EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
Raihan said:
I would assume he's talking about motorway miles as that's the anxiety for the electric cars. Also I would think 600 is a rough figure. But could certainly be possible. Idk if u watched it before but Jeremy Clarkson managed to do 800 miles on 1 tank in an Audi A8 ages ago, (London to Edinburgh and back). My 2004 Nissan Almera PETROL can probably do a close 400 motorway miles with the AC turned on for a while, albeit it has a 60 litre tank. A 1.2 PETROL 2021 Vauxhall Corsa can do around 350 miles with only a 40 litre tank if I'm not mistaken. Ofc we are talking about motorway miles, as if it's just daily commute I don't think anyone has a problem with ev range in that sense
Honestly Raihan I watched that and thought how. I think I’ve had four Audi A8 diesels and I never got anywhere near 600 miles from a tank. Maybe you could spec a larger tank ? To add to my last and to some other comments about range.
I don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
Castrol for a knave said:
To add to my last and to some other comments about range.
I don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
Off topic, but I was there the other week and had a nice steak and ale pie, it was about £7 though… only stopped for piss. I don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
Castrol for a knave said:
To add to my last and to some other comments about range.
I don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
Agree totally. EV’s aren’t suitable for everyone but if you are sensible and don’t have to do regular commutes like that they are a dream to use. ImoI don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
Chipper said:
Honestly Raihan I watched that and thought how. I think I’ve had four Audi A8 diesels and I never got anywhere near 600 miles from a tank. Maybe you could spec a larger tank ?
He was wiped out, he drove that thing so carefully. I think he quipped "I've not exceeded 1,200 RPM; the engine must be wondering 'what has bought the car? it must be the manager of a mattress company!'". So, I don't exactly think that's representative!blueacid said:
Chipper said:
Honestly Raihan I watched that and thought how. I think I’ve had four Audi A8 diesels and I never got anywhere near 600 miles from a tank. Maybe you could spec a larger tank ?
He was wiped out, he drove that thing so carefully. I think he quipped "I've not exceeded 1,200 RPM; the engine must be wondering 'what has bought the car? it must be the manager of a mattress company!'". So, I don't exactly think that's representative!Raihan said:
My understanding is this. A Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 is (was) £150 per month to lease. A 40 litre tank at £1.50 costs £60. The same car but electric costs more than £60 extra to lease per month. So before you even add the cost of electricity, (because yes electricity isn't free) you’re paying more. On top of that if you manage to do 300 miles with a petrol Vs 150 with an electric, you’re having to charge twice essentially. I haven't done the maths but I can clearly see the ev of a Corsa isn't "cheaper". Also bills have gone up so take that into consideration.
I just took a look on Zen and a Corsa (1.2 auto) is over £300/month on 36 months, 2K upfront, 5K miles. The EV version even more so, but I’d wager a much nicer thing to drive.Archie2050 said:
Now how about taking a diesel A8 and running it through London in stop start crawling traffic for a week and see what fuel economy you get? That would be the worst case for an ICE vehicle. And representative of a lot of people’s normal use.
I had the latest version A8 3.0tdi just before the Tesla. Brilliant used vehicles but I never got anything better than 450 miles from a tank and I was filling up normally between 425 and 440 with the red light on. page3 said:
I just took a look on Zen and a Corsa (1.2 auto) is over £300/month on 36 months, 2K upfront, 5K miles. The EV version even more so, but I’d wager a much nicer thing to drive.
I guess the big difference is who is buying. As a business purchase and/or user the electric version drags most or all of the difference back in tax. As a private buyer it's a different calculation.Raihan said:
My understanding is this. A Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 is (was) £150 per month to lease. A 40 litre tank at £1.50 costs £60. The same car but electric costs more than £60 extra to lease per month. So before you even add the cost of electricity, (because yes electricity isn't free) your paying more. On top of that if you manage to do 300 miles with a petrol Vs 150 with an electric, your having to charge twice essentially. I haven't done the maths but I can clearly see the ev of a Corsa isn't "cheaper". Also bills have gone up so take that into consideration.
Why not do the maths? It's fun.Flumpo said:
Castrol for a knave said:
To add to my last and to some other comments about range.
I don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
Off topic, but I was there the other week and had a nice steak and ale pie, it was about £7 though… only stopped for piss. I don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
TX.
Chipper said:
soupdragon1 said:
You're hard work. Your posts are like one of those tiktok videos where the scene changes multiple times per second.
Let's try and stay on one topic at a time, shall we?
The profit margins of VW aren't rocket science. Good. That should make it easy for you then. Let's hear your summary about VW EV profit margins.
Im not really bothered about VW profit margins or Ford or Teslas but I do believe what Sandy Munro says about the profit margin in the vehicle compared to the other manufacturers and hence why the ev used market has taken a hell of a kicking by Tesla’s aggressive price reduction. Im not sure if you know who he is and his history but I would have a guess that he knows more than you. Please explain why you don’t believe what he says or at least explain why you believe as you state VW EV’s are on par or maybe better in production costs than Tesla ? Honestly I would be interested.Let's try and stay on one topic at a time, shall we?
The profit margins of VW aren't rocket science. Good. That should make it easy for you then. Let's hear your summary about VW EV profit margins.
I’ll hold my hands up. I do believe what Sandy says and that’s because of his experience and knowledge ( you do know who he is right ? ) and the fact I’ve watched how he disassembles vehicles and looks at the engineering costs of manufacturing them. I haven’t heard of any other journalist, engineer or manufacturer argue against his case. Oh apart from you. I also look at the feel and set up of a Tesla and comically it is actually basically an iPad with wheels and a battery.
Secondly I do understand running costs of running a business, though clearly on a much smaller scale and in my own field but I am experienced in running multiple high street outlets which I have built from the ground up and I know how hard it is to survive. I understand the savings of not having huge overheads which is clearly an outdated model of a dealership and clearly not needed now. Dealerships as we see them will simply not be able to compete and IMO are not needed today. That is already proven as BMW and Mercedes are following Tesla in how they retail new vehicles.
Tesla has the charging network and every other manufacturer would dream of that selling point, but I just can’t see how ( or at least that’s what I think you are thinking ) you believe VW aren’t even worried about Tesla. If I owned VW I would be @@@@@@@@ bricks having a competitor so far ahead and with a properly built in infrastructure to actually fuel the damn things.
Simply put Tesla’s had got too expensive. People were getting nervous with energy costs and he wasn’t meeting expectations of shifting stock. He was ruthless by letting people buy the day before dropping the prices but he has the financial power to do that because his profit margins are substantially better than everybody else. The market has reacted. Everything used in the EV world dropped by around £5000 over night as the new benchmark is on Tesla Model 3 pricing. Dealers understandably don’t want to touch EV’s as they know every other manufacturer will soon have to drop their prices ( including VW ) and just like Ford has had to do to compete with Tesla. Obviously somewhere is this I’ve upset you about VW but I’m thinking you might be a member of a VW club ?
So to sum it up . Why the heck would you buy a £39500 basic spec id3 over a £42990 fully loaded Model 3 which you can actually drive from London to Edinburgh without having a panic attack?
You mention Sandy Munroe and driving from London to Edinburgh in the same post, and lets be honest, does Sandy even know where Edinburgh is?
Again, you are throwing in multiple talking points in a haphazard way that makes it difficult to have a reasonable discussion.
But lets go back to the start of your post. Sandy Munroe. He breaks down cars and talks about manufacturing and I'm not going to have a debate about his expertise and that field and will gladly hand him (and you) the win on that talking point.
To continue on after that concession. Where are you ranking Sandy, with his highly regarded lifelong vocation to engineering, on understanding balance sheets, outside of headline numbers? In short, I'm not prepared to give him the win on this point. Are you?
There are so many areas where these headline margins are meaningless in a like for like comparison, and when you are comparing business performance both of competitors, and YOY performance within your own business, like for like is crucial for getting just the 'basic analysis' for comparison. We don't have that.
For example, its well known that Tesla carry out warranty repairs as goodwill repairs, which effectively mean, its registered on the balance sheet as an operating expense, rather than a liability.
Let me make this easy to digest. Say for every £50k car sold, there is £5k worth of repairs/recalls that Tesla foot the bill for. If you track that as warranty repair, then PWC will be looking at the balance sheet and making sure £5k sits in liabilities as its effectively a cost that will be incurred in the future. If you track £2k as warranty, and £3k as good will, you've just moved £3k (or 6% of revenue) from liability and straight out of the balance sheet, only to show up some time later as an operating expense.
So straightaway, you've got a lovely accounting trick that increases your margin. You can see over the years how this moves on Teslas balance sheet and when you reconcile it with the fact that Tesla push out cars with multiple defects and fix them afterwards, we can see that warranty provision is inadequate.
In short, they inflate their margin and store the bad news for later, rather than have a proper liability provision.
As a side note to this story, the whole cash flow element is a farce as well, due to how Tesla push cars quarterly and are desperate not to hold much stock at any moment, hence the kneejerk free S/C miles, discount from inventory, price cuts etc etc. Its all rosy when the growth is there, when effectively, revenue hits the balance sheet (customer payments for cars) before suppliers are paid for their parts supplied to build said cars.
Delayed supplier payments are fine, and perfectly normal, but they can make a growth company look stronger financially than it really is, and when the growth in Tesla stops (which it will) then the lack of warranty provision and the fact that customer revenue is booked before suppliers are paid (amongst other things), you've got an incredible cash flow headwind just waiting to slap you in the face. And thats what is waiting for Tesla. And thats when true margin discovery will finally start to play out.
Did you know that Tesla have just secured a $7b dollar credit line with Deutsche bank? Who would need to organise that when you've got $20b in free cash flow?
I'll have to revisit some of the other stuff, this post is long enough already....
Raihan said:
My understanding is this. A Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 is (was) £150 per month to lease. A 40 litre tank at £1.50 costs £60. The same car but electric costs more than £60 extra to lease per month. So before you even add the cost of electricity, (because yes electricity isn't free) your paying more. On top of that if you manage to do 300 miles with a petrol Vs 150 with an electric, your having to charge twice essentially. I haven't done the maths but I can clearly see the ev of a Corsa isn't "cheaper". Also bills have gone up so take that into consideration.
To quantify the missing parts:8K miles p.a.
Petrol ~ £1000
Electricity (home only) ~ £200
+ savings on servicing/tyres/brakes
soxboy said:
Just had a look on AT at a Mini Electric, you can get a 2021 one from a dealer for £20k. Quite tempted at that price.
For just over £40k you could get the Mini and that FF Range Rover 5.0 supercharged that was featured on PH the other day.
Except for the Mini E only cost less than £25k new in 202.For just over £40k you could get the Mini and that FF Range Rover 5.0 supercharged that was featured on PH the other day.
Edited by soxboy on Wednesday 1st February 16:57
£20k is not a bad price but hardly huge depreciation from new, taking into account the £4k VAT element when new.
Terminator X said:
Flumpo said:
Castrol for a knave said:
To add to my last and to some other comments about range.
I don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
Off topic, but I was there the other week and had a nice steak and ale pie, it was about £7 though… only stopped for piss. I don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
TX.
Petrol - 5 mis to fill max and if I want to stop for some food I have that option. I dont want to be forced to waste time at somewhere I dont want to be.
superlightr said:
Terminator X said:
Flumpo said:
Castrol for a knave said:
To add to my last and to some other comments about range.
I don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
Off topic, but I was there the other week and had a nice steak and ale pie, it was about £7 though… only stopped for piss. I don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
TX.
Petrol - 5 mis to fill max and if I want to stop for some food I have that option. I don't want to be forced to waste time at somewhere I dont want to be.
tty petrol stations since I got my EV. It’s full each morning, warm and ready to go.Castrol for a knave said:
To add to my last and to some other comments about range.
I don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
I'm not sure why some (not specifically you) expect an EV to work for everyoneI don't know if I was an outlier, but a 500 mil day was/is pretty common. I have one tomorrow from darkest Shropsostershire to darkest Cornwall and back.
In the M3LR, that would mean getting a full charge into it, then another charge around Gordano, running our to Cornwall and hoping to make it back to Gordano for a top up to get home. I could use destination chargers, but it is a shag having to leave the motorway to find a a charging station round the back of a hotel or whatever.
Overall, that probably add 1 hour to 1 hour 20 to my overall journey time.
Whereas I get into the Alfa tomorrow and head off, stopping off at Gloucester services for a fair trade lesbian woke pastie and a can of Fentimans.
do that twice or more a week, and the EV experience starts to drag.....
Clearly if you're regularly doing 500 mile trips, the infrastructure doesn't work.
If you don't have a drive or off-street parking, charging will be an issue.
I do 20k miles a year for work. Clearly a petrol hot hatch won't work for me. So y'know what? I don't buy a petrol hot hatch.
However, if you're like a lot of people who are doing 12k miles a year and have reasonable access to home or work charging, there's no reason why an EV wouldn't work.
Yes it's expensive but I'm afraid the bad news is that all cars are now.
Raihan said:
My understanding is this. A Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 is (was) £150 per month to lease. A 40 litre tank at £1.50 costs £60. The same car but electric costs more than £60 extra to lease per month. So before you even add the cost of electricity, (because yes electricity isn't free) your paying more. On top of that if you manage to do 300 miles with a petrol Vs 150 with an electric, your having to charge twice essentially. I haven't done the maths but I can clearly see the ev of a Corsa isn't "cheaper". Also bills have gone up so take that into consideration.
We've got a rep who calls in at work whose employer has pushed a few of them into Corsa Electric. No idea what type of charging they are using but some of them are claiming to be out of pocket running the Electric over ICE. Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff