Road and track - E92 M3 vs M4
Discussion
Hi all,
I'm looking for a car for weekend road use, holidays in Europe, 6 UK trackdays per year and an annual trip to the Ring. I've just ruled out a 911 or Lotus for various reasons along with many other cars. My choices really are down to an E92 M3 and an M4.
It'll be modified to "Clubsport" spec (yeah, I hate that phrase too). Seats, half cage, rear stripped. Lighter wheels with semi slicks for track. Big brake kit. EDC with lowered springs and full alignment.
The pros I can see to the E92 M3 are
- Much simpler engine
- V8 engine sound
- N/A power delivery
- No depreciacion (might even start to climb)
The pros I can see to the M4 are:
- Much more power (550bhp with a remap)
- Much, much more torque. Over a broad spread. A mapped one beats even a supercharged V8 M3 by 100nm!
- Better turn-in by all accounts
- Better brakes (4 pots?)
- Better looking (IMO)
- Nicer interior (IMO)
- Marginally lighter
- Marginally newer
In all honesty my head says the M4 wins hands down. I just have the old nostalgic heart within me craving an N/A engine and a V8. Has anyone here owned one or both?
Thanks
PS - I really don't want suggestions of other cars!
I'm looking for a car for weekend road use, holidays in Europe, 6 UK trackdays per year and an annual trip to the Ring. I've just ruled out a 911 or Lotus for various reasons along with many other cars. My choices really are down to an E92 M3 and an M4.
It'll be modified to "Clubsport" spec (yeah, I hate that phrase too). Seats, half cage, rear stripped. Lighter wheels with semi slicks for track. Big brake kit. EDC with lowered springs and full alignment.
The pros I can see to the E92 M3 are
- Much simpler engine
- V8 engine sound
- N/A power delivery
- No depreciacion (might even start to climb)
The pros I can see to the M4 are:
- Much more power (550bhp with a remap)
- Much, much more torque. Over a broad spread. A mapped one beats even a supercharged V8 M3 by 100nm!
- Better turn-in by all accounts
- Better brakes (4 pots?)
- Better looking (IMO)
- Nicer interior (IMO)
- Marginally lighter
- Marginally newer
In all honesty my head says the M4 wins hands down. I just have the old nostalgic heart within me craving an N/A engine and a V8. Has anyone here owned one or both?
Thanks
PS - I really don't want suggestions of other cars!
I had an F30 M3 whilst my brother had his well sorted M3 while my car was quicker in every way (it was mapped) & was the better car, his was the more engaging experience.
I put that down to the engine steering feel exhaust note etc BUT his car has cost him & still is even though it leads a pampered life I didn't gel with my F30 but they're still a good car.
For your usage I'd go for the newer car but go for the M3 imo it looks so much better than the M4.
I put that down to the engine steering feel exhaust note etc BUT his car has cost him & still is even though it leads a pampered life I didn't gel with my F30 but they're still a good car.
For your usage I'd go for the newer car but go for the M3 imo it looks so much better than the M4.
interesting conundrum to have.
I am not overtly a fan of the e92 M3 so coming to this objectively.
The M4 is lighter and more powerful. Lower CG. More torque. On paper it beats the M3 for what your looking for.
The cost is a question, as you could pick up a m3 cheaper than the m4 and the money saved could be used towards track modifications.
That said you mentioned buying the Clubsport version of the M4, which adds to the budget considerably but i don't think if you bought a cheaper m3 and stripped it for a track you'd save money in the long run over the M4.
An alternative suggestion would be a gt4 - a small chunk more to buy outright but less needed in the long run to make it the car you seem to want?
Secondly, maybe the m2 should be considered. Excellent on the road and excellent on the track (even before some modifications). Just not as outright a weapon as the m4.
The naturally aspirated engine is a peach and suited to the track for my driving style. Keeping rev's high and the linear power band just makes it really nice to drive on track without the worry that you are going to find that limit as quick as you will in the m4. I wouldn't say it set my world on fire, but having driven one round the ring, it was very composed and useable and given the ring is a formidable track, it felt safer.
The m4 however is a leap forwards from the m3 in almost everyway. But, to get the most of it, you can find you go beyond that limit quite quickly so i guess it then comes down to what you want driving experience wise. If you are happy to keep it on that edge and be ok to go beyond it and keep it controlled the m4 is a far more exciting car. It corners better, it accelerates out the corner faster, flatter etc. But you are in a position where a throttle input can send it quite quickly beyond that edge of excellence and find yourself looking the opposite way.
Whereas, in the m3. It is possible to lose but i found it a lot harder to do so as its not as always on it like the m4 is. The power isn't always there at your foot in the m3 and that's just a feature of an n/a v8. You have to really make it sing before you start to find that limit. So for me it serves as a better track car because its more controllable for me as a driver on a track.
You may find that you don't want that from the car you put on track and you are a better driver than i am in which case the m4 is hands down a better car. Better on the street and on the track and just that bit more wild and unruly which for a lot of people will mean its the winner. For me though, the fact the m3 doesn't feel like it wants to kill me all the time would be the one that i have. But once i've got used to it, power, the edge of performance and beyond etc. I can see myself going "you know what, time to sell and upgrade to the m4 and start learning that "
Perhpas not much help. GL with what you decide to do.
I am not overtly a fan of the e92 M3 so coming to this objectively.
The M4 is lighter and more powerful. Lower CG. More torque. On paper it beats the M3 for what your looking for.
The cost is a question, as you could pick up a m3 cheaper than the m4 and the money saved could be used towards track modifications.
That said you mentioned buying the Clubsport version of the M4, which adds to the budget considerably but i don't think if you bought a cheaper m3 and stripped it for a track you'd save money in the long run over the M4.
An alternative suggestion would be a gt4 - a small chunk more to buy outright but less needed in the long run to make it the car you seem to want?
Secondly, maybe the m2 should be considered. Excellent on the road and excellent on the track (even before some modifications). Just not as outright a weapon as the m4.
The naturally aspirated engine is a peach and suited to the track for my driving style. Keeping rev's high and the linear power band just makes it really nice to drive on track without the worry that you are going to find that limit as quick as you will in the m4. I wouldn't say it set my world on fire, but having driven one round the ring, it was very composed and useable and given the ring is a formidable track, it felt safer.
The m4 however is a leap forwards from the m3 in almost everyway. But, to get the most of it, you can find you go beyond that limit quite quickly so i guess it then comes down to what you want driving experience wise. If you are happy to keep it on that edge and be ok to go beyond it and keep it controlled the m4 is a far more exciting car. It corners better, it accelerates out the corner faster, flatter etc. But you are in a position where a throttle input can send it quite quickly beyond that edge of excellence and find yourself looking the opposite way.
Whereas, in the m3. It is possible to lose but i found it a lot harder to do so as its not as always on it like the m4 is. The power isn't always there at your foot in the m3 and that's just a feature of an n/a v8. You have to really make it sing before you start to find that limit. So for me it serves as a better track car because its more controllable for me as a driver on a track.
You may find that you don't want that from the car you put on track and you are a better driver than i am in which case the m4 is hands down a better car. Better on the street and on the track and just that bit more wild and unruly which for a lot of people will mean its the winner. For me though, the fact the m3 doesn't feel like it wants to kill me all the time would be the one that i have. But once i've got used to it, power, the edge of performance and beyond etc. I can see myself going "you know what, time to sell and upgrade to the m4 and start learning that "
Perhpas not much help. GL with what you decide to do.
stevekoz said:
Secondly, maybe the m2 should be considered. Excellent on the road and excellent on the track (even before some modifications). Just not as outright a weapon as the m4.
I agree with that. For me the M2 is a more focused and fun version of the M4. I really can't understand why it drives so differently as it's the same weight and uses most of the M bits. Even the fact that the wheelbase is shorter should make it even less stable but for some reason it's a more predictable steer near the limit in a more compact package. It's very pointy yet so tractable.
I would try and drive both if you can see which one suits your driving style.
Both are great cars, fantastic all rounders and I see quite a few are used for track days etc
I have an E92 M3 and that V8 is intoxicating, nowhere near as quick as the M4 and obviously the M4 is a newer car so will automatically be better in areas like turn in, brakes etc
I would also look at budget, you can pick some cracking M3’s up for sub 20k and spend a a quarter of the amount getting it to ‘club sport’ spec and have a blisteringly quick car on track for £25k. If you try to buy an M4 for £25k it’s gonna be higher mileage, potentially wanting for certain things before you even start to look at modifying for track, would soon become a £35k car..
Also maybe talk to a few garages about setup etc.. for example, RDautomotive has a workshop in Dartford area that focuses on setting up cars (mainly E92s) for track use, I’m sure Ryan would be able to give you some sound advice about the do’s and dont’s and the differences between the M3 / M4 on track.. he runs an E92 M3 I believe..
Good luck either way!
Both are great cars, fantastic all rounders and I see quite a few are used for track days etc
I have an E92 M3 and that V8 is intoxicating, nowhere near as quick as the M4 and obviously the M4 is a newer car so will automatically be better in areas like turn in, brakes etc
I would also look at budget, you can pick some cracking M3’s up for sub 20k and spend a a quarter of the amount getting it to ‘club sport’ spec and have a blisteringly quick car on track for £25k. If you try to buy an M4 for £25k it’s gonna be higher mileage, potentially wanting for certain things before you even start to look at modifying for track, would soon become a £35k car..
Also maybe talk to a few garages about setup etc.. for example, RDautomotive has a workshop in Dartford area that focuses on setting up cars (mainly E92s) for track use, I’m sure Ryan would be able to give you some sound advice about the do’s and dont’s and the differences between the M3 / M4 on track.. he runs an E92 M3 I believe..
Good luck either way!
5mileofdeath said:
I would also look at budget, you can pick some cracking M3’s up for sub 20k and spend a a quarter of the amount getting it to ‘club sport’ spec and have a blisteringly quick car on track for £25k. If you try to buy an M4 for £25k it’s gonna be higher mileage, potentially wanting for certain things before you even start to look at modifying for track, would soon become a £35k car..
You'd be surprised. I've got an offer on a friends' Cat D repaired M4, 50k, new turbos, crank mod done. 550bhp. £22k!Also, I suspect the M4 will be a few MPG better, which over 3 years of ownership would claw some of that back.
I don't have experience of the M4 but have had an E92 since July '19, it's a June 2013 manual so one of the very last built.
I wanted a V8 and it's one of the last opportunities to have one with a manual, which was incredibly hard to find - specifically a LCI.
I also prefer NA cars.
Naturally the engine is the focus, the way it revs reminds me of my old sports bikes. However it's also arguably one of the issues; if you have any mechanical sympathy you'll want to allow it to get to operating temperature, which can take 10+ miles, more so this time of year with the weight of the oil (10W-60). Then you want to ring it's neck, and frankly opportunities to do so are few and far between, the rest of the time though you can tell that engines up front I think it feels fairly ordinary - arguably due to its roots I appreciate.
I think you have to ask yourself what you really want from the car, given everything I've read about the M4 and its improvements since 2014 it may or may not better suit your requirements.
Hope that's helped a bit!
Oh and it feels its weight, 'til you're using that power then it feels superb, some kind of trickery how they do that, guess that's the M magic?
I wanted a V8 and it's one of the last opportunities to have one with a manual, which was incredibly hard to find - specifically a LCI.
I also prefer NA cars.
Naturally the engine is the focus, the way it revs reminds me of my old sports bikes. However it's also arguably one of the issues; if you have any mechanical sympathy you'll want to allow it to get to operating temperature, which can take 10+ miles, more so this time of year with the weight of the oil (10W-60). Then you want to ring it's neck, and frankly opportunities to do so are few and far between, the rest of the time though you can tell that engines up front I think it feels fairly ordinary - arguably due to its roots I appreciate.
I think you have to ask yourself what you really want from the car, given everything I've read about the M4 and its improvements since 2014 it may or may not better suit your requirements.
Hope that's helped a bit!
Oh and it feels its weight, 'til you're using that power then it feels superb, some kind of trickery how they do that, guess that's the M magic?
Edited by acme on Tuesday 26th January 17:00
acme said:
I don't have experience of the M4 but have had an E92 since July '19, it's a June 2013 manual so one of the very last built.
I wanted a V8 and it's one of the last opportunities to have one with a manual, which was incredibly hard to find - specifically a LCI.
I also prefer NA cars.
Naturally the engine is the focus, the way it revs reminds me of my old sports bikes. However it's also arguably one of the issues; if you have any mechanical sympathy you'll want to allow it to get to operating temperature, which can take 10+ miles, more so this time of year with the weight of the oil (10W-60). Then you want to ring it's neck, and frankly opportunities to do so are few and far between, the rest of the time though you can tell that engines up front I think it feels fairly ordinary - arguably due to its roots I appreciate.
I think you have to ask yourself what you really want from the car, given everything I've read about the M4 and its improvements since 2014 it may or may not better suit your requirements.
Hope that's helped a bit!
Oh and it feels its weight, 'til you're using that power then it feels superb, some kind of trickery how they do that, guess that's the M magic?
Thankyou.I wanted a V8 and it's one of the last opportunities to have one with a manual, which was incredibly hard to find - specifically a LCI.
I also prefer NA cars.
Naturally the engine is the focus, the way it revs reminds me of my old sports bikes. However it's also arguably one of the issues; if you have any mechanical sympathy you'll want to allow it to get to operating temperature, which can take 10+ miles, more so this time of year with the weight of the oil (10W-60). Then you want to ring it's neck, and frankly opportunities to do so are few and far between, the rest of the time though you can tell that engines up front I think it feels fairly ordinary - arguably due to its roots I appreciate.
I think you have to ask yourself what you really want from the car, given everything I've read about the M4 and its improvements since 2014 it may or may not better suit your requirements.
Hope that's helped a bit!
Oh and it feels its weight, 'til you're using that power then it feels superb, some kind of trickery how they do that, guess that's the M magic?
Edited by acme on Tuesday 26th January 17:00
I can only assume it would be in it's element on a motorway or autobahn. But rather "caged" stuck in 40-50mph B-road traffic.
What's it like "off the boil"? Just pootling around? I had an E46 M3 and quite enjoyed that side of it.
Trackdayer said:
Thankyou.
I can only assume it would be in it's element on a motorway or autobahn. But rather "caged" stuck in 40-50mph B-road traffic.
What's it like "off the boil"? Just pootling around? I had an E46 M3 and quite enjoyed that side of it.
It's a semi daily so doesn't get used loads, I've done 5k miles since I got it.I can only assume it would be in it's element on a motorway or autobahn. But rather "caged" stuck in 40-50mph B-road traffic.
What's it like "off the boil"? Just pootling around? I had an E46 M3 and quite enjoyed that side of it.
Me and a mate went to Wales in it in September & did 800 miles (in place of Le Mans!) and it was superb; very comfortable, despite the manual revving higher (typical manual M car) it was doing 25-27mpg on the motorway and a lovely place to be. In the Brecons and Snowdonia it was superb fun too.
On the commute, least when we did such a thing yes it could feel like a caged animal, a good description. In that respect it really does remind me of my bikes.
Off the boil it feels fairly ordinary, but I do think that's a reflection of modern cars, NVH levels etc are well contained. I also have a 993 and that has far more character, but the M3 utterly destroys it performance wise, obvious I accept, but I wasn't prepared for just how much so.
Thing is they'll never make an engine like the S65 again, if that was in a Ferrari/Lamborghini/Mclaren etc it wouldn't be out of place.
I did 10k miles in my E92 M3 as a daily and I didn't rate it in that environment, however apart from the brakes(they are poor even on the road) I would enjoy it much more on a track. It hides its weight well when you are pushing on, and in a track environment you can enjoy what it is best at(very high revs/max power is at 8300rpm). As a daily I'd much prefer the M4(lots more torque lower down/easier to enjoy the performance for me).
My brother loves his E90 he's pretty much had everything done to his including a bottom end rebuild etc BUT when I was moving my M3 even leaving it with him for a month didn't convince him to buy it.
He's a fanboy having had a E36 M3 GT as well as an E46 CS & he wasn't swayed by the newer car but I think the newer will suit your needs better.
He's a fanboy having had a E36 M3 GT as well as an E46 CS & he wasn't swayed by the newer car but I think the newer will suit your needs better.
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