EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
MightyBadger said:
otolith said:
I'm sure you do. They burn fossil fuels. That produces carbon dioxide. They do not believe that continuing to do that is sustainable.
For every tonne of mined lithium, 15 tonnes of CO2 are emitted into the air......https://earth.org/lithium-and-cobalt-mining/#:~:te...
The question of how many cars is opaque, because people seem to quote very different numbers for the quantity of lithium in the battery. I suspect that the larger numbers are the mass of the lithium salt in the batteries (LiPF6), or in the extracted lithium carbonate (Li2CO3) used to make it and the smaller ones the actual mass of lithium.
Also, your 15 tonnes figure. Earth.org got it from climate.mit.edu who got it from a BBC article who got it from PR puff from Vulcan Zero Carbon Lithium who got it from the consultancy Minviro. It is 15 tonnes of CO2 per tonne of lithium hydroxide and that figure is for hard rock mining only. The figure they quote for brine extraction is 5 tonnes, and the figure for Vulcan's process is zero tonnes. It's not clear whether those figures are for anhydrous LiOH or the monohydrate LiOH.H2O.
Anyway, Vulcan's investor presentation does the maths, and puts the CO2 output for building an EV from lithium production at 675kg if it's hard rock mining (therefore 225kg if it's from brine). So that is the equivalent of 64 gallons of petrol for hard rock or 21 gallons for brine. Set that against being used for several hundred thousand miles of motoring on renewable energy in the first car, and then recycling for reuse in future cars.
https://www.investi.com.au/api/announcements/vul/b...
Jimjimhim said:
otolith said:
Jimjimhim said:
I'm sure that I don't.
You must have been living under a rock for 20 years if you haven't heard about this. MightyBadger said:
OutInTheShed said:
The people wanting a car and looking to spend under ten grand would probably mostly choose electric if the price was right.
Absolutely not true.People who are not awash with money and not looking for a fashion statement would probably be those who'd most appreciate the fuel savings.
It's only when you get below the £10k level that fuel costs matter much, above that, the majority of motoring costs are generally depreciation and/or finance.
OutInTheShed said:
What do you base that on?
People who are not awash with money and not looking for a fashion statement would probably be those who'd most appreciate the fuel savings.
It's only when you get below the £10k level that fuel costs matter much, above that, the majority of motoring costs are generally depreciation and/or finance.
KwikFit produce a report a few years back that showed maintenance and fuel as the highest cost burden for lower income car owners. People who are not awash with money and not looking for a fashion statement would probably be those who'd most appreciate the fuel savings.
It's only when you get below the £10k level that fuel costs matter much, above that, the majority of motoring costs are generally depreciation and/or finance.
In time, used EVs will be a financial godsend to lower income households and they won't care one iota that once a week they have to leave the car for a few hours somewhere to charge if needs be. The key is that it'll take at least a decade, arguably two for the used car market to populate nicely at the lower end with EVs and for the remote charging network to build out so until then people must wait, which by all accounts is what they wish to do so that's all perfect and everyone can be happy. The national policy plays into that perfectly.
The actual spanner in the works is local policies where there are more than a few local authorities who are actively targeting the lowest income car users as we have already been seeing but if push comes to shove they can at least be voted out and replaced by entities offering a mandate that aligns with the national policy and isn't hideously regressive.
MightyBadger said:
OutInTheShed said:
The people wanting a car and looking to spend under ten grand would probably mostly choose electric if the price was right.
Absolutely not true.OutInTheShed said:
MightyBadger said:
OutInTheShed said:
The people wanting a car and looking to spend under ten grand would probably mostly choose electric if the price was right.
Absolutely not true.People who are not awash with money and not looking for a fashion statement would probably be those who'd most appreciate the fuel savings.
It's only when you get below the £10k level that fuel costs matter much, above that, the majority of motoring costs are generally depreciation and/or finance.
If you regularly do longer distances then I don't think an EV is the right choice.
If you don't have off street parking then the price of charging on the public network is a big minus.
wevster said:
I think people will chose a car based on how they use it and whether they have off street parking.
If you regularly do longer distances then I don't think an EV is the right choice.
If you don't have off street parking then the price of charging on the public network is a big minus.
I’d agree with that. If you regularly do longer distances then I don't think an EV is the right choice.
If you don't have off street parking then the price of charging on the public network is a big minus.
TheRainMaker said:
Not really - assuming we sell total of 2M cars this year, then to hit 19% would mean selling 35,484 BEVs for each of the remaining 6 months. We did 34,034 in June, so not a million miles off. For the first year, I don't think 19% would be too bad a start and certainly not bad enough to say the whole scheme isn't viable.plfrench said:
TheRainMaker said:
Not really - assuming we sell total of 2M cars this year, then to hit 19% would mean selling 35,484 BEVs for each of the remaining 6 months. We did 34,034 in June, so not a million miles off. For the first year, I don't think 19% would be too bad a start and certainly not bad enough to say the whole scheme isn't viable.'If a manufacturer sells more ZEVs than their target, they will have a surplus of allowances they can sell, bank, or convert their excess allowances. If a manufacturer sells fewer ZEVs than their target, they can buy, borrow, use banked allowances or convert CO2 emissions allowances to meet their obligation or make a final compliance payment.'
The fun starts in 2026 when they have to sell 33% as EVs and no allowances.
That gives them 2 years to find and nominate the staff who are going to have suck like Dysons to find enough consumers. Meanwhile EV only vendors will be taking customers from them making it even harder.
They will have to discount, beg, grovel and ultimately bend over and present.
Meanwhile, they'll keep making threats to consumers that if they don't buy EVs then they'll up the price of ICE to punish them and they'll keep trying to find jetski politicians to bribe but the reality is that the car manufacturers are about to get their just deserts.
otolith said:
Jimjimhim said:
otolith said:
Jimjimhim said:
I'm sure that I don't.
You must have been living under a rock for 20 years if you haven't heard about this. 740EVTORQUES said:
MightyBadger said:
otolith said:
I'm sure you do. They burn fossil fuels. That produces carbon dioxide. They do not believe that continuing to do that is sustainable.
For every tonne of mined lithium, 15 tonnes of CO2 are emitted into the air......https://earth.org/lithium-and-cobalt-mining/#:~:te...
Edited by MightyBadger on Thursday 4th July 14:32
Glosphil said:
plfrench said:
I’ve remembered this time that this thread isn’t about no one wanting EVs, but June’s registration figures are out - steadily going upwards now - 19%, so very nearly 1 in every 5 cars sold were BEV. Pretty strong numbers.
Or, 4 out of 5 were ICE. Very strong numbers. 
t to the COVID thread. SDK said:
Some people continue to claim EV’s are dead and sales are dropping 
Yet this is the 7th consecutive month petrol & diesel market share is down and BEV up
It’s this kind of nonsense commentary that is putting people off EVs. The upwards trend is very slow. Compared to 2023 market share of new cars is up less than 1%.Yet this is the 7th consecutive month petrol & diesel market share is down and BEV up
To hit the ZEV mandate the monthly market share needs to increase significantly to correct the shortfall for the first half of 2024. Even in isolation the June numbers are short of the 22% ZEv mandate.
The reality is that hybrids are gaining the most share as a percentage and in absolute sales numbers.
Righly or wrongly BEVs aren’t gaining much market share despite significant incentives.
Dave200 said:
I make a perfectly reasonable assumption that an open petrol station will have petrol, and I'm being called a liar, thick, and blamed for a petrol station running out of petrol.
The other day I made a perfectly reasonably assumption that a charge-point would be working, because zap-map said it was. It wasn't. Nor was the next one. Luckily the third one was working and unoccupied. Edited by Dave200 on Thursday 4th July 07:22
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