Best (usable) drivers car for B-roads (Euro4+ OR 30+ years)

[CorradoB]

Good morning PHers,

I feel stuck in my reasoning and thought that a little bit of joint brainstorming could have helped.

I currently live in Madrid, where I am surrounded by amazing B-roads, and where the metropolitan area is undergoing a tightening of its Low Emissions Zone regulations. Basically, anything that it isn't at least Euro4 (or higher in the future), or at least 30 years old (thus eligible for historical vehicle status) cannot enter the city.

I have a couple of "toy" cars that unfortunately do not qualify for neither of the two conditions, and hence I have to store them outiside of the city. This in theory is not a problem as I like to enjoy my cars on mountain roads etc., however it has severely limited the chances to take the cars for a quick drive as I have to account a 2hr penalty in terms of commute time to/from storage location etc.

Therefore, I am trying to understand if there is a car I could take home say on a Thursday or Friday night, and then casually enjoy over the weekend (or even occasionally use to commute to the office).

Ideally it should be

- FUN and ENGAGING to drive (meaning it should feel alive at 20-30 mph already, with lots of mechanical and acoustic feedback etc.). I don't care about sheer performance, I only care about emotions. This IS a deal-breaker.

- with some level of practicality (e.g., 4 seats preferred over 2, but not a must)

- possibly not too flashy (e.g., I would avoid driving to the office in a mid-engined sportscar or in a roadster), although this is not necessarily a deal-breaker if the car is otherwise perfect for my needs

- with low to none depreciation expected (I am not planning to earn money on capital gain, but neither I can afford throwing money out of the window)

- ideally <50k

- of course, either Euro 4 (or superior), or 30+ years old (but not too fragile)

Many thanks in advance!!!

Ciao,
Corrado

Edited by CorradoB on Monday 14th November 09:05

[Pit Pony]

You just need an 1.4T automatic Astra.

Great on any road.

[kiethton]

Porsche 944 turbo?

BMW E30 M3?

Lotus Elise/Exige?

[RoVoFob]

CorradoB said:

Therefore, I am trying to understand if there is a car I could take home say on a Thursday or Friday night, and then casually enjoy over the weekend (or even occasionally use to commute to the office).

Ideally it should be

- FUN and ENGAGING to drive (meaning it should feel alive at 20-30 mph already, with lots of mechanical and acoustic feedback etc.). I don't care about sheer performance, I only care about emotions. This IS a deal-breaker.

- with some level of practicality (e.g., 4 seats preferred over 2, but not a must)

- possibly not too flashy (e.g., I would avoid driving to the office in a mid-engined sportscar or in a roadster), although this is not necessarily a deal-breaker if the car is otherwise perfect for my needs

- with low to none depreciation expected (I am not planning to earn money on capital gain, but neither I can afford throwing money out of the window.

Edited by CorradoB on Monday 14th November 09:05

These are many of the reasons I bought my BMW 130i. It’s cheap, low-key, seems to have stopped depreciating, is engaging at slow speeds with hydraulic steering (on pre-2007 models), a revvy but torquey naturally aspirated six-cylinder engine that sounds great, rear-wheel-drive, and 20hp more than a Cayman of the same age while only weighing about 40kg more.

It’s also decently practical - currently it’s my only transport and it’s surprisingly good for carting around my eight-month-old son in a rear-facing child seat. With your requirements there’s mo need to spend much to get something suitable, as it’s older Euro4 cars that fit the bill best and many of them are 15-20 years old…

[itcaptainslow]

A GT86 ticks all of those boxes, and then some.

[mac96]

Alive at 20mph? A classic (BLMC/Rover) Mini. Even has 4 seats.

[CorradoB]

Pit Pony said:

You just need an 1.4T automatic Astra.

Great on any road.

Hi Pit Pony!
Sorry, I didn't specify that but I would prefer a manual over an auto 'box if possible. A hot hatch per se could be a good solution.
Thanks for the suggestion!
Best,
Corrado

[CorradoB]

kiethton said:

Porsche 944 turbo?

BMW E30 M3?

Lotus Elise/Exige?

Hi kiethton, thanks for the suggestions!

I have actually considered a 944 S2, a 944 turbo, or a 968. The S2/turbo have good to excellent performance, I am just not too sure about engagement (tbh I still need to test drive a well sorted one). On a similar note, a 968 CS probably would feel much more "alive", but it is so difficult to find one over here (and prices are getting quite high).

An E30 M3 would be spot on in many ways, but definitely above my maximum budget (if we talk about a well sorted one).

Elise / Exige: love them, and sooner or later I would like to get one (ideally S1)... but a bit too sacrificed in terms of daily usability, plus the Euro 4+ ones are a bit expensive over here (an S3 with supercharger costs more than its original MSRP).

Cheers,
Corrado

[CorradoB]

RoVoFob said:

These are many of the reasons I bought my BMW 130i. It’s cheap, low-key, seems to have stopped depreciating, is engaging at slow speeds with hydraulic steering (on pre-2007 models), a revvy but torquey naturally aspirated six-cylinder engine that sounds great, rear-wheel-drive, and 20hp more than a Cayman of the same age while only weighing about 40kg more.

It’s also decently practical - currently it’s my only transport and it’s surprisingly good for carting around my eight-month-old son in a rear-facing child seat. With your requirements there’s mo need to spend much to get something suitable, as it’s older Euro4 cars that fit the bill best and many of them are 15-20 years old…

Hi RoVoFob,

a 130i is a very interesting proposition indeed. Tried a later LE with electric steering, didn't find it very engaging to be honest but loved the engine (a masterpiece in the 3L class). I should probably try one with hydraulic steering as well. Perfect in terms of daily usability, stealth enough to be driven to the office.

Is it a blast on B-roads?

Cheers,
Corrado

[CorradoB]

itcaptainslow said:

A GT86 ticks all of those boxes, and then some.

Hi itcaptainslow,

yes, I have been looking at those! As well as at the newer GR86 (although always a bit worried for depreciation).

Since we are mentioning Toyota... what about a GR Yaris?

I test drove it and found it EXTREMELY fast and competent, but a tad too serious (no playfulness at all). I have to admit it was a short test drive, and I didnt' have the chance to connect with the car as much as I wished.

Cheers,
Corrado

[CorradoB]

mac96 said:

Alive at 20mph? A classic (BLMC/Rover) Mini. Even has 4 seats.

Hi mac96,

you are right. So right, actually, that we have been owning and enjoying one for the last 20 years . I just find it a bit fragile and "exposed" for everyday driving on the motorway... plus it has no aircon so I can't really use it when we have 40+ degrees.

But that's exactly what I mean by alive!

Cheers,
Corrado

[bigandclever]

For me, the answer is (probably always!) a Peugeot 205 GTi, 1.9.

[RoVoFob]

CorradoB said:

Hi RoVoFob,

a 130i is a very interesting proposition indeed. Tried a later LE with electric steering, didn't find it very engaging to be honest but loved the engine (a masterpiece in the 3L class). I should probably try one with hydraulic steering as well. Perfect in terms of daily usability, stealth enough to be driven to the office.

Is it a blast on B-roads?

Cheers,
Corrado

I’ve had a 2007 with electric steering, and 2005 and 2006 ones with hydraulic steering. I prefer the hydraulic steering, but the bigger difference with mine came from having decent tyres (my facelift model had runflats which destroyed the ride and cut the grip level in half) and the engine mapping. The facelift felt more torquey, but the pre-facelifts seem to rev better - especially my current one which I swear has been remapped (though the guy I bought it from repeatedly told me it hadn’t) as it revs really energetically.

My current one has a set of Goodyear Eagle F1 5s and Bilstein B12 Pros and I love the way it drives. It’s firm but still decently comfy, the steering is very direct, the throttle response is instant and it makes everything from accelerating onto a 30mph road to zooming along a country road really satisfying. For me it feels analogue and is really enjoyable to drive at slow speeds - partly thanks to the short gearing - while still being decently quick for when you want to easily overtake things.

As for B roads - it’s great on smooth, winding roads. It gets a bit flustered on really bumpy stretches, but it’d have to be so much softer to absorb those much better, that I blame the road for that, not the car!

[mac96]

CorradoB said:

mac96 said:

Alive at 20mph? A classic (BLMC/Rover) Mini. Even has 4 seats.

Hi mac96,

you are right. So right, actually, that we have been owning and enjoying one for the last 20 years . I just find it a bit fragile and "exposed" for everyday driving on the motorway... plus it has no aircon so I can't really use it when we have 40+ degrees.

But that's exactly what I mean by alive!

Cheers,
Corrado

I understand what you mean about feeling exposed. Wasn't something that worried me in 1975, but we have got used to bigger and safer cars!

[Pit Pony]

CorradoB said:

Pit Pony said:

You just need an 1.4T automatic Astra.

Great on any road.

Hi Pit Pony!
Sorry, I didn't specify that but I would prefer a manual over an auto 'box if possible. A hot hatch per se could be a good solution.
Thanks for the suggestion!
Best,
Corrado

I'd have bought a second hand VXR but not available without auto, and i was determined to have a car my wife would also be able to drive.
Also very difficult to find one standard.

[ZX10R NIN]

What about a Twingo RS, I'm not sure how easy they are to find in Spain.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211011...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202202202...

[georgeyboy12345]

I'm not sure about the Spanish car market, but I'd definitely be tempted to go with the "older" strategy as depreciation will be a non-issue. What is the situation with salting the roads in winter in Spain, do they do it? I know that some regions can be quite mountainous with lots of ice and even snow in winter, which would possibly make me rule out the old car strategy. Also, I understand Madrid can get incredibly hot in the summer, so surely AC is another practical consideration, which might rule lots of older cars out?

Looking on autotrader (which isn't very good for old cars), I found these

1989 Mercedes 190 E 2.5-16 Cosworth
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202204265...


1993 JDM Subaru Impreza Turbo WRX
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/201704094...


1993 Alpina B2.5 E36 (Cat C, but shouldn't matter in Spain and because of how old it is)
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/201802063...


On Pistonheads, I could find these

1990 Porsche 944 Turbo
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/12264875


1987 Porsche 928 S4
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/13918332


1993 Nissan Skyline R32 GT-R
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/13889345

[Kawasicki]

As a previous owner of a 944 Turbo… it was not engaging to drive at low speeds. It was refined, and pretty fast.

[georgeyboy12345]

Ok, just been having a nosey on car and classic, what about one of these?

1990 BMW E34 M5 for sale in Portugal
https://www.carandclassic.com/car/C1192461


1986 Alfa Romeo GTV6 for sale in Spain
https://www.carandclassic.com/car/C1179782


1972 Volvo P1800E for sale in Netherlands
https://www.carandclassic.com/car/C1505586


1975 Seat 124 Abarth Sport Coupe for sale in Spain
https://www.carandclassic.com/car/C1176058

[fflump]

Kawasicki said:

As a previous owner of a 944 Turbo… it was not engaging to drive at low speeds. It was refined, and pretty fast.

Staying with old Porkers the 3.6 964 could be worth considering.