EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
Sheepshanks said:
DonkeyApple said:
The issue is that any financial bonus aimed at the consumer gets absorbed by the manufacturer via elevated RRPs so all you're doing is giving money to manufacturers and forcing consumers to pay more.
You've only got to look at Salary Sacrifice pricing to see that in action - the gross pricing is generally bonkers. I wouldn't be surprised to see that either knocked on the head or changed to basic rate - unless lots of NHS staff have taken them up,braddo said:
Sheepshanks said:
DonkeyApple said:
The issue is that any financial bonus aimed at the consumer gets absorbed by the manufacturer via elevated RRPs so all you're doing is giving money to manufacturers and forcing consumers to pay more.
You've only got to look at Salary Sacrifice pricing to see that in action - the gross pricing is generally bonkers. I wouldn't be surprised to see that either knocked on the head or changed to basic rate - unless lots of NHS staff have taken them up,Now, I know the market has changed a fair bit since then, but something doesn't add up.
It's both the SS suppliers creaming profits off the top, and EVs not having the residuals they used to.
Remember back at the time when SS was taking off you could run a £50k EV for a couple of years and sell it for not far off what you paid for it, because supply and demand was so out of kilter.
Now EVs are depreciating like ICE cars but with higher list prices to begin with, so unless there are discounted lease deals they don't stack up.
I have my i4 through SS but it was on a good "in stock" deal at the time. No way would I have taken one at the standard monthlies. Then again, that goes for pretty much any lease IMO, they are only good value when they're good value.
Remember back at the time when SS was taking off you could run a £50k EV for a couple of years and sell it for not far off what you paid for it, because supply and demand was so out of kilter.
Now EVs are depreciating like ICE cars but with higher list prices to begin with, so unless there are discounted lease deals they don't stack up.
I have my i4 through SS but it was on a good "in stock" deal at the time. No way would I have taken one at the standard monthlies. Then again, that goes for pretty much any lease IMO, they are only good value when they're good value.
M4cruiser said:
Irrespective of discounts or RRP, I'm wondering how the car market reached this point where Hyundai/Kia have a zillion different electric models, and have had for several years, whilst Ford have 2 (Mustang & Exporer).
it 'could' end up being a shrewd move? Hyundai and Kia, have been a success I'd say from what I hear re EV's where Vauxhall and some others not so much?Ford could have been either, if they delay then perhaps they can enter late on with more Kia/Hyundai type tech and avoid the costly and unpredictable self development?
Manufacturers frequently buy competitors cars and strip/inspect/reverse engineer them, perhaps this is the long term best bet, especially as the longer you wait the less bad tech your vehicles will have in the future as they age.
Scootersp said:
Manufacturers frequently buy competitors cars and strip/inspect/reverse engineer them
They systematically do indeed. Benchmarking is a big industry and the manufacturers don't even have to buy cars as businesses do that for all the manufacturers plus supply all the data "ready to eat" in a nice nomenclature.I have worked with those guys, incredible business. https://www.a2mac1.com/
Edited by nickfrog on Tuesday 9th July 17:25
M4cruiser said:
Irrespective of discounts or RRP, I'm wondering how the car market reached this point where Hyundai/Kia have a zillion different electric models, and have had for several years, whilst Ford have 2 (Mustang & Exporer).
The Korean brands have been successful in not being repellant to U.K. consumers with driveways and incomes to facilitate the voluntary switch to EV and the wish to do so. Renault appear to have had similar success and might do particularly well with their R5. Stellantis you not really have one model of car that this consumer demographic has a particular interest in, the Fiat 500 but it's quite niche in EV form due to its size.
The really blunt answer is that no one wakes up one morning having worked themselves into a position to own a driveway and have the income and lifestyle that makes an EV in today's market a genuine option and then wants to pay up and over for something with a Ford or Vauxhall badge. They probably don't even realise that they're German, so clearly highly prestigious.
DonkeyApple said:
The really blunt answer is that no one wakes up one morning having worked themselves into a position to own a driveway and have the income and lifestyle that makes an EV in today's market a genuine option and then wants to pay up and over for something with a Ford or Vauxhall badge. They probably don't even realise that they're German, so clearly highly prestigious.
That pretty much nails the demise of those brands, and it massively predates EVs. The seeds of GM Europe's death and Ford of Europe's increasingly inevitable demise were sown a long time ago.M4cruiser said:
Irrespective of discounts or RRP, I'm wondering how the car market reached this point where Hyundai/Kia have a zillion different electric models, and have had for several years, whilst Ford have 2 (Mustang & Exporer).
Don't worry, their saviour, the Capri, is being unveiled tomorrow to add a third EV to the line up I think they intend to have an EV Puma by the end of the year too.
DonkeyApple said:
The Korean brands have been successful in not being repellant to U.K. consumers with driveways and incomes to facilitate the voluntary switch to EV and the wish to do so. Renault appear to have had similar success and might do particularly well with their R5.
Stellantis you not really have one model of car that this consumer demographic has a particular interest in, the Fiat 500 but it's quite niche in EV form due to its size.
The really blunt answer is that no one wakes up one morning having worked themselves into a position to own a driveway and have the income and lifestyle that makes an EV in today's market a genuine option and then wants to pay up and over for something with a Ford or Vauxhall badge. They probably don't even realise that they're German, so clearly highly prestigious.
The Korean brands had a plan it seems and Ford and Vauxhall just missed the boat. It didnt have to be that way. Hyundai and Kia 20 years ago were the Skoda (pre VAG purchase) of their day, but quietly and efficiently reinvented themselves over time, helped by their industry leading warranties. With Ford I feel particularly sad as the 90s saw them with a very strong line up of good to drive, competitive in their class and by and large reliable cars, but once they moved to a global model (the MK3 Focus onwards) and ditched their euro only lines, they seemed to lose the plot. With Vauxhall, in fairness they do offer BEVs but the stigma of those JC Top Gear year reviews still looms large; I always felt that PSA should have renamed them Opel when they took over. Stellantis you not really have one model of car that this consumer demographic has a particular interest in, the Fiat 500 but it's quite niche in EV form due to its size.
The really blunt answer is that no one wakes up one morning having worked themselves into a position to own a driveway and have the income and lifestyle that makes an EV in today's market a genuine option and then wants to pay up and over for something with a Ford or Vauxhall badge. They probably don't even realise that they're German, so clearly highly prestigious.
Fair play to Renault, as they seem to be achieving some success. They have rebounded from the early to mid 2000s when their reputation for unreliable cars was at its zenith. The new Renault 5 looks an intruiging prospect.
greenarrow said:
DonkeyApple said:
The Korean brands have been successful in not being repellant to U.K. consumers with driveways and incomes to facilitate the voluntary switch to EV and the wish to do so. Renault appear to have had similar success and might do particularly well with their R5.
Stellantis you not really have one model of car that this consumer demographic has a particular interest in, the Fiat 500 but it's quite niche in EV form due to its size.
The really blunt answer is that no one wakes up one morning having worked themselves into a position to own a driveway and have the income and lifestyle that makes an EV in today's market a genuine option and then wants to pay up and over for something with a Ford or Vauxhall badge. They probably don't even realise that they're German, so clearly highly prestigious.
The Korean brands had a plan it seems and Ford and Vauxhall just missed the boat. It didnt have to be that way. Hyundai and Kia 20 years ago were the Skoda (pre VAG purchase) of their day, but quietly and efficiently reinvented themselves over time, helped by their industry leading warranties. With Ford I feel particularly sad as the 90s saw them with a very strong line up of good to drive, competitive in their class and by and large reliable cars, but once they moved to a global model (the MK3 Focus onwards) and ditched their euro only lines, they seemed to lose the plot. With Vauxhall, in fairness they do offer BEVs but the stigma of those JC Top Gear year reviews still looms large; I always felt that PSA should have renamed them Opel when they took over. Stellantis you not really have one model of car that this consumer demographic has a particular interest in, the Fiat 500 but it's quite niche in EV form due to its size.
The really blunt answer is that no one wakes up one morning having worked themselves into a position to own a driveway and have the income and lifestyle that makes an EV in today's market a genuine option and then wants to pay up and over for something with a Ford or Vauxhall badge. They probably don't even realise that they're German, so clearly highly prestigious.
Fair play to Renault, as they seem to be achieving some success. They have rebounded from the early to mid 2000s when their reputation for unreliable cars was at its zenith. The new Renault 5 looks an intruiging prospect.
GeniusOfLove said:
DonkeyApple said:
The really blunt answer is that no one wakes up one morning having worked themselves into a position to own a driveway and have the income and lifestyle that makes an EV in today's market a genuine option and then wants to pay up and over for something with a Ford or Vauxhall badge. They probably don't even realise that they're German, so clearly highly prestigious.
That pretty much nails the demise of those brands, and it massively predates EVs. The seeds of GM Europe's death and Ford of Europe's increasingly inevitable demise were sown a long time ago.Ford: Hoisted by their own s
tty debt monkey petard. Both Ford and Vauxhall have created some iconic cars but remained wholly unaspirational in the 21st century as consumers went aspiration mad and were fuelled and empowered by cheap, easy, endless credit.
It's interesting that both brands have a reasonable number of Americans on the Board which I wonder whether this has played a role in being late to the party but to be honest their core U.K. client demographic has zero need to switch to EV, little desire to do so and not exactly any logic until the whole infrastructure has built out much more over the next decade.
So I wonder if there is any reason at all for them to remain importing cars to sell in the U.K. until the market conditions eventually meet their brand values?
plfrench said:
M4cruiser said:
Irrespective of discounts or RRP, I'm wondering how the car market reached this point where Hyundai/Kia have a zillion different electric models, and have had for several years, whilst Ford have 2 (Mustang & Exporer).
Don't worry, their saviour, the Capri, is being unveiled tomorrow to add a third EV to the line up I think they intend to have an EV Puma by the end of the year too.
DonkeyApple said:
Ironically by Ford themselves who introduced PCP to the U.K. and ensured no one ever had to have a Ford or Vauxhall ever again as for just £10/month more they could get a German prestige vehicle that marked them out as the superior beings they truly were. That finance then paved the way for Merc, BMW, Audi etc to enter the smaller car market which really was the nail in the coffin. Meanwhile, the Korean brands just built a solid reputation like the Japanese ones did decades earlier.
Ford: Hoisted by their own stty debt monkey petard.
Both Ford and Vauxhall have created some iconic cars but remained wholly unaspirational in the 21st century as consumers went aspiration mad and were fuelled and empowered by cheap, easy, endless credit.
It's interesting that both brands have a reasonable number of Americans on the Board which I wonder whether this has played a role in being late to the party but to be honest their core U.K. client demographic has zero need to switch to EV, little desire to do so and not exactly any logic until the whole infrastructure has built out much more over the next decade.
So I wonder if there is any reason at all for them to remain importing cars to sell in the U.K. until the market conditions eventually meet their brand values?
Agreed, although I take slight issue with the German vehicles being superior beings comment. I think a big factor in killing Ford and Vauxhall is the inherent British brand snobishness. The German cars have nicer looking interiors but reliability tables show that in many cases they are not "superior". I've never really understood for example why the Golf is such an icon, GTI excepted. For me it doesn't really do anything better than an Astra or a Focus apart from appear better built, but Brits don't want Fords or Vauxhalls anymore as they are seen to be Chavvy 'innit. Hyundai and Kia seem to have avoided being lumped in with Ford and Vauxhall and nicked quite a few sales from former German car owners, helped by decent reliability and strong warranties.Ford: Hoisted by their own s
tty debt monkey petard. Both Ford and Vauxhall have created some iconic cars but remained wholly unaspirational in the 21st century as consumers went aspiration mad and were fuelled and empowered by cheap, easy, endless credit.
It's interesting that both brands have a reasonable number of Americans on the Board which I wonder whether this has played a role in being late to the party but to be honest their core U.K. client demographic has zero need to switch to EV, little desire to do so and not exactly any logic until the whole infrastructure has built out much more over the next decade.
So I wonder if there is any reason at all for them to remain importing cars to sell in the U.K. until the market conditions eventually meet their brand values?
Even BMW/Audi and Merc could be in trouble if they don't get their act together. VW have the I3 (and VAG has the Cupra Born), but the others don't yet have a big selling BEV hatchback to rival the likes of the Kia Nero EV, Hyundai Kona, Renault Megane EV etc....
greenarrow said:
Agreed, although I take slight issue with the German vehicles being superior beings comment. I think a big factor in killing Ford and Vauxhall is the inherent British brand snobishness. The German cars have nicer looking interiors but reliability tables show that in many cases they are not "superior".
It depends on your definition of 'superior'. It you mean reliability then you may have a point when comparing to the Japanese brands. I've had numerous Japanese cars and yes, they were reliable, but complete turds in refinement and drive compared to my BMW (which so far has also been reliable)._Hoppers said:
greenarrow said:
Agreed, although I take slight issue with the German vehicles being superior beings comment. I think a big factor in killing Ford and Vauxhall is the inherent British brand snobishness. The German cars have nicer looking interiors but reliability tables show that in many cases they are not "superior".
It depends on your definition of 'superior'. It you mean reliability then you may have a point when comparing to the Japanese brands. I've had numerous Japanese cars and yes, they were reliable, but complete turds in refinement and drive compared to my BMW (which so far has also been reliable).greenarrow said:
Agreed, although I take slight issue with the German vehicles being superior beings comment. I think a big factor in killing Ford and Vauxhall is the inherent British brand snobishness.
That's exactly the point. It's not about the cars being superior but that renting specific cars makes you infinitely superior as a person. When you wake up in the morning and there is a German car on your driveway you are very clearly a far better person than your neighbour who has a Ford and is therefor a total loser. It's the same with new cars making someone a better person than some monkey with an old Land Rover.
We are a nation of consumer chavs obsessed with brands and terrified of old objects. They cross the cultural divides and can be found everywhere listing objects.
Brands like Ford and Vauxhall are victims of the weaponising of consumer society with credit. The bloke who once marked out his superiority by paying for extra trim bits on a Cavalier and more letters on the badge can for the same uplift today get completely away from that type of car and be in a BMW and now an electric one to boot.
The reality is that some classic brands with great heritage haven't kept up with consumer society and have for the last two decades just slipped down, reliant more and more on smaller and cheaper cars for sales and now that market is nowhere near ready for EVs nor is it meant to be and Asian manufacturers kind of have it down up anyway.
Ford and Vauxhall are huge legacy brands but probably have the hardest decade in the U.K. of most.
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