EVs... no one wants them!

[M4cruiser]

DonkeyApple said:

r3g said:

All the figures were posted in the secondhand car price crash thread. You can argue with all the dealers over there and tell them they are wrong.

So you don't know? And you don't suspect folks are using the RRP to estimate depreciation?

I've been watching the used prices fall. RRP is irrelevant for that, except for the prices of "new" (pre-reg) ones. Leafs are on a £12,000 "discount" at the moment (RRP=£31K, on sale for £19K), which has helped push down the value of 5-year-old ones.

But the price crash in 5-year old ones is real, over the last 2 to 3 years anyway. The price tag £10,999 reduced to £6,999 wasn't faked. That dealer probably paid a trade £8K for it.

[r3g]

nickfrog said:

r3g said:

All the figures were posted in the secondhand car price crash thread. You can argue with all the dealers over there and tell them they are wrong.

A representative sample of the entire EV market with audited data? Or anecdotic evidence?

For the 3rd time, as posted by the dealers who sell them for a living over in the secondhand car price crash thread. You can go to that thread and tell them they are all wrong over there and must be doing something wrong as Autotrader reckons they're flying out of the door like hot cakes.

[anonymous-user]

M4cruiser said:

I've been watching the used prices fall. RRP is irrelevant for that, except for the prices of "new" (pre-reg) ones. Leafs are on a £12,000 "discount" at the moment (RRP=£31K, on sale for £19K), which has helped push down the value of 5-year-old ones.

But the price crash in 5-year old ones is real, over the last 2 to 3 years anyway. The price tag £10,999 reduced to £6,999 wasn't faked. That dealer probably paid a trade £8K for it.

Chademo being phased out isn't helping Leaf residuals. If you buy a leaf with say a 120 mile range (like the 40kwh version), you are basically stuck with a car which can only travel 60 miles max distance from your house (as you need to be sure you can get back home). Having said that, as a second or third car, it's probably perfect for many people.

[DonkeyApple]

M4cruiser said:

I've been watching the used prices fall. RRP is irrelevant for that, except for the prices of "new" (pre-reg) ones. Leafs are on a £12,000 "discount" at the moment (RRP=£31K, on sale for £19K), which has helped push down the value of 5-year-old ones.

But the price crash in 5-year old ones is real, over the last 2 to 3 years anyway. The price tag £10,999 reduced to £6,999 wasn't faked. That dealer probably paid a trade £8K for it.

Yup but the key here is that RRP is largely irrelevant as it was never the initial 'price'. More so with dearer EVs which on the whole are almost all acquired via BIK and even the cheaper ones had the grant and were still financed.

By far the most logical way to gauge true depreciation on 'nearly new' would be to know the average monthly cost net of all subs, faux 'dealer contributions etc and contrast that to the monthly cost of the vehicle in 2024.

It would be genuinely interesting to know what people were paying per month back in 2021/2 for a Taycan as we know what that car will cost per month 3 years on and we also know what a new one can be acquired for.

[nickfrog]

r3g said:

nickfrog said:

r3g said:

All the figures were posted in the secondhand car price crash thread. You can argue with all the dealers over there and tell them they are wrong.

A representative sample of the entire EV market with audited data? Or anecdotic evidence?

For the 3rd time, as posted by the dealers who sell them for a living over in the secondhand car price crash thread. You can go to that thread and tell them they are all wrong over there and must be doing something wrong as Autotrader reckons they're flying out of the door like hot cakes.

A representative sample of the entire EV market with audited data? Or anecdotic evidence?

Have you checked the average selling time for used EVs on AT? EVs do take longer. But not shockingly so. Based on your assumptions I would expect them to take years to sell as "no one wants them". At any price.

Price just balances supply and demand.

No one said they were selling like hot cakes, you just invented that.

Edited by nickfrog on Monday 8th July 10:57

[Dave200]

tamore said:

new values for a lot of EVs were ridiculously inflated, but now they are off their lease schemes (mostly) the 2nd hand value has found a more realistic level.

hopefully this will lead to more realistic new car pricing and more smaller, cheaper models.

We're now in a world where £30k buys you a mid-range Focus. All new car prices are "inflated".

[Tindersticks]

Richard Symons puts up regular market updates - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DGr8JwZd9s&t=...

[Dave200]

halo34 said:

RichardD said:

halo34 said:

This thread always delivers
...

I have a major annoyance with it that it doesn't have a center display or HUD. But I guess in the interest of manufacturing processes it might make life easier?
...

Didn't Dave200 post a link on here many pages ago to a mini centre display type unit? (It wasn't particularly expensive).

Yeah - if it wasnt getting changed out soon might of gone for it - will see what the next one brings.

I was dead-set on getting one. 18 months later, and I haven't felt the need.

[Scootersp]

ACCYSTAN said:

3 different owners of 3 different stellantis electric cars this weekend (corsa, C4 and a Fiat 500), all think the range is garbage (which they are), all horrified by insurance doubling, C4 owner can’t believe he only got 18,000 miles before needing new tyres, all are glad they PCP the vehicles and can hand them back.

No issues with how they drive, they prefer the electric auto with the instant power but as a car to live with, all agreed they are a step backwards because of the poor range, poor interface and expensive insurance costs.
As the lady who runs the elecy 500 said ‘it’s as if they added the battery at the end and gave no thought to how it would work with the car’.

In an EV world it seems you will always be behind in a smaller cheaper car, not just behind as you are with ICE, with badge, luxury etc but genuinely hindered on the day to day practicalities and massively so compared to a small ICE car?

Going from a thirsty S class Merc or 7 series BMW to a Tesla, well the Tesla with fast charging might even be a step up in practicality, but a pretty easy sideways step at least, I can see that, but these small EV's vs their ICE equivalent? that sounds like a big backward step? These, still quite expensive, low range EV's just don't seem to stack up?

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

....

It would be genuinely interesting to know what people were paying per month back in 2021/2 for a Taycan as we know what that car will cost per month 3 years on and we also know what a new one can be acquired for.

Roughly speaking, I think a Taycan 4S with the large battery in 2021 cost around £87k before options. That car is now probably worth about half its original price, so around £45k.

The personal lease costs (taking into account any deposit) was probably around £1450/month. But of course very few people would take that car on a personal lease. Adjusting to a business lease (10% VAT) would make the cost around £1,300 / month. And that could be paid from pre-tax profits, which makes the net cost for a higher rate dividend tax payer around £650/month.

So the savvy business owner has probably run one for a net cost of less than £25k for 3 years, which makes it no more expensive to lease than a nice BMW petrol 5 series.

[DonkeyApple]

Scootersp said:

In an EV world it seems you will always be behind in a smaller cheaper car, not just behind as you are with ICE, with badge, luxury etc but genuinely hindered on the day to day practicalities and massively so compared to a small ICE car?

Going from a thirsty S class Merc or 7 series BMW to a Tesla, well the Tesla with fast charging might even be a step up in practicality, but a pretty easy sideways step at least, I can see that, but these small EV's vs their ICE equivalent? that sounds like a big backward step? These, still quite expensive, low range EV's just don't seem to stack up?

Yes. That is the precise phase the EV side is currently in and why the govt has taken a top down approach. What it means for the manufacturers who predominantly sell to the consumer demographic that is 10-20 years away from needing, wanting or being bothered to switch is that the ZEV Mandate is going to drill them a new one if they don't up their game.

From what we can see looking at the market, Renault and VW have decided to work towards smaller and cheaper EVs and to fend off Asian competition but others like Ford and Stellantis do have a genuine branding issue.

But the purpose of the ZEV Mandate is to break their balls not those of the consumers. And it is a brilliant solution as not a single one of us need any of their EV products but by law they need to sell greater and greater percentages or go away. And while they've been wittering on about how they'll increase the price of ICE to cover the cost of fines, we're all laughing at such a silly 'dog ate homework' load of tripe as it just means they won't be selling any ICE or EVs. There is only one way they can meet their obligation and that is through pricing and the used market has made it abundantly clear as to where consumers are prepared to act.

What we don't want right now is Labour stupidly putting more cash incentives on EVs which are just taxpayer bailouts to overseas manufacturers as now is the time to be turning the screws on them.

[Maracus]

Scootersp said:

These, still quite expensive, low range EV's just don't seem to stack up?

They absolutely do stack up. Range is not an issue when your daily usage is less than the vehicle's range and you can charge at home each night for under 2ppm.

[ChocolateFrog]

Scootersp said:

In an EV world it seems you will always be behind in a smaller cheaper car, not just behind as you are with ICE, with badge, luxury etc but genuinely hindered on the day to day practicalities and massively so compared to a small ICE car?

Going from a thirsty S class Merc or 7 series BMW to a Tesla, well the Tesla with fast charging might even be a step up in practicality, but a pretty easy sideways step at least, I can see that, but these small EV's vs their ICE equivalent? that sounds like a big backward step? These, still quite expensive, low range EV's just don't seem to stack up?

All depends on if you need the range or not.

If you do genuinely need 100's of miles of range then yes I agree. It's a fundamental problem with the form factor. You can't physically fit a 100kwh of storage under a Fiat 500 in battery form.

[DonkeyApple]

ChocolateFrog said:

All depends on if you need the range or not.

If you do genuinely need 100's of miles of range then yes I agree. It's a fundamental problem with the form factor. You can't physically fit a 100kwh of storage under a Fiat 500 in battery form.

Yet.

[ChocolateFrog]

Conversely there can't be anyone better placed than Rolls Royce for the transition to BEV.

[ChocolateFrog]

DonkeyApple said:

ChocolateFrog said:

All depends on if you need the range or not.

If you do genuinely need 100's of miles of range then yes I agree. It's a fundamental problem with the form factor. You can't physically fit a 100kwh of storage under a Fiat 500 in battery form.

Yet.

True but even as an optimist I can't see a 3 or 4x energy density increase in the near to medium future.

[Maracus]

DonkeyApple said:

ChocolateFrog said:

All depends on if you need the range or not.

If you do genuinely need 100's of miles of range then yes I agree. It's a fundamental problem with the form factor. You can't physically fit a 100kwh of storage under a Fiat 500 in battery form.

Yet.

Good point, Toyota and Nissan say this dense storage battery is 'just around the corner'

[Scootersp]

Maracus said:

They absolutely do stack up. Range is not an issue when your daily usage is less than the vehicle's range and you can charge at home each night for under 2ppm.

They do as perhaps a second car, but loads of people have a small hatchback as their one and only means of transport and 100 miles of range whilst normally ok does bring limitations, especially if fast charging isn't really that fast (another issue with smaller EV's they don't tend to have these impressive 20min fast charge options)

Yes they can stack up for some but you have to think about it beforehand not just be confident before you buy, for most I don't think it's enough yet, because their practicalities are far far away from a top end EV and when someone currently has an ICE hatch that has no practical deficits to a Luxury ICE it can't help but feel like a downgrade/backwards step?

[Maracus]

Scootersp said:

Maracus said:

They absolutely do stack up. Range is not an issue when your daily usage is less than the vehicle's range and you can charge at home each night for under 2ppm.

They do as perhaps a second car, but loads of people have a small hatchback as their one and only means of transport and 100 miles of range whilst normally ok does bring limitations, especially if fast charging isn't really that fast (another issue with smaller EV's they don't tend to have these impressive 20min fast charge options)

Yes they can stack up for some but you have to think about it beforehand not just be confident before you buy, for most I don't think it's enough yet, because their practicalities are far far away from a top end EV and when someone currently has an ICE hatch that has no practical deficits to a Luxury ICE it can't help but feel like a downgrade/backwards step?

Agreed, yes as a second car. But then if you're only needing the car for a longer journey once or twice a year, then the odd DC charge is a small compromise. A 20 min rapid would probably add 60-70 miles assuming a max charge speed of 50kW.

I personally wouldn't want to run a 100/150 mile range EV if I wasn't able to charge from home or work.

[greenarrow]

Tindersticks said:

Richard Symons puts up regular market updates - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DGr8JwZd9s&t=...

He's good isn't he. His EV car dealership is only 10 miles away from me. I keep meaning to pay him a visit and carry out that first ever drive of a BEV. I find all his stuff interesting. He's been a bit of a You Tube pioneer with his EV only channel and I have noted how his subs have increased substantially since he first arrived on my radar. He also does proper road testing of the cars giving you realistic range etc.