EVs... no one wants them!

[Dave200]

Scootersp said:

Maracus said:

They absolutely do stack up. Range is not an issue when your daily usage is less than the vehicle's range and you can charge at home each night for under 2ppm.

They do as perhaps a second car, but loads of people have a small hatchback as their one and only means of transport and 100 miles of range whilst normally ok does bring limitations, especially if fast charging isn't really that fast (another issue with smaller EV's they don't tend to have these impressive 20min fast charge options)

Yes they can stack up for some but you have to think about it beforehand not just be confident before you buy, for most I don't think it's enough yet, because their practicalities are far far away from a top end EV and when someone currently has an ICE hatch that has no practical deficits to a Luxury ICE it can't help but feel like a downgrade/backwards step?

Anyone buying a small EV with limited range as their only car right now needs their head reading. The only place that would make sense would be if 100% of your use is just pottering around town.

[raspy]

Scootersp said:

They do as perhaps a second car, but loads of people have a small hatchback as their one and only means of transport and 100 miles of range whilst normally ok does bring limitations, especially if fast charging isn't really that fast (another issue with smaller EV's they don't tend to have these impressive 20min fast charge options)

Yes they can stack up for some but you have to think about it beforehand not just be confident before you buy, for most I don't think it's enough yet, because their practicalities are far far away from a top end EV and when someone currently has an ICE hatch that has no practical deficits to a Luxury ICE it can't help but feel like a downgrade/backwards step?

A Kona is a small hatchback and can do 300 miles as a 64Kw version

[Dave200]

raspy said:

Scootersp said:

They do as perhaps a second car, but loads of people have a small hatchback as their one and only means of transport and 100 miles of range whilst normally ok does bring limitations, especially if fast charging isn't really that fast (another issue with smaller EV's they don't tend to have these impressive 20min fast charge options)

Yes they can stack up for some but you have to think about it beforehand not just be confident before you buy, for most I don't think it's enough yet, because their practicalities are far far away from a top end EV and when someone currently has an ICE hatch that has no practical deficits to a Luxury ICE it can't help but feel like a downgrade/backwards step?

A Kona is a small hatchback and can do 300 miles as a 64Kw version

I tested one, and it looked like it would struggle to do the claimed range. By contrast, I had a Niro EV (the old shape) as an Uber recently, and the owner was very complimentary about the range vs claimed over 30k miles or so.

[anonymous-user]

raspy said:

A Kona is a small hatchback and can do 300 miles as a 64Kw version

My wife had a 2021 e-niro with the 64kwh pack until recently (which I think is v similar to the Kona), and it was more like 230-250 mile range depending on the usual stuff like weather, temp, speed etc. Still pretty good though.

[raspy]

Dave200 said:

I tested one, and it looked like it would struggle to do the claimed range. By contrast, I had a Niro EV (the old shape) as an Uber recently, and the owner was very complimentary about the range vs claimed over 30k miles or so.

Someone on another forum reckons they get 280-300 in summer at 65mph out of their Kona

https://www.speakev.com/threads/so-what-is-the-mot...

[nick1871]

The Kona/Niro will do 300 miles plus in Summer. I never saw less than 260 miles range in mine.

[DonkeyApple]

Maracus said:

DonkeyApple said:

ChocolateFrog said:

All depends on if you need the range or not.

If you do genuinely need 100's of miles of range then yes I agree. It's a fundamental problem with the form factor. You can't physically fit a 100kwh of storage under a Fiat 500 in battery form.

Yet.

Good point, Toyota and Nissan say this dense storage battery is 'just around the corner'

And I suspect they will still be saying that years after BYD or CATL have been putting them in cars.

Toyota and Nissan have backed SS quite hard and now Chinese wet cell chemistry looks to have caught up with the projected energy densities and safety the Japanese firms have been promising for years.

This is interesting as it shows the general trend: https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw...



It does give the impression that it won't be too many years before 100kwh batteries are taking up the size and weight of today's 50kwh batteries.

Small EVs today are far too expensive and limited on range to suitably replace a low income household's use of a small ICe to cover all tasks but they work absolutely fine for higher income households with driveways and other cars which is all they are currently aimed at.

What's important is that the battery tech continues to improve so that within ten years these small EVs are much more usable over a much wider remit, their costs are much lower and the third party infrastructure suitably expanded. Then another decade for the used market to proliferate with them.

What we do want to be doing with BIK is starting to remove it from higher value EVs as more smaller and cheaper ones come to market. It's those smaller and cheaper EVs we want most when it comes to stocking up the used market.

[loudlashadjuster]

DonkeyApple said:

And I suspect they will still be saying that years after BYD or CATL have been putting them in cars.

Toyota and Nissan have backed SS quite hard and now Chinese wet cell chemistry looks to have caught up with the projected energy densities and safety the Japanese firms have been promising for years.

This is interesting as it shows the general trend: https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw...

[Img]https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/styles/full_article_width/public/2022-04/FOTW_1234.png?itok=efOIFaQM[/thumb]

It does give the impression that it won't be too many years before 100kwh batteries are taking up the size and weight of today's 50kwh batteries.

Small EVs today are far too expensive and limited on range to suitably replace a low income household's use of a small ICe to cover all tasks but they work absolutely fine for higher income households with driveways and other cars which is all they are currently aimed at.

What's important is that the battery tech continues to improve so that within ten years these small EVs are much more usable over a much wider remit, their costs are much lower and the third party infrastructure suitably expanded. Then another decade for the used market to proliferate with them.

What we do want to be doing with BIK is starting to remove it from higher value EVs as more smaller and cheaper ones come to market. It's those smaller and cheaper EVs we want most when it comes to stocking up the used market.

The thing is, it is my understanding that physics certainly doesn't preclude a vastly more energy dense solid state battery - can you imagine 200 kWh in something the size and weight of a traditional car fuel tank (full)?! How transformative would that be?

Wet cells will always have the disadvantage of having to lug around all that electrolyte which is absolutely needed to get the electrons where they need to be, but doesn't contribute to energy storage. If the boffins get something like Li-air working then...

[DonkeyApple]

loudlashadjuster said:

The thing is, it is my understanding that physics certainly doesn't preclude a vastly more energy dense solid state battery - can you imagine 200 kWh in something the size and weight of a traditional car fuel tank (full)?! How transformative would that be?

Wet cells will always have the disadvantage of having to lug around all that electrolyte which is absolutely needed to get the electrons where they need to be, but doesn't contribute to energy storage. If the boffins get something like Li-air working then...

Indeed but major corporations have been trying to get the product out of the lab since the 80s and just failed time and time again.

We appear to be close to actually seeing a SS battery in a car but wet cells look to have almost surpassed these in energy density terms but more importantly with costs magnitudes lower.

That's the big risk facing SS, cost. If wet cells can be made that have matching density but a fraction of the cost then nearly all the funding into SS will halt as the uplift in funding during this century has only occurred because it was believed wet cells would never have the energy densities they have achieved so quickly.

Energy storage is the single largest technological failure of mankind. When the problem is finally cracked and we can genuinely store huge amounts of energy in a small parcel then the doors of innovation that will be opened overnight will be simply 'shocking'.

[braddo]

Scootersp said:

They do as perhaps a second car, but loads of people have a small hatchback as their one and only means of transport

Remember, no-one is being forced to buy an EV or a brand new car. If an EV doesn't suit someone today, that's OK. Things will evolve and their appeal will continue to broaden over the next 10-20 years.

Less than half of UK households have 1 car.

About 35% of UK households more more than 1 car.

22% of households have no car at all.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-...

As of today there are millions for whom a EV doesn't quite work yet, mainly due to charging infrastructure. There are many millions for whom an EV works just fine today and they simply have to wait some years until the used EV market grows to a sufficient size (when there will be decent choice at a wide range of budgets).

[braddo]

Here are some interesting stats from UK government - average number of trips by trip length, from 2002 until 2022.

For car/van drivers it has been remarkably stable - only 3 trips per year of more than 100 miles!

Or 0.7% of the average person's total car trips. For trips of 50-100 miles it is a steady downward trend over the past 20 years, from 7 trips to 5.


It is a reminder for the classic PHer - a middle-aged British male who likes driving - that the vast majority of UK drivers do very few long journeys and that they don't enjoy them. For most people who can afford to go on holiday, they go to airports.


Source - this link and then download NTS0308 -
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-set...

[Unreal]

braddo said:

Scootersp said:

They do as perhaps a second car, but loads of people have a small hatchback as their one and only means of transport

Remember, no-one is being forced to buy an EV or a brand new car. If an EV doesn't suit someone today, that's OK. Things will evolve and their appeal will continue to broaden over the next 10-20 years.

Less than half of UK households have 1 car.

About 35% of UK households more more than 1 car.

22% of households have no car at all.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-...

As of today there are millions for whom a EV doesn't quite work yet, mainly due to charging infrastructure. There are many millions for whom an EV works just fine today and they simply have to wait some years until the used EV market grows to a sufficient size (when there will be decent choice at a wide range of budgets).

Completely agree. If you could just add that those who currently own EVs or ICE vehicles don't necessarily have the best cars we can close the thread.

[Roger Irrelevant]

braddo said:

Here are some interesting stats from UK government - average number of trips by trip length, from 2002 until 2022.

For car/van drivers it has been remarkably stable - only 3 trips per year of more than 100 miles!

I'm honestly amazed at that. I always knew I was a bit of an outlier in doing the number of 100 mile + journeys I do, but I didn't realise by how much.

[Dave200]

raspy said:

Dave200 said:

I tested one, and it looked like it would struggle to do the claimed range. By contrast, I had a Niro EV (the old shape) as an Uber recently, and the owner was very complimentary about the range vs claimed over 30k miles or so.

Someone on another forum reckons they get 280-300 in summer at 65mph out of their Kona

https://www.speakev.com/threads/so-what-is-the-mot...

From the owner themself on that thread.
"So when someone asks if they can expect to travel 200-220 motorway miles at 68mph all year round in rain, with headwind etc, and without stopping - the actual answer to that question is no."

My Tesla does 320+ (against a claimed 350) in mixed use without needing to crawl along with everything turned off.

[GT9]

Roger Irrelevant said:

I'm honestly amazed at that. I always knew I was a bit of an outlier in doing the number of 100 mile + journeys I do, but I didn't realise by how much.

Username checks out.
Statistically-speaking only of course.

[M4cruiser]

DonkeyApple said:

What we don't want right now is Labour stupidly putting more cash incentives on EVs which are just taxpayer bailouts to overseas manufacturers as now is the time to be turning the screws on them.

What we will get right now is exactly that.
Labour are inexperienced in government. They will soon find out that their "fully funded, fully costed" plans are not that easy to implement. They will have to incentivise EV take up somehow, possible by dis-incentivising ICE through tax rises. It's not that easy to make us buy EVs that are built in the UK.

[greenarrow]

Roger Irrelevant said:

braddo said:

Here are some interesting stats from UK government - average number of trips by trip length, from 2002 until 2022.

For car/van drivers it has been remarkably stable - only 3 trips per year of more than 100 miles!

I'm honestly amazed at that. I always knew I was a bit of an outlier in doing the number of 100 mile + journeys I do, but I didn't realise by how much.

Doesn't surprise me much tbh, in my immediate group of friends and family I am the only one who breaches the 3 trips per year of more than 100 miles barrier. My daughter might do too, due to travelling back home from Manchester 240 miles. We are in the minority in 2024, I do believe it.

But in my case, I am wondering if 15-20 such trips a year is such a big deal as the infrastructure for charging continues to develop.

Hence why I am leaning towards EV next time..

[DonkeyApple]

M4cruiser said:

What we will get right now is exactly that.
Labour are inexperienced in government. They will soon find out that their "fully funded, fully costed" plans are not that easy to implement. They will have to incentivise EV take up somehow, possible by dis-incentivising ICE through tax rises. It's not that easy to make us buy EVs that are built in the UK.

The issue is that any financial bonus aimed at the consumer gets absorbed by the manufacturer via elevated RRPs so all you're doing is giving money to manufacturers and forcing consumers to pay more.

Now the ZEV Mandate is in place we really don't need to be using financial incentives as the manufacturers have no choice but to sell x % of EVs a year or foxtrot oscar. Let them just duke it out for sales and the best way to do that and to protect the ICE business is discounting.

[Sheepshanks]

DonkeyApple said:

The issue is that any financial bonus aimed at the consumer gets absorbed by the manufacturer via elevated RRPs so all you're doing is giving money to manufacturers and forcing consumers to pay more.

You've only got to look at Salary Sacrifice pricing to see that in action - the gross pricing is generally bonkers. I wouldn't be surprised to see that either knocked on the head or changed to basic rate - unless lots of NHS staff have taken them up,

[monkfish1]

DonkeyApple said:

M4cruiser said:

What we will get right now is exactly that.
Labour are inexperienced in government. They will soon find out that their "fully funded, fully costed" plans are not that easy to implement. They will have to incentivise EV take up somehow, possible by dis-incentivising ICE through tax rises. It's not that easy to make us buy EVs that are built in the UK.

The issue is that any financial bonus aimed at the consumer gets absorbed by the manufacturer via elevated RRPs so all you're doing is giving money to manufacturers and forcing consumers to pay more.

Now the ZEV Mandate is in place we really don't need to be using financial incentives as the manufacturers have no choice but to sell x % of EVs a year or foxtrot oscar. Let them just duke it out for sales and the best way to do that and to protect the ICE business is discounting.

The mandate is well and good. Right up to the point where discounting to get the sales to people who dont want them causes you to sell at a loss on an onging basis. That has no long term future for any manufacturer.

It will be interesting for sure.

I suspect some manufacturers will simply bail and focus on easier markets once it becomes clear to them they cant make cars at a price the consumer will pay..