Lexus LS400 or Jaguar XJ? Barge shootout!
Discussion
Afternoon,
As discussed on the smoker barge thread, I'm looking to buy a car in September to replace my now departed 106 Rallye. The tasking for this car comes down to fairly light usage, mainly for commuting over winter and one weekend every five weeks. I expect to do maybe 3000-4000 miles a year. My route consists of a few miles of B roads, then a belt down a bit of dual carriageway.
Why must it be a barge I buy? Well, I previously had an A8, which was fantastic and during my ownership of the 106 Rallye, whilst it was always fun, the comfort and refinement were missed. I have a motorbike for having fun on (which also handles most of the commuting duty). So I'm not after a performance car per se, nor am I interested in a fast crossover car like an Impreza or Lancer Evolution. The brief for the car is that it should be refined, luxurious, sexy and impress me every time I sit in it. Another D2 A8 would seem like the perfect fit, since I've already had one, but the one I sold was a beauty; very high spec, in great shape with great history. I'm not likely to find another one as good as that, and if were to buy another, I doubt I'd get as lucky with those gearboxes again! I find the D3 A8 utterly unappealing in many respects - it marks the advent of design and construction in Audi cars that I find extremely offputting, so the option of buying a newer A8 is out.
My heart had really been set on an X308 Jaguar. It's been years since I sat in one, but I was drawn back to their classically good looks. The interior looks delightful. Some say it is cramped, and I appreciate that it's smaller than the competition but that doesn't matter to me. It's usually just me in the car, sometimes with the wife, and that's it. Maybe with a bag or two of soft luggage in the boot for trips away. In terms of reliability, they have a bit of a iffy reputation but proper research suggests there is little to go wrong with them other than possible rattle from the cam chain due to slack tensioners, and rust. The old bugbears like nikasil liners seem to have faded into the distance. I'd ideally be looking for a 4.0 rather than a 3.2, though I gather they both produce the same sort of economy (I recall reading that the differential gearing on the 3.2 is lower to compensate for the reduced capacity?). They seem to be relatively easy to source, you still see plenty of them around. I discovered this morning that they were sold against the 5 Series/E Class market, despite being more of an A8/S Class competitor in terms of size and refinement. That explains their plentiful numbers - I always thought they just sold loads because they were a classically British car with fantastic looks and heritage! Does the Jaguar feel suitably high end up close?
Yesterday, my world was rocked by an LS400. I went along to see one at a nearby garage, just to have a nose around. As I say, I'm not planning on buying until September or so. Hell on earth, what a machine. I've not sat in a contemporary full sized executive car since selling my A8, and I had forgotten how fantastic that sort of machine is. The Lexus looked incredible. Thick, glossy paint, a stout and broad stance. The most impressive thing was getting in the cabin, which most people cite as the weak point of the LS400, saying it's bland but well screwed together. I loved it. I could see myself spending many a happy hour there. The main criticism of the LS400 seems to be that it's characterless. But I found it very charming. I could happily own one. The flawless Japanese engineering appeals to me, I love Japanese products.
So, which way should I go at this fork in the road? Will a close inspection of a Jaguar charm me back to the British bruiser, or has this passing flirtation with the LS400 turned my head for good? Which one would you go for? Advice and thoughts appreciated.
Or...
As discussed on the smoker barge thread, I'm looking to buy a car in September to replace my now departed 106 Rallye. The tasking for this car comes down to fairly light usage, mainly for commuting over winter and one weekend every five weeks. I expect to do maybe 3000-4000 miles a year. My route consists of a few miles of B roads, then a belt down a bit of dual carriageway.
Why must it be a barge I buy? Well, I previously had an A8, which was fantastic and during my ownership of the 106 Rallye, whilst it was always fun, the comfort and refinement were missed. I have a motorbike for having fun on (which also handles most of the commuting duty). So I'm not after a performance car per se, nor am I interested in a fast crossover car like an Impreza or Lancer Evolution. The brief for the car is that it should be refined, luxurious, sexy and impress me every time I sit in it. Another D2 A8 would seem like the perfect fit, since I've already had one, but the one I sold was a beauty; very high spec, in great shape with great history. I'm not likely to find another one as good as that, and if were to buy another, I doubt I'd get as lucky with those gearboxes again! I find the D3 A8 utterly unappealing in many respects - it marks the advent of design and construction in Audi cars that I find extremely offputting, so the option of buying a newer A8 is out.
My heart had really been set on an X308 Jaguar. It's been years since I sat in one, but I was drawn back to their classically good looks. The interior looks delightful. Some say it is cramped, and I appreciate that it's smaller than the competition but that doesn't matter to me. It's usually just me in the car, sometimes with the wife, and that's it. Maybe with a bag or two of soft luggage in the boot for trips away. In terms of reliability, they have a bit of a iffy reputation but proper research suggests there is little to go wrong with them other than possible rattle from the cam chain due to slack tensioners, and rust. The old bugbears like nikasil liners seem to have faded into the distance. I'd ideally be looking for a 4.0 rather than a 3.2, though I gather they both produce the same sort of economy (I recall reading that the differential gearing on the 3.2 is lower to compensate for the reduced capacity?). They seem to be relatively easy to source, you still see plenty of them around. I discovered this morning that they were sold against the 5 Series/E Class market, despite being more of an A8/S Class competitor in terms of size and refinement. That explains their plentiful numbers - I always thought they just sold loads because they were a classically British car with fantastic looks and heritage! Does the Jaguar feel suitably high end up close?
Yesterday, my world was rocked by an LS400. I went along to see one at a nearby garage, just to have a nose around. As I say, I'm not planning on buying until September or so. Hell on earth, what a machine. I've not sat in a contemporary full sized executive car since selling my A8, and I had forgotten how fantastic that sort of machine is. The Lexus looked incredible. Thick, glossy paint, a stout and broad stance. The most impressive thing was getting in the cabin, which most people cite as the weak point of the LS400, saying it's bland but well screwed together. I loved it. I could see myself spending many a happy hour there. The main criticism of the LS400 seems to be that it's characterless. But I found it very charming. I could happily own one. The flawless Japanese engineering appeals to me, I love Japanese products.
So, which way should I go at this fork in the road? Will a close inspection of a Jaguar charm me back to the British bruiser, or has this passing flirtation with the LS400 turned my head for good? Which one would you go for? Advice and thoughts appreciated.
Or...
Also in favour of the Lexus, I work near a Lexus main dealer, fantastic staff and service there. I've been in for work related matters a few time, and despite the fact they knew I wasn't there as a customer the staff were always happy to help, the sales manager even came down to chat about the new GS/LS range and which 7 series was his favourite! You just don't get that level of service elsewhere, other than maybe Mercedes.
You'll get no help from me I'm afraid, I love them both. I've only owned the LS400 and I really miss it, it's a sublime thing to waft around in. The Jag is still on my list of "I've got to own one of those at some point".
I also don't understand people who call the Lexus characterless. It has character in spades - it's just a very subtle, restrained character. It is Alfred the butler in car form
I also don't understand people who call the Lexus characterless. It has character in spades - it's just a very subtle, restrained character. It is Alfred the butler in car form
Jag (or Daimler) for me, far more inviting interior, classic styling, great ride.
I've had a few of Jags (SIII, X300 4.0s manual, and XJ40 Daimler) and loved every single one.
Friend of mine has a newer LS460 that I've driven a few times over long distances, and it does its job fantastically but it just felt a bit.. meh, not a car you would get out of, walk away at look back over your shoulder at, whereas the Jag you would.
I fancy trying an XJ-R or Super V8 sometime in the future.
I've had a few of Jags (SIII, X300 4.0s manual, and XJ40 Daimler) and loved every single one.
Friend of mine has a newer LS460 that I've driven a few times over long distances, and it does its job fantastically but it just felt a bit.. meh, not a car you would get out of, walk away at look back over your shoulder at, whereas the Jag you would.
I fancy trying an XJ-R or Super V8 sometime in the future.
Baryonyx said:
You just don't get that level of service elsewhere, other than maybe Mercedes.
Ah Mercedes dealer service. How come it's always near the bottom of the pile in customer satisfaction surveys, then?Granted Lexus and Subaru are usally at the top.
If I had to do average mileage (12k) then head would tell me to buy the Lexus, but since the originator is only doing 3-4k pa, then the heart says Jaguar.
Can't see a budget mentioned anywhere in your first post. My vote would firmly be with the XJ. Push the boat out and buy an XJR, sod the fuel economy. Frequent trips to a petrol station are worth it just to see the word supercharged in the dash cluster.
The LS400 has been on my list of cars to own for quite a while now, seen a few up close but they lack the special feel and sense of occasion that the XJ has for me. My £1300 X308 R felt well built despite its age and mileage. Little things like the sound of the doors closing and the feel of the interior were spot on for me.
The LS400 has been on my list of cars to own for quite a while now, seen a few up close but they lack the special feel and sense of occasion that the XJ has for me. My £1300 X308 R felt well built despite its age and mileage. Little things like the sound of the doors closing and the feel of the interior were spot on for me.
The Crack Fox said:
Jag, every time, you've done your homework so you'll know the gap in quality between them and Lexis isn't that great. Look at the exterior, the Jag looks interesting. The Lexus just looks like a big cheap saloon car.
You're kidding right? Little bit of insight from someone who has actual experience of both cars. I processed warranty claims for Lexus in the 90's. Or rather, I didn't, because they never went wrong, and I mean, never! I did this job for years, and I thought it was the easiest money I'd ever make.Then I got involved in working for my wife's Jag Indy place in Southampton. There wasn't anything on Jags that you could point at and say " that'll still be working in a year " . They can't even build a reliable door handle! And it turned out that repairing Jags was the easiest money I ever made, because the cars are rubbish, and the owners are mad and love spending money on them.
Buy the Jag at your peril, buy the Lexus and relax. Even a poorly maintained Lexus will be more reliable than a mint Jag.
Heaveho said:
You're kidding right? Little bit of insight from someone who has actual experience of both cars. I processed warranty claims for Lexus in the 90's. Or rather, I didn't, because they never went wrong, and I mean, never! I did this job for years, and I thought it was the easiest money I'd ever make.
Then I got involved in working for my wife's Jag Indy place in Southampton. There wasn't anything on Jags that you could point at and say " that'll still be working in a year " . They can't even build a reliable door handle! And it turned out that repairing Jags was the easiest money I ever made, because the cars are rubbish, and the owners are mad and love spending money on them.
Buy the Jag at your peril, buy the Lexus and relax. Even a poorly maintained Lexus will be more reliable than a mint Jag.
Then I got involved in working for my wife's Jag Indy place in Southampton. There wasn't anything on Jags that you could point at and say " that'll still be working in a year " . They can't even build a reliable door handle! And it turned out that repairing Jags was the easiest money I ever made, because the cars are rubbish, and the owners are mad and love spending money on them.
Buy the Jag at your peril, buy the Lexus and relax. Even a poorly maintained Lexus will be more reliable than a mint Jag.
I think I read it on here that the Jag forums are full of 'this is broken, that's gone wrong, this other thing has fallen off' whereas the Lexus forums are 'what polish shall I use' or 'south of france or amalfi coast, where should I go'.
I'd have the Lexus, personally. Although I do agree that they look a little dull.
[quote=Baryonyx]Afternoon,
Yesterday, my world was rocked by an LS400. I went along to see one at a nearby garage, just to have a nose around. As I say, I'm not planning on buying until September or so. Hell on earth, what a machine. I've not sat in a contemporary full sized executive car since selling my A8, and I had forgotten how fantastic that sort of machine is. The Lexus looked incredible. Thick, glossy paint, a stout and broad stance. The most impressive thing was getting in the cabin, which most people cite as the weak point of the LS400, saying it's bland but well screwed together. I loved it. I could see myself spending many a happy hour there. The main criticism of the LS400 seems to be that it's characterless. But I found it very charming. I could happily own one. The flawless Japanese engineering appeals to me, I love Japanese products.
This paragraph, in a nutshell, would indicate that you'll always feel it was a mistake to buy something else. Once you've had some time living with one, you'll appreciate it even more. There's nothing comparable or as well engineered as an ownership prospect in that market sector, at the sort of money it'll cost.
Yesterday, my world was rocked by an LS400. I went along to see one at a nearby garage, just to have a nose around. As I say, I'm not planning on buying until September or so. Hell on earth, what a machine. I've not sat in a contemporary full sized executive car since selling my A8, and I had forgotten how fantastic that sort of machine is. The Lexus looked incredible. Thick, glossy paint, a stout and broad stance. The most impressive thing was getting in the cabin, which most people cite as the weak point of the LS400, saying it's bland but well screwed together. I loved it. I could see myself spending many a happy hour there. The main criticism of the LS400 seems to be that it's characterless. But I found it very charming. I could happily own one. The flawless Japanese engineering appeals to me, I love Japanese products.
This paragraph, in a nutshell, would indicate that you'll always feel it was a mistake to buy something else. Once you've had some time living with one, you'll appreciate it even more. There's nothing comparable or as well engineered as an ownership prospect in that market sector, at the sort of money it'll cost.
OneTwo said:
I'd go with the XJ, although your budget should stretch to an X350 - which although looking cosmetically similar to th X308 you've suggested is much more advanced.
The X350 was initially on my 'watch' list, but it's out of budget at the moment. There has to be some flex in the finance to cope with me doing DAS come winter. So the budget for the car will be capped at around £2500 or so. Hence why, as appealing as the XJR is, it's off the list! I've no requirement to pay for more and have higher running costs for more performance. As long as it'll cruise at 90 (on the Autobahn) and receive Radio 4, it'll do me! What was the score with the Daimler Super V8 models? Are they merely a cosmetic package? They appear to be high spec X308's with some custom trim parts. I presume they were sold the Jaguar dealer chain?
Baryonyx said:
What was the score with the Daimler Super V8 models? Are they merely a cosmetic package? They appear to be high spec X308's with some custom trim parts. I presume they were sold the Jaguar dealer chain?
Daimlers with the supercharged V8, more leather and wood, individual rear seats.Pickled said:
Baryonyx said:
What was the score with the Daimler Super V8 models? Are they merely a cosmetic package? They appear to be high spec X308's with some custom trim parts. I presume they were sold the Jaguar dealer chain?
Daimlers with the supercharged V8, more leather and wood, individual rear seats.hornetrider said:
Heaveho said:
You're kidding right? Little bit of insight from someone who has actual experience of both cars. I processed warranty claims for Lexus in the 90's. Or rather, I didn't, because they never went wrong, and I mean, never! I did this job for years, and I thought it was the easiest money I'd ever make.
Then I got involved in working for my wife's Jag Indy place in Southampton. There wasn't anything on Jags that you could point at and say " that'll still be working in a year " . They can't even build a reliable door handle! And it turned out that repairing Jags was the easiest money I ever made, because the cars are rubbish, and the owners are mad and love spending money on them.
Buy the Jag at your peril, buy the Lexus and relax. Even a poorly maintained Lexus will be more reliable than a mint Jag.
Then I got involved in working for my wife's Jag Indy place in Southampton. There wasn't anything on Jags that you could point at and say " that'll still be working in a year " . They can't even build a reliable door handle! And it turned out that repairing Jags was the easiest money I ever made, because the cars are rubbish, and the owners are mad and love spending money on them.
Buy the Jag at your peril, buy the Lexus and relax. Even a poorly maintained Lexus will be more reliable than a mint Jag.
I think I read it on here that the Jag forums are full of 'this is broken, that's gone wrong, this other thing has fallen off' whereas the Lexus forums are 'what polish shall I use' or 'south of france or amalfi coast, where should I go'.
I'd have the Lexus, personally. Although I do agree that they look a little dull.
Mine is a six cylinder one. They are mechanically unburstable. I am a frequent poster on Jag forums for my model (XJ40). The XJ40 forum has many members with XJ40s and X300s. They don't go wrong much, particularly considering even the youngest are all over 20 years old. Mostly they talk about rust. There are lots of posts about rust.
I would have said, the Jag, but.... I've had quite a few 300/308s and while they are a very 'special' place to sit and look back at and the drive can be quite surprising in how refined and sporty it can feel at the same time (an incredible feat I think), the 'bork' factor is HUGE!
Now that I'm a cripple and can no longer do my own repairs/maintenance and will have to pay some other bugger to do it, a Jaguar is just out of the question. There always seems to be 'something' that needs doing on the Jaguars - brakes, bushes, electrics etc. The engines in my experience have been fine though I did have the dreaded cam chain rattle on one of them, but there is always the feeling of fragility about them.
I really want a Lexus now. Thought about them for years but always gone Jaguar/Mercedes instead. Now that I require something comfortable, smooth and overall, reliable, I think a nice LS/GS430 is in my near future.
p.s.
Yes I did want a Bentley Turbo R but the horror stories on upkeep have scared me off!
Now that I'm a cripple and can no longer do my own repairs/maintenance and will have to pay some other bugger to do it, a Jaguar is just out of the question. There always seems to be 'something' that needs doing on the Jaguars - brakes, bushes, electrics etc. The engines in my experience have been fine though I did have the dreaded cam chain rattle on one of them, but there is always the feeling of fragility about them.
I really want a Lexus now. Thought about them for years but always gone Jaguar/Mercedes instead. Now that I require something comfortable, smooth and overall, reliable, I think a nice LS/GS430 is in my near future.
p.s.
Yes I did want a Bentley Turbo R but the horror stories on upkeep have scared me off!
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