oil down the clutch pipe into the slave, which pushes a piston to overcome the clutch springs and separate it.
With the seal being lost,the pedal is no longer pushed back up by spring pressure when you take your foot off it.
Master cylinder is about 1 hour upsidedown in the footwell and underneath the master cylinder. Bleeding can be a pita as often you have to push fluid in from the slave end.
The slave cylinder is nowadays concentric inside the gearbox, so a gearbox off job unless you're fortunate to have an external slave cylinder (my 2003 focus was concentric though, so it seems unlikely ford will have changed this).
If the gearbox is off, you might as well have a new clutch in at the same time (as most of the cost of a clutch change is getting the box off/on).
Ultimately, within 4 days of a trade sale, this is clearly a fault the dealer needs to fix. So you are right to stick to your guns. The warranty as ever is a red herring, as it does nothing to change the dealer's obligation. And as you've found, they're generally worthless..
Fwiw when clutch cylinders have failed in my cars, it's generally been sudden, so I doubt a longer test drive would have revealed it.
Good luck with it. If it has been a private sale, you would be pretty stuck.
Ian
I assume yo might be in the motor trade ..
Yes warranties are rubbish, no they don’t normally cover anything until 30 days after date of inception. They will normally only covered the failed part so while it’s apart you might want to change the clutch -the part would be at your expense. No you don’t need an independent, most charge a premium but are not always any better than a garage that deals in anything.
You also need to budget for a cambelt, I would not go to Fords interval of 10 years and you need to budget £1300 to do it right.
Yes warranties are rubbish, no they don’t normally cover anything until 30 days after date of inception. They will normally only covered the failed part so while it’s apart you might want to change the clutch -the part would be at your expense. No you don’t need an independent, most charge a premium but are not always any better than a garage that deals in anything.
You also need to budget for a cambelt, I would not go to Fords interval of 10 years and you need to budget £1300 to do it right.
loskie said:
Does your debit card give you any protection?
No it doesn't is the correct answer I think ? This is a regular on Jonathan Vernon Smiths Consumer Show on 3 Counties Radio . Its effectively the same as handing over Cash . Credit Card is always the way to go where purchasing something is concerned .Had something similar when trying to claim on a used car warranty with a DS3 Racing re.: labour costs and reluctance to spend too much time investigating a problem. The labour limits is to stop someone clocking up £100's in labour investigating a fault which may or may not be covered under the warranty.
However, the fault sounds like the Master Slave Cylinder as someone else has already said (I had this fail on the way home from buying a used Twingo RS - yes, I've bought some lemons in my time!), which is no biggie. To be fair to the dealer, there are no warning signs - they just go. In my case, the warranty picked up the tab no issues, but the dealer was quick to offer to pay in case warranty didn't cover.
In my opinion, I'd send the car to a garage the warranty recommends and go from there. Used car warranties are fairly slim in terms of coverage, so you don't get the luxury of using preferred garages, but if you go with one they suggest this sounds like a relatively straightforward repair. If not, then I'd initiate rejecting the car.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and all that, but in future always pay for a car using a credit card - even if you pay £1 on Credit Card and £7999 on Debit Card and pay off the CC balance immediately, you will have protection for the full purchase amount in case the dealer doesn't play ball....
However, the fault sounds like the Master Slave Cylinder as someone else has already said (I had this fail on the way home from buying a used Twingo RS - yes, I've bought some lemons in my time!), which is no biggie. To be fair to the dealer, there are no warning signs - they just go. In my case, the warranty picked up the tab no issues, but the dealer was quick to offer to pay in case warranty didn't cover.
In my opinion, I'd send the car to a garage the warranty recommends and go from there. Used car warranties are fairly slim in terms of coverage, so you don't get the luxury of using preferred garages, but if you go with one they suggest this sounds like a relatively straightforward repair. If not, then I'd initiate rejecting the car.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and all that, but in future always pay for a car using a credit card - even if you pay £1 on Credit Card and £7999 on Debit Card and pay off the CC balance immediately, you will have protection for the full purchase amount in case the dealer doesn't play ball....
BunkMoreland said:
Hello to everyone.
I bought a used car and would like some opinions on what to do. Bit of a ramble so apologies in advance
So I bought a used car. History and less than 80k on the clock. Bought from a small trader an hour an a half away from me. I HPi checked it at the time. All ok. Had a short test drive. The trader came with me and we got about a km down the road and he said "turn round on this roundabout and head back" He said his insurance only covered road tests for a short distance. Car was OK during the test drive.
Got a small amount of money knocked off as it only had 1 key. Paid in full on a debit card. (less than £8K) Trader also helped me pay the VED on my Credit card. And told me about the 6 month warranty included in the sale. I'm aware that a lot of these aftermarket warranties aren't great, but it was thrown in for free. They are also a member of the "AA approved trader" scheme. I drove it home. Within a mile a brake bulb warning light came up on the dash. Made me laugh, but wasn't concerned. Figured Id just get to a Halfords at some stage and buy a bulb to fit myself.
4 days later (maybe 200miles) the clutch pedal stuck down whilst in traffic. As in, when I tried to pull away and lift my foot up the pedal stayed down and the clutch remained disconnected. So no drive. Stamped on it a few times, nothing. So hooked it back up with my foot and repressed it. This time it worked. It didn't feel spongy like there was air in the system. Just like it wasn't releasing the clutch. My gut is it's a problem at the clutch itself. Whether that's the pressure plate jamming the release bearing or whatever I cant say at this stage. This happened a few more times on my way home. I've recorded a video of it happening on my phone as evidence. Id rather not upload it here as it's got the reg of the car in. There's no puddle of clutch fluid under the car that I can see or in the footwell by the pedals at this time.
Emailed the trader, with the video, that evening saying the problem and I need to speak to them urgently the next day. Told them at this stage I was open to all suggestions. I didn't want to just demand my money back or start quoting Sales of Goods act or whatever. To be fair they responded promptly. Their first email stated, without any request from me, that the fault was not there when I bought the car. Felt like they were already trying to shift blame.
They pointed me in direction of the warranty company. I spoke to the warranty company who were OK, advising me that I can book the car in wherever I want. But there's a limit on the labour rate they will pay. (£60) Asked around friends for any recommendations for a good indie. Got a recommendation and called them. Told them the story and that it was an aftermarket warranty. They said they can book it in, 10 days away. But that their labour rate is a bit higher (85+vat) so there will need to be someone make up that difference. And they also said as it had only been a few days, best bet is just to take it back under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. I've checked on the CAB website and it confirms I can just hand it back within 30 days. In the past I thought you had to allow 1 attempt to repair, but that has been removed until after 30 days.
Also has to meet the criteria for "fit for purpose" OR "of satisfactory quality" A 8 year old car unable to be driven I would have thought covers that!
I cannot link the CAB website yet but there's a section on used car buying. Which involved 2 questions. Date of Purchase and "trader or private" It confirms I have the right to a full refund
Went back to the Trader and asked them to cover the difference in labour rates. They tried to put me off saying that they couldn't commit to that until they knew what the costs were likely to be. This didn't sit well with me, because, being cynical. I expect them to dispute any sensible costs as "not right" They also told me not to drive the car as any consequential damage will not be covered and they reserve the right to have inspections done to see if my actions had resulted in further costs. I enquired about some form of loan/courtesy car for the next week or so until my car was fixed but they ignored this. (just has to have seats and move, doesn't have to be anything too special)
I told them their reply wasn't acceptable given the fault had occurred so soon after purchase, and I formally requested by email they refund me the full purchase cost and collect the car under the CRA 2015. (Trader also has to pay for collection if you're not local and unable to be driven)
Its annoying because obviously I'm going to lose some of the VED for this month. And the car is currently full to the top of fuel. So another £70 give or take
They ignored my request for refund and replied saying they would likely cover the difference, but would need to see costs before proceeding. This felt like a cop out when they knew exactly what the likely initial costs would be. There are book times for jobs. A clutch replacement is apparently just under 6 hours or so for this car. So they are looking at the 6 hours of the difference. And the warranty company would presumably cover the parts.
Only they won't! I read the warranty booklet. And there's a passage in there about excluding people with certain jobs or professions. Which I sadly fall in to. (the car is not used for my job, or in any commercial fashion. Just commuting) To be fair to the trader, they didn't ask me what I do for a living. And I wouldn't have expected it to matter anyway. This sort of falls under the part of the CRA2015 "fit for purpose" A warranty is no good if its entirely invalid due to my job!
Friends have said "just reject it" But then I'm back to square 1 looking for a new car again and right now its slim pickens for anything I fancy. My old car has gone. We're obviously hitting the rainy season in the UK and being without a car is a faff!
Relatives have said "just get it fixed yourself" I don't actually dislike the car. But this whole experience has soured it considerably. And my concern is obviously that its a lemon which was punted by its previous owner due to looming bills.
But whilst I can accept the failure may or may not have been known about by the trader, its not on me to spend out several hundred when I bought car from a trader instead of a private sale to offer some form of redress. I did consider asking or demanding the trader fix the car at their cost. But I suspect they will go down the route of either saying they will only cover costs once I've paid for a diagnosis, presumably me paying to have the gearbox removed. Or they will want the car back to be fixed by "their choice" of repairer, whom I may not approve, and which will probably involve bodging it and saying its fixed. And then hoping they get past the 30 day window
So I now have a car I must not drive, no alternative transport, obviously will rack up alternative commuting costs, a warranty that wont cover the fault and a trader that is clearly not willing to pick up the costs if they can possibly find a way not to. I did consider asking the trader for a partial refund of say £2K to make up the lack of warranty. The warranty is max of £2k per claim. But I suspect they wont be interested in that given how they are quibbling 6 hours of £25+ vat for the labour difference.
I'm going to once again request a full refund and for them to collect the car from my home at their cost as per the CRA 2015. if they refuse what's my legal route to force them to.
But can anyone think of any alternative course of action or compromise?
Good to know you got it sorted I bought a used car and would like some opinions on what to do. Bit of a ramble so apologies in advance
So I bought a used car. History and less than 80k on the clock. Bought from a small trader an hour an a half away from me. I HPi checked it at the time. All ok. Had a short test drive. The trader came with me and we got about a km down the road and he said "turn round on this roundabout and head back" He said his insurance only covered road tests for a short distance. Car was OK during the test drive.
Got a small amount of money knocked off as it only had 1 key. Paid in full on a debit card. (less than £8K) Trader also helped me pay the VED on my Credit card. And told me about the 6 month warranty included in the sale. I'm aware that a lot of these aftermarket warranties aren't great, but it was thrown in for free. They are also a member of the "AA approved trader" scheme. I drove it home. Within a mile a brake bulb warning light came up on the dash. Made me laugh, but wasn't concerned. Figured Id just get to a Halfords at some stage and buy a bulb to fit myself.
4 days later (maybe 200miles) the clutch pedal stuck down whilst in traffic. As in, when I tried to pull away and lift my foot up the pedal stayed down and the clutch remained disconnected. So no drive. Stamped on it a few times, nothing. So hooked it back up with my foot and repressed it. This time it worked. It didn't feel spongy like there was air in the system. Just like it wasn't releasing the clutch. My gut is it's a problem at the clutch itself. Whether that's the pressure plate jamming the release bearing or whatever I cant say at this stage. This happened a few more times on my way home. I've recorded a video of it happening on my phone as evidence. Id rather not upload it here as it's got the reg of the car in. There's no puddle of clutch fluid under the car that I can see or in the footwell by the pedals at this time.
Emailed the trader, with the video, that evening saying the problem and I need to speak to them urgently the next day. Told them at this stage I was open to all suggestions. I didn't want to just demand my money back or start quoting Sales of Goods act or whatever. To be fair they responded promptly. Their first email stated, without any request from me, that the fault was not there when I bought the car. Felt like they were already trying to shift blame.
They pointed me in direction of the warranty company. I spoke to the warranty company who were OK, advising me that I can book the car in wherever I want. But there's a limit on the labour rate they will pay. (£60) Asked around friends for any recommendations for a good indie. Got a recommendation and called them. Told them the story and that it was an aftermarket warranty. They said they can book it in, 10 days away. But that their labour rate is a bit higher (85+vat) so there will need to be someone make up that difference. And they also said as it had only been a few days, best bet is just to take it back under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. I've checked on the CAB website and it confirms I can just hand it back within 30 days. In the past I thought you had to allow 1 attempt to repair, but that has been removed until after 30 days.
Also has to meet the criteria for "fit for purpose" OR "of satisfactory quality" A 8 year old car unable to be driven I would have thought covers that!
I cannot link the CAB website yet but there's a section on used car buying. Which involved 2 questions. Date of Purchase and "trader or private" It confirms I have the right to a full refund
Went back to the Trader and asked them to cover the difference in labour rates. They tried to put me off saying that they couldn't commit to that until they knew what the costs were likely to be. This didn't sit well with me, because, being cynical. I expect them to dispute any sensible costs as "not right" They also told me not to drive the car as any consequential damage will not be covered and they reserve the right to have inspections done to see if my actions had resulted in further costs. I enquired about some form of loan/courtesy car for the next week or so until my car was fixed but they ignored this. (just has to have seats and move, doesn't have to be anything too special)
I told them their reply wasn't acceptable given the fault had occurred so soon after purchase, and I formally requested by email they refund me the full purchase cost and collect the car under the CRA 2015. (Trader also has to pay for collection if you're not local and unable to be driven)
Its annoying because obviously I'm going to lose some of the VED for this month. And the car is currently full to the top of fuel. So another £70 give or take
They ignored my request for refund and replied saying they would likely cover the difference, but would need to see costs before proceeding. This felt like a cop out when they knew exactly what the likely initial costs would be. There are book times for jobs. A clutch replacement is apparently just under 6 hours or so for this car. So they are looking at the 6 hours of the difference. And the warranty company would presumably cover the parts.
Only they won't! I read the warranty booklet. And there's a passage in there about excluding people with certain jobs or professions. Which I sadly fall in to. (the car is not used for my job, or in any commercial fashion. Just commuting) To be fair to the trader, they didn't ask me what I do for a living. And I wouldn't have expected it to matter anyway. This sort of falls under the part of the CRA2015 "fit for purpose" A warranty is no good if its entirely invalid due to my job!
Friends have said "just reject it" But then I'm back to square 1 looking for a new car again and right now its slim pickens for anything I fancy. My old car has gone. We're obviously hitting the rainy season in the UK and being without a car is a faff!
Relatives have said "just get it fixed yourself" I don't actually dislike the car. But this whole experience has soured it considerably. And my concern is obviously that its a lemon which was punted by its previous owner due to looming bills.
But whilst I can accept the failure may or may not have been known about by the trader, its not on me to spend out several hundred when I bought car from a trader instead of a private sale to offer some form of redress. I did consider asking or demanding the trader fix the car at their cost. But I suspect they will go down the route of either saying they will only cover costs once I've paid for a diagnosis, presumably me paying to have the gearbox removed. Or they will want the car back to be fixed by "their choice" of repairer, whom I may not approve, and which will probably involve bodging it and saying its fixed. And then hoping they get past the 30 day window
So I now have a car I must not drive, no alternative transport, obviously will rack up alternative commuting costs, a warranty that wont cover the fault and a trader that is clearly not willing to pick up the costs if they can possibly find a way not to. I did consider asking the trader for a partial refund of say £2K to make up the lack of warranty. The warranty is max of £2k per claim. But I suspect they wont be interested in that given how they are quibbling 6 hours of £25+ vat for the labour difference.
I'm going to once again request a full refund and for them to collect the car from my home at their cost as per the CRA 2015. if they refuse what's my legal route to force them to.
But can anyone think of any alternative course of action or compromise?
Edited by BunkMoreland on Sunday 8th December 22:56
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