Exactly the same running costs, would you go ICE or EV?
Discussion
No one answer to this for me. Our little E-Up is the perfect car for the daily school runs. About 50 miles each day plus some other short runs throughout the week. If the cost of owning and running that were identical to an ICE, I'd pick the EV every time simply because of the convenience of never having to fill it up. Remote pre-heating and a smooth power train are nice too.
For our larger family car, it's trickier because we do fairly frequent longer journeys. Normally up to about 260 miles but also an annual jaunt over the channel which would normally involve the odd 600 mile day. Things are improving quickly on that front but as it stands I'd rather wait a little longer and see the charging network become much more robust first. I think there is at least one more ICE for us for this usage after our current 535i leaves us. That will probably be at least 2 years away and there will still be plenty of non-EV options on the used market. After that one, who knows, it might be slim pickings for buying newish family cars with an interesting ICE power train.
For fun cars or even a daily that might double up as a fun car, I was going to say 100% ICE given what is currently available but.... I don't hate the idea of an EV converted original Fiat 500 or Beetle as a fun summer local run about. I doubt I'd ever justify buying one but they do appeal. Anything more sporty and it's still petrol all the way for me and I'm yet to see anything on the horizon that is likely to change that.
For our larger family car, it's trickier because we do fairly frequent longer journeys. Normally up to about 260 miles but also an annual jaunt over the channel which would normally involve the odd 600 mile day. Things are improving quickly on that front but as it stands I'd rather wait a little longer and see the charging network become much more robust first. I think there is at least one more ICE for us for this usage after our current 535i leaves us. That will probably be at least 2 years away and there will still be plenty of non-EV options on the used market. After that one, who knows, it might be slim pickings for buying newish family cars with an interesting ICE power train.
For fun cars or even a daily that might double up as a fun car, I was going to say 100% ICE given what is currently available but.... I don't hate the idea of an EV converted original Fiat 500 or Beetle as a fun summer local run about. I doubt I'd ever justify buying one but they do appeal. Anything more sporty and it's still petrol all the way for me and I'm yet to see anything on the horizon that is likely to change that.
Tye Green said:
Whenever this comparison comes up I can't get the Smash Martians advert out of my head...
"on your last visit did you discover what the earth people drive"?
"they drive a great many of these" <picture of an ICE vehicle followed by sniggering from the martians>
"they fill them with dead dinosaurs to use as fuel" <raucous laughter >
"they drive them and enjoy the smell and vibrations" <martians pissing themselves with laughter>
"they are clearly a most primitive people " <martians rolling around on the floor>.
in a few years time EVs will charge much more quickly, have higher capacity batteries which are solid state & thus so much lighter.
by then, their uptake will have reached the tipping point whereby they're cheaper to make than ICE vehicles so ICE vehicles will be seen as quaint and suitable only Sunday drives or museums.
What prompted me to start the thread, was that I had a Tesla behind me this morning, and I saw 2 coming the other way and this was in a space of about 20 seconds. So at least around me...EVs are becoming very popular, and it just make me think really. "on your last visit did you discover what the earth people drive"?
"they drive a great many of these" <picture of an ICE vehicle followed by sniggering from the martians>
"they fill them with dead dinosaurs to use as fuel" <raucous laughter >
"they drive them and enjoy the smell and vibrations" <martians pissing themselves with laughter>
"they are clearly a most primitive people " <martians rolling around on the floor>.
in a few years time EVs will charge much more quickly, have higher capacity batteries which are solid state & thus so much lighter.
by then, their uptake will have reached the tipping point whereby they're cheaper to make than ICE vehicles so ICE vehicles will be seen as quaint and suitable only Sunday drives or museums.
I was in the M4 and nursing a cold engine(which is obviously using more fuel because it is cold so is costing more), and obviously the Teslas are making a reasonable saving in running costs versus me. So I just thought who would buy the Tesla(or an equivalent EV) if it cost exactly the same to buy and run in its totality versus my M4. So I just thought that it was an interesting scenario.
Same running costs I'd have ICE. In fact I have ICE despite the higher running costs. Even if EV ownership was 10x cheaper than ICE, I'd still have ICE. Because I do so few miles that the price is totally irrelevant. In fact I have five (soon to be six) road-going vehicles despite being the sole member of my household. I could easily get by with just one small car, but then I'd have to take up knitting or something.
But why ICE? Because the sounds that cars make are intrinsic to their appeal for me. I was hooked on the sounds of formula 1 growing up in the 1970s and 80s and I still love the sounds of racing cars and noisy road cars. Having said that, I don't like it when the drivers of modern cars who make a lot of noise when it's not needed - acceleration followed by overrun in a cycle to create fake pops and bangs. Or that weird farty noise made during gear changes by powerful turbo cars with automatic transmissions. It sounds awful. And the pillock in the Mustang GT in Reading last Sunday, who was brapping his stupidly loud exhaust while in semi-stationary traffic for the sole purpose of making noise.
But the only time I will ever own an EV is if it ever becomes a practical necessity due to lack of petrol availability or restrictions on where ICE cars can go. But I'll hang on to ICE for as long as I can, because driving and spannering on ICE cars is what makes me happy.
But why ICE? Because the sounds that cars make are intrinsic to their appeal for me. I was hooked on the sounds of formula 1 growing up in the 1970s and 80s and I still love the sounds of racing cars and noisy road cars. Having said that, I don't like it when the drivers of modern cars who make a lot of noise when it's not needed - acceleration followed by overrun in a cycle to create fake pops and bangs. Or that weird farty noise made during gear changes by powerful turbo cars with automatic transmissions. It sounds awful. And the pillock in the Mustang GT in Reading last Sunday, who was brapping his stupidly loud exhaust while in semi-stationary traffic for the sole purpose of making noise.
But the only time I will ever own an EV is if it ever becomes a practical necessity due to lack of petrol availability or restrictions on where ICE cars can go. But I'll hang on to ICE for as long as I can, because driving and spannering on ICE cars is what makes me happy.
If we're talking today - it depends on what I need the car for. If it's just transport from A to B and both are equally capable of doing the job (no range issues), I don't really care. Possibly even I'd choose the EV so that I don't need to do oil changes on it.
But if for fun, ICE every time.
But if for fun, ICE every time.
Gad-Westy said:
No one answer to this for me. Our little E-Up is the perfect car for the daily school runs. About 50 miles each day plus some other short runs throughout the week. If the cost of owning and running that were identical to an ICE, I'd pick the EV every time simply because of the convenience of never having to fill it up. Remote pre-heating and a smooth power train are nice too.
I definitely think that an EV is a good choice for that sort of usage(school runs/shopping trips/nipping around locally), and I find myself thinking more and more about them for doing that. I also appreciate all the balance with the replies too from everyone, because I didn't want this to become an us and them if you know what I mean, which can happen on some threads.
For me this is like asking if I'd go back to VHS video after I bought a bluray player. I'd go EV.
My only condition would be that I had access to home charging like I do currently. Even if the ICE was £50 a month cheaper, I'd still have the EV simply due to them being nicer to drive and far better at getting from A to B with the least hassle. I only drive our Petrol cars now when I absolutely have to.
My only condition would be that I had access to home charging like I do currently. Even if the ICE was £50 a month cheaper, I'd still have the EV simply due to them being nicer to drive and far better at getting from A to B with the least hassle. I only drive our Petrol cars now when I absolutely have to.
Glenn63 said:
ICE because I like brum brum noises. If you’re not a powerfully built PH director of many business you can put a brand new top end electric car through and have a budget of say £20-30k, there’s zero fun or interesting electric cars at that price point compared to many many ICE cars I can get excited about.
I'd say there are quite a few interesting electric cars at that price point and lower - examples including Hyundai Ioniq 5/6, Honda E, Polestar 2 and (the one I chose) BMW i3. Whether you can get excited about them is another matter, but I'd say they are definitely interesting. Anyway, it's all about horses for courses IMO - we went for a used i3 as a daily commuter/run around, basically bought it because I wanted an EV and I liked it - it's only ever been charged at home, has a range of 60-80 miles which is plenty, is nice to drive (partly because it doesn't weigh very much I think) easy to park, quick 0-50 and more environmentally friendly than the equivalent ICE assuming you do a few miles. Basically bought for a whole bunch of reasons of which cheaper running costs wasn't one.
It's not our only car though, but it's the one that is used the most by far. Whether running costs are lower than the equivalent ICE I'm not sure - we do about 3000 miles per year in it and suspect costs are similar, possibly higher when you take depreciation into account.
cerb4.5lee said:
I also appreciate all the balance with the replies too from everyone, because I didn't want this to become an us and them if you know what I mean, which can happen on some threads.
Agreed Lee - this is more like most threads on EVs should be - loads of people on here have them alongside ICE cars, so polarised debate makes little sense. As a daily/commuting car, EV without question. When I get in my ICE car now it feels completely agricultural in terms of NVH etc. Plus, I like the instant performance as its handy for squeezing in to junctions and overtaking.
For a fun weekend toy, ICE every day and I wouldn't even consider an EV.
For a fun weekend toy, ICE every day and I wouldn't even consider an EV.
I'd still choose ICE, because a lot of my journeys are long distance and having to plan in recharging stops and stay in hotels with chargers is a PITA.
When I think about my last trip to Manchester, I stayed in the cheapest nastiest Travelodge in Doncaster (£37) which had no charging. Hotels are a bed for me, and the thought of arriving at 10pm, having to find a charger doesn't sit well. I left the hotel at 6am, had a glorious drive over the peak district and into Manchester for 7:30am, parked up on the street with no charging and began to load up the car. Once we set off we stopped at a services to pick up breakfast. Vikingette2 being a student slept the whole 4.5 hrs back and I didn't need to stop for a pee. 58mpg for a loaded diesel with a roofbox on top is pretty good.
When I think about my last trip to Manchester, I stayed in the cheapest nastiest Travelodge in Doncaster (£37) which had no charging. Hotels are a bed for me, and the thought of arriving at 10pm, having to find a charger doesn't sit well. I left the hotel at 6am, had a glorious drive over the peak district and into Manchester for 7:30am, parked up on the street with no charging and began to load up the car. Once we set off we stopped at a services to pick up breakfast. Vikingette2 being a student slept the whole 4.5 hrs back and I didn't need to stop for a pee. 58mpg for a loaded diesel with a roofbox on top is pretty good.
I only recently racked up my first proper miles in an EV and I was a bit underwhelmed tbh. I was expecting to be wowed by the quietness; it was quiet but then my ICE car isn't exactly noisy anyway. I was expecting to be wowed by the performance; it was fast but then I very rarely use the (modest) full performance of my family car anyway, so after a few goes of stamping on the loud pedal I was sort of 'OK, it can do that', then just carried on driving exactly the same as before. I very rarely drive in heavy traffic or on traffic light-controlled dual carriageways where EVs are better and I don't really give a toss about 'the latest tech' so the abiding impression was that they're OK, but not obviously better than ICE.
However continuing to burn tonnes of fossil fuels when I don't really need to is a daft thing to do, and so as soon as an EV is only a bit less convenient than an ICE for my personal use case, I'll be getting one. In reality they're likely to be a fair bit cheaper to run than ICE so I'll grudgingly put up with the occasional charging stop on long journeys (which I do a fair bit).
However continuing to burn tonnes of fossil fuels when I don't really need to is a daft thing to do, and so as soon as an EV is only a bit less convenient than an ICE for my personal use case, I'll be getting one. In reality they're likely to be a fair bit cheaper to run than ICE so I'll grudgingly put up with the occasional charging stop on long journeys (which I do a fair bit).
For me the EV Vs ICE debate is like the difference between listening to music via headphones Vs attending a gig in person. They both achieved the same thing, you listened to music at the end of it. The EV is quieter, more efficient and cheaper, but you'll never get the sense of occasion and atmosphere from it like you would an ICE. For a daily, it doesn't really matter, but I want that Gig feeling every now and again
Even if costs were the same, for daily use an EV. Nicer to drive, and more convenient as I never have to visit a petrol station, the cars always full each morning. In fact I’d pay more than ICE for one. I also like that they're less polluting.
For weekend/ track use ICE as they’re better.
Did a track day in my 997 yesterday, drove to work in my EV today.
For weekend/ track use ICE as they’re better.
Did a track day in my 997 yesterday, drove to work in my EV today.
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Wednesday 3rd July 12:28
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Wednesday 3rd July 12:29
LunarOne said:
Same running costs I'd have ICE. In fact I have ICE despite the higher running costs. Even if EV ownership was 10x cheaper than ICE, I'd still have ICE. Because I do so few miles that the price is totally irrelevant. In fact I have five (soon to be six) road-going vehicles despite being the sole member of my household. I could easily get by with just one small car, but then I'd have to take up knitting or something.
But why ICE? Because the sounds that cars make are intrinsic to their appeal for me. I was hooked on the sounds of formula 1 growing up in the 1970s and 80s and I still love the sounds of racing cars and noisy road cars. Having said that, I don't like it when the drivers of modern cars who make a lot of noise when it's not needed - acceleration followed by overrun in a cycle to create fake pops and bangs. Or that weird farty noise made during gear changes by powerful turbo cars with automatic transmissions. It sounds awful. And the pillock in the Mustang GT in Reading last Sunday, who was brapping his stupidly loud exhaust while in semi-stationary traffic for the sole purpose of making noise.
But the only time I will ever own an EV is if it ever becomes a practical necessity due to lack of petrol availability or restrictions on where ICE cars can go. But I'll hang on to ICE for as long as I can, because driving and spannering on ICE cars is what makes me happy.
Well put. Much the same here.But why ICE? Because the sounds that cars make are intrinsic to their appeal for me. I was hooked on the sounds of formula 1 growing up in the 1970s and 80s and I still love the sounds of racing cars and noisy road cars. Having said that, I don't like it when the drivers of modern cars who make a lot of noise when it's not needed - acceleration followed by overrun in a cycle to create fake pops and bangs. Or that weird farty noise made during gear changes by powerful turbo cars with automatic transmissions. It sounds awful. And the pillock in the Mustang GT in Reading last Sunday, who was brapping his stupidly loud exhaust while in semi-stationary traffic for the sole purpose of making noise.
But the only time I will ever own an EV is if it ever becomes a practical necessity due to lack of petrol availability or restrictions on where ICE cars can go. But I'll hang on to ICE for as long as I can, because driving and spannering on ICE cars is what makes me happy.
At the moment, EV works out more expensive, so not even a decision, but i guess the time will come.
As cars are a hobby too, im really not looking forward to a world where i have no ICE vehicles.
I had a moment recently where I was walking down a busy road and a couple of EVs whistled quietly past me, followed by loud, clattery diesel van coughing up puffs of black smoke. That massive contrast did make me realise that to the next generation, ICE is going to feel like yesterday's technology.
Vinyl is a good analogy. A whole generation rejected it and not because of something objectively better, but because it was how your Dad listened to music. It's quality more than holds up against today's streaming platforms and the generation that followed saw those merits and brought it back in a limited way, but it's never going to be the solution for the mainstream again.
I can see all that playing out with ICE cars.
Vinyl is a good analogy. A whole generation rejected it and not because of something objectively better, but because it was how your Dad listened to music. It's quality more than holds up against today's streaming platforms and the generation that followed saw those merits and brought it back in a limited way, but it's never going to be the solution for the mainstream again.
I can see all that playing out with ICE cars.
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