What is a good car brand these days?
Discussion
I’ll get flamed for this but if you’re after a low cost, cheap to run, nice to steer, reliable transportation box, then Tesla is a good shout.
I’ve been bowled over by my wife’s model 3. When I did have an issue setting up the driver profile on the first day, their helpdesk was on another level compared to the legacy manufacturers, who would have required a dealer visit etc.. this was all done remotely is a few minutes.
I’ve been bowled over by my wife’s model 3. When I did have an issue setting up the driver profile on the first day, their helpdesk was on another level compared to the legacy manufacturers, who would have required a dealer visit etc.. this was all done remotely is a few minutes.
Edited by JAMSXR on Friday 21st June 07:30
Paracetamol said:
If I am reading correctly you are saying that failed leather on a 7 year car is an unacceptable quality lapse..is that correct? What do you mean by failed leather and how many miles has the car covered ?
I can only describe the leather as having melted in a few places but in an obvious way. Not worn or faded. Never seen this on any car before. I think car was parked in the sun, leather softened, we've got in it and the surface has sloughed off. Or dealership has damaged it when valeting. We dont know and it is unusual. Fundamentaly, it's failed or damaged rather than worn. Lexus say they have not seen that before, yet it is OK. Dealership took 14 weeks to report it to Lexus HQ after they took photos. Whatever they way you look at it, poor service and dismissive response.Edited by Paracetamol on Friday 21st June 05:19
On the subject of warranty...as I said, it took 7 years to sort out suspension creak..going through two dealers. First they said there is no problem at all. Then they could detect a problem and greased the bushes which worked, but problem returned. In the end, I researched Tevhnical Service Bulletins from Toyota and gave that to the dealer. That was done and fixed. If I had not pushed it would still be creaking away.
The service charges are inflated in order to maintain the 10 year warranty, but you have to fight to get anything done. I'm thinking of trousering the difference and do the work myself or at an indy.
I'm therefore interested to explore everyone's experiences of other brands - for better, for worse.
Paracetamol said:
If I am reading correctly you are saying that failed leather on a 7 year car is an unacceptable quality lapse..is that correct? What do you mean by failed leather and how many miles has the car covered ?
Failed leather can happen. It’s very hard to spot the warning signs. Usually what happens is you just go to get in your car one day, open the door, and your whole interior has just become polyester, poverty spec. Very depressing. Edited by Paracetamol on Friday 21st June 05:19
Arrivalist said:
I've had an XC40 for the last 4 years and, apart from one blip with the infotainment system which was sorted by the dealer in minutes, it hasn't missed a beat.
As said above though, it's the dealers that make the difference; mine is still a family run business and they are always superb at customer service.
Yup. Another poster mentioned an "excellent independent mechanic" too. You can have quite a good experience even with something as inherently flaky as a TVR if you know you've got someone on hand who can fix the thing quickly and at a fair price if things go wrong, and have a good chance of spotting things before they go wrong while servicing the car. As said above though, it's the dealers that make the difference; mine is still a family run business and they are always superb at customer service.
Reverse applies too. My first car was a Toyota. Bulletproof, comfortable, quick enough. Couldn't find anyone to look after the bloody thing. Only option locally was a dealership that saw servicing as pre-sales. "Nice car, it's f
ked, why not buy a new one?" when it needed an oil change. I had no confidence at all they'd repair it if anything serious went wrong.TUS373 said:
I have been a very loyal customer of a LEXUriouS car brand over the last 20+ years. Had 5 in total with 2 still in my possession. They used to be great cars and one is nigh on 200,000 miles from new and not missed a beat. However, I have had a few issues with the latest car including creaking suspension from when the car was new. Despite raising it with two dealers, it took my persistence and patience to sort it out. After 7 years, it was finally fixed.
Now, the leather has started to fail in some unusual places despite light use , very low miles, and good care. The Customer Relations department say that it is 'normal' and 'within specification'. I beg to differ. Upshot is...I'm ready to ditch the brand as it seems they have given up on their 'Pursuit Of Perfection' and put their fingers in their ears. Next service is due and they want £660 for oil, filter, pollen filter, air filter, brake fluid and coolant. The rest is 'checking that the floor mats are secured' and things like that. Not rocket science and feels like a lot of padding. I can do the service myself with genuine parts for less than £200. So, shock horror, they are on the verge of losing a loyal customer despite praise from JD Powers over the years.
So, having been a loyal customer, I've not really been looking at other marques of late. Plenty of lovely cars available but I am wondering - has quality kept pace with price? I am old fashioned and tend to buy a car rather than lease and change every 3 years. May be that is wrong, but mileage is not so much as it was years ago - say 10,000 miles a year.
Where do we go from here? What brands do Pistonheaders absolutely swear by, rather than swear at? By that I mean - the whole ownership experience. To me that means:
1. Quality that runs through the car - not that it just looks pretty (that discounts anything Land Rover/Range Rover - unless I can be persuaded otherwise).
2. Reliability - few foibles
3. Longevity / durability
4. Depreciation
5. Good dealers
6. Cost and ease of servicing
Its a big question - is there a a sweet spot for ownership out there that is not EV, and not more than say £65K?
To be honest, I think you'll struggle. For years the actual quality of goods has been being quietly but steadily removed and replaced with thinner and thinner veneers while the prices get pushed further higher and marketing invests more and more in protecting the illusion. Now, the leather has started to fail in some unusual places despite light use , very low miles, and good care. The Customer Relations department say that it is 'normal' and 'within specification'. I beg to differ. Upshot is...I'm ready to ditch the brand as it seems they have given up on their 'Pursuit Of Perfection' and put their fingers in their ears. Next service is due and they want £660 for oil, filter, pollen filter, air filter, brake fluid and coolant. The rest is 'checking that the floor mats are secured' and things like that. Not rocket science and feels like a lot of padding. I can do the service myself with genuine parts for less than £200. So, shock horror, they are on the verge of losing a loyal customer despite praise from JD Powers over the years.
So, having been a loyal customer, I've not really been looking at other marques of late. Plenty of lovely cars available but I am wondering - has quality kept pace with price? I am old fashioned and tend to buy a car rather than lease and change every 3 years. May be that is wrong, but mileage is not so much as it was years ago - say 10,000 miles a year.
Where do we go from here? What brands do Pistonheaders absolutely swear by, rather than swear at? By that I mean - the whole ownership experience. To me that means:
1. Quality that runs through the car - not that it just looks pretty (that discounts anything Land Rover/Range Rover - unless I can be persuaded otherwise).
2. Reliability - few foibles
3. Longevity / durability
4. Depreciation
5. Good dealers
6. Cost and ease of servicing
Its a big question - is there a a sweet spot for ownership out there that is not EV, and not more than say £65K?
Nothing is really built to the quality that their PR and marketing claim and nothing premium is built to the quality that it once was when it claimed its 'premium' status.
There are of course exceptions but the point is that the word 'premium' means nothing today. It's a worthless term like 'executive' or 'luxury'. And it's never been more important to ignore what the journos are paid to say, what marketing departments just make up or even what consumers say as modern consumers will never tell the truth about a product they acquired to make them a better person etc. You've got to go and feel the schmutter yourself.
Having had Lexus cars for years you'll probably have an image feel for what us screwed and glued better, what sheens will run off the day after the second finance deal ends etc.
Personally, I think today that the majority of 'premium' cars, in terms of quality not image, are found down at the cheaper prices. Most 'premium' branded cars are just these products with some shiny bits glued on. Some do it well while others are overt piss takers but nearly all have been quietly removing the real premium.
The one 'premium' car that I personally think has actually been made better than the model it's based off and where there is a genuine feel of quality at a fair price is actually the Porsche Cayenne. As much as I love my Range Rovers you can only live with the facade of quality for so long. They've made themselves a brand to only ever lease and preferably with someone else's money. A Cayenne actually has the feel of something that you'd want to own and just keep and use. Even Volvo seems to have been stripping out their quality and replacing with veneer. For years they were a very nice, under the radar brand a bit like Lexus.
Frankly, you probably won't go wrong with a mid level Toyota. A friend got lumbered with a RAV4 as a company car a while back but to be honest, it has a really nicely made interior and feels built to last.
I'd say Lexus or Porsche for you as (generally) reliable, with a reputably good dealer network. However, good dealer network means dealer network prices, so if you're worried about £600 for a service (I don't know about Lexus but at least the Porsche intervals mean that it's every 2 years), you're not going to get far.
If you're more cost conscious now, then I'd recommend going down market towards Toyota. The product is very good, very reliable, servicing is cheap (often cheaper than indies), 10 year warranty when serviced, plus the dealers are OK. Note that OK does not mean they'll in any way entertain a complaint from you about 7 year old leather wear, but generally are helpful and sort stuff out.
You also need to decide what is more important, good engineering or good reliability. Often the two don't go hand in hand (Phaeton has great engineering, a Corolla has good reliability). Lexus probably of all brands is the one that lies most in the overlap on that venn diagram though...
All IME.
If you're more cost conscious now, then I'd recommend going down market towards Toyota. The product is very good, very reliable, servicing is cheap (often cheaper than indies), 10 year warranty when serviced, plus the dealers are OK. Note that OK does not mean they'll in any way entertain a complaint from you about 7 year old leather wear, but generally are helpful and sort stuff out.
You also need to decide what is more important, good engineering or good reliability. Often the two don't go hand in hand (Phaeton has great engineering, a Corolla has good reliability). Lexus probably of all brands is the one that lies most in the overlap on that venn diagram though...
All IME.
This stuff is all in the eye of your own experience, I've had 13 BMWs over the last 23 years and driven close to 700k miles in them and only had 2 issues where one failed to proceed due to a software issue, I've had one for 17 years it's never put a foot wrong and still drives on the button, certainly no failed leather etc...yet some would deride BMW quality.
The only caveat being they have all been new so I'm not buying someone else's problem, most cars from the last 20 years are reliable and hardwearing if you look after them and don't abuse but of course sometimes you get a lemon.
I love BMW cars but my recent dealership service experience (Who I am not allowed to name and shame but they are a big chain) has almost put me off the brand for life, took my M4 in for warranty work and they were absolutely atrocious, my car was in for 8 days and I couldn'r contact the dealers service department at all in that time, I had to go in person twice just to get an update.
Whilst I love my car I will definitely be looking for another dealer chain in future, and likely go independent as soon as warranty expires
Whilst I love my car I will definitely be looking for another dealer chain in future, and likely go independent as soon as warranty expires
Jamescrs said:
I love BMW cars but my recent dealership service experience (Who I am not allowed to name and shame but they are a big chain) has almost put me off the brand for life, took my M4 in for warranty work and they were absolutely atrocious, my car was in for 8 days and I couldn'r contact the dealers service department at all in that time, I had to go in person twice just to get an update.
Whilst I love my car I will definitely be looking for another dealer chain in future, and likely go independent as soon as warranty expires
I had an issue with JCT BMW, so moved the Lloyd Colne and they are superb, JCT eventually lost the sales side of the brand and I'm not surprised. Whilst I love my car I will definitely be looking for another dealer chain in future, and likely go independent as soon as warranty expires
I’ll get flamed for this but if you’re after a low cost, cheap to run, nice to steer, reliable transportation box, then Tesla is a good shout.
I’ve been bowled over by my wife’s model 3. When I did have an issue setting up the driver profile on the first day, there helpdesk was on another level compared to the legacy manufacturers, who would have required a dealer visit etc.. this was all done remotely is a few minutes.
I’ve been bowled over by my wife’s model 3. When I did have an issue setting up the driver profile on the first day, there helpdesk was on another level compared to the legacy manufacturers, who would have required a dealer visit etc.. this was all done remotely is a few minutes.
I’d have thought a 7 year old Lexus would be right up there in terms of quality but it’s also the dealers that keep the impression of quality going. Remember you’ve still got three years warranty left too.
The more complex a car the more likely it’ll break so something more basic like a Toyota/Kia/Hyundai might have a lower failure rate. Porsche also sound like they’re good from other posts but that won’t be a cheap experience.
I’d keep what you have and fix the seats. You can steal a Lexus in seconds with a canbus device so there should be plenty of spares on eBay.
The more complex a car the more likely it’ll break so something more basic like a Toyota/Kia/Hyundai might have a lower failure rate. Porsche also sound like they’re good from other posts but that won’t be a cheap experience.
I’d keep what you have and fix the seats. You can steal a Lexus in seconds with a canbus device so there should be plenty of spares on eBay.
The OP doesn’t mention the price range of the brands. However, imho, there has been a shift over the last decade or so. Leaving exotics out of it, there were popular cars , then, at a slightly higher end, posh ones: BMW, Mercedes and Audi. Lexus, too in the less sporty bracket. Things have now changed to a point where some of the most reliable ( and accessible) brands are Korean - take a bow Kia and Hyundai. Who’d ‘a thought it?
samoht said:
While I completely understand that Lexus aren't perfect, I honestly doubt you'll find another brand that's actually on average better quality. To be quite honest, a creaking noise over bumps and some unevenly faded leather aren't the worst things that can go wrong with a car (although I agree if you've bought an expensive car brand new you expect it to be perfect).
I certainly wouldn't expect a Hyundai or Skoda to have fewer issues on average, although of course one individual car from those brands might have fewer faults than another individual Lexus.
I think the bigger issue than the cars are the dealers. A dealer who books you in straight away at a convenient time, fixes the car first time and hands it back spotless with a smile goes a long way to ameliorate the inconvenience of a problem. Conversely if you're fighting a years long battle to get your car fixed, a small fault can become infuriating.
Agree on the dealers. I certainly wouldn't expect a Hyundai or Skoda to have fewer issues on average, although of course one individual car from those brands might have fewer faults than another individual Lexus.
I think the bigger issue than the cars are the dealers. A dealer who books you in straight away at a convenient time, fixes the car first time and hands it back spotless with a smile goes a long way to ameliorate the inconvenience of a problem. Conversely if you're fighting a years long battle to get your car fixed, a small fault can become infuriating.
I had a Hyundai i30N for a couple of years, after a load of German stuff (last one being an M140i) and the whole ownership/dealership experience was very different.
After the expensive decor, plush furnishings and mood lighting of a BMW dealership, walking into a Hyundai dealership (I used 2 different ones in my time with the car) was a bit of a shock. They are quite spartan and plain, a little dingy even, and with fewer cars and more fresh air.
But a major service cost £240 (vs BMW's £650), there was no upsell at all, and I received a video link via email with a full undercar inspection by the tech, showing tyres, brake material, springs, shocks, brake hoses. A nice touch was that the sump plug was clearly out and the oil filter off as this was done, to show they'd actually done the work. They found a bulge in the inner sidewall of a rear tyre, and the service receptionist said while they'd be happy to supply and fit a tyre, there would be a 24 hour wait, and they probably wouldn't be hugely competitive price-wise. No pressure at all.
They were happy to give me the password to the (very decent) Wi-Fi to work, and help myself to tea and coffee while I waited.
Bill matched, to the penny, the online quote with no extras for diagnostic plug-in (yes, you BMW) or "sundries"
Car was returned valeted and when I checked the oil level (had a few bad experiences that prompt me to do this), they'd got it spot on.
No frills (except the coffee and biscuits) but just the agreed work done to a good standard for a reasonable price. I'll take that over a nicer ambience every time.
Also, the car itself, in the time I had it, was also completely and utterly faultless and there was nothing to indicate that it wouldn't continue to be for a long time.
Thanks all.
Shame that yet another thread of mine has been moved. The subject is more general than simply car buying.
Re the leather failure on my car - I want to explain. It sounds curmudgeonly of me perhaps to raise a complaint about leather on a 65,000 mile car, but my other - 15 year old car has done 178,000 and seats are pretty much perfect still. The failure on the newer car is not simple wear and tear - it seems to have just 'let go'. It is clearly not right, but Lexus don't want to know. They are not even interested in investigating it a bit further to understand what has gone wrong, with a view to feeding it back up chain in the company. It looks a mess.
I balk at a £660 service. Reason is - I checked exactly what they do on a B service compared to A service. The only discernible difference is change of brake fluid and coolant, yet it is hundreds of pounds more. At 7 years, I don't want a tick on a sheet to say 'Does horn work - Yes', 'Does alarm work - Yes', 'Wipers work - Yes'. I can tell they do - I have been driving it 12 months since the last service and would have noticed by now. I don't need to pay them to tell me what I already know at £140/hour. Paying that would keep the warranty, but the time it has taken me to chase getting warranty work done is such that it would have been more economical to keep £400 and then pay the additional for a fix. There is little willingness it seems for the manufacturer to honour the warranty when needed.
It does seem a case that cars have increased massively in price, massivley in technical complexity - but that life blood of 'quality' is not commensurate in the product, or often the dealers.
Shame that yet another thread of mine has been moved. The subject is more general than simply car buying.
Re the leather failure on my car - I want to explain. It sounds curmudgeonly of me perhaps to raise a complaint about leather on a 65,000 mile car, but my other - 15 year old car has done 178,000 and seats are pretty much perfect still. The failure on the newer car is not simple wear and tear - it seems to have just 'let go'. It is clearly not right, but Lexus don't want to know. They are not even interested in investigating it a bit further to understand what has gone wrong, with a view to feeding it back up chain in the company. It looks a mess.
I balk at a £660 service. Reason is - I checked exactly what they do on a B service compared to A service. The only discernible difference is change of brake fluid and coolant, yet it is hundreds of pounds more. At 7 years, I don't want a tick on a sheet to say 'Does horn work - Yes', 'Does alarm work - Yes', 'Wipers work - Yes'. I can tell they do - I have been driving it 12 months since the last service and would have noticed by now. I don't need to pay them to tell me what I already know at £140/hour. Paying that would keep the warranty, but the time it has taken me to chase getting warranty work done is such that it would have been more economical to keep £400 and then pay the additional for a fix. There is little willingness it seems for the manufacturer to honour the warranty when needed.
It does seem a case that cars have increased massively in price, massivley in technical complexity - but that life blood of 'quality' is not commensurate in the product, or often the dealers.
Filibuster said:
Volvo
Based on my experience with a from-new XC60 over the last 2 years, Volvo will offer nothing different.Main dealer servicing is no cheaper than offered by Lexus. My leather seats at 35k miles are starting to look a little too worn and baggy for my liking given the age and mileage, so again no better than Lexus. I've also had niggly wee gremlins with infotainment, oil level sensor, coolant level sensor - so not 100% unburstable.
Nothing terrible, and pretty much as good as I'd expect tbh, but not perfection.
I think if Lexus can't offer what you want OP, you might not have any better luck elsewhere.
TUS373 said:
Thanks all.
I don't need to pay them to tell me what I already know at £140/hour. Paying that would keep the warranty, but the time it has taken me to chase getting warranty work done is such that it would have been more economical to keep £400 and then pay the additional for a fix.
I sort of get where you are coming from with this, they offer an extended warranty off of a service and yes the suggestion their marketing material make often does not tally with reality (not restricted to a specific brand) so I find this very irritating.I don't need to pay them to tell me what I already know at £140/hour. Paying that would keep the warranty, but the time it has taken me to chase getting warranty work done is such that it would have been more economical to keep £400 and then pay the additional for a fix.
I have a dim view of nearly all warranties.
But on the subject of quality and importantly longevity, it seems to me that cars are very reliable and maintain their build integrity for a period of time and then they fall off a cliff. I guess it is engineering to a specification which would include lifecycle of the components or whole and everyone has just got better at that to make the economics work. For me I look at what the manufacture will stand behind as standard and use that to assess reliability, this and the addition of my own perception to assess quality and roll the dice.
Truth is I don't think you can be brand specific and a lot comes to; somewhat base price, model and where it was built Land Rovers anecdotally being the prime example of more expensive doesn't always mean better.
Sadly I think I have just accepted that anything over 3 years old I may have some items to replace from wear, outside of consumables, irrespective of miles, 5 years there may be a big bill, roll the dice and 7 years expect to regularly pay some money outside of servicing to keep it going to a suitable standard. Maybe it is man maths justification but it is why the car I need for work gets swapped out every 3 years.
Lastly I find "service" from franchised dealers troublesome and doesn't represent value (to be clear, not the vehicle service, what ever they do doesn't matter just give me a price for them to look at it and stand behind warranty no questions asked), I don't need a service advisor to manage me, take the cost of that out. I actually think a transparent open online booking system with penalties for unused bookings would represent a massive leap in perceived "service" and transparency. I think any car above 3 and certainly 5 years old (unless Korean ,generalising, or cars with longer manufacture warranties) should just be going to a specialist or general mechanic.
Bit of a rant to make me feel better.
I'm only just about a year in to my new Nissan X-trail that was built in Japan and represents one of the brands more premium products and have to say the quality seems to be very good.
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