EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
plfrench said:
It’s only just been introduced and never been pushed back.
The manufacturers who have sold vehicles in the UK since 1st Jan this year have essentially contracted to comply with the rules of the game which were laid out for them to see. As I said earlier, you cannot just change the rules after the game has started.
The rules can change if it is needed. Nothing is ever permanent and so if all the car companies said to the UK Government and EU, look we've tried but we aren't getting the numbers. Then things will change. End of the day, there's not many private buyers for new cars these days as it is. Those lease/fleet/company car owners are the ones making up the numbers but there's only a limited amount of those people, year in year out.The manufacturers who have sold vehicles in the UK since 1st Jan this year have essentially contracted to comply with the rules of the game which were laid out for them to see. As I said earlier, you cannot just change the rules after the game has started.
Maracus said:
Which Vauxhall EVs looks different to their ICE cars?
OK I don't like any current Vauxhall at all then. I've classed their entire range as EV as they pretty much are. This isn't a dig at EVs as I like the look of the Ioniq 5, BYD Seal, Cupra Born are to me nice looking cars. Ankh87 said:
Maracus said:
Which Vauxhall EVs looks different to their ICE cars?
OK I don't like any current Vauxhall at all then. I've classed their entire range as EV as they pretty much are. This isn't a dig at EVs as I like the look of the Ioniq 5, BYD Seal, Cupra Born are to me nice looking cars. Maracus said:
Ankh87 said:
Maracus said:
Which Vauxhall EVs looks different to their ICE cars?
OK I don't like any current Vauxhall at all then. I've classed their entire range as EV as they pretty much are. This isn't a dig at EVs as I like the look of the Ioniq 5, BYD Seal, Cupra Born are to me nice looking cars. Note i3 and i3S excluded from that comment as imo they're nailed on future classics.
Random shower thought this morning and apologies if it's been said before:
Those that can afford to buy an EV new usually have their own driveway/off-road parking which allows them to easily charge from home. So that person is happy to buy it new and bring an EV in to the world.
But those who look for a used car are less likely to be able to afford the luxury of off-road parking therefore there is a much bigger gap in demand for 2-3 year old EVs than there are for ICEs so the depreciation with always be more significant.
Those that can afford to buy an EV new usually have their own driveway/off-road parking which allows them to easily charge from home. So that person is happy to buy it new and bring an EV in to the world.
But those who look for a used car are less likely to be able to afford the luxury of off-road parking therefore there is a much bigger gap in demand for 2-3 year old EVs than there are for ICEs so the depreciation with always be more significant.
AlexNJ89 said:
Random shower thought this morning and apologies if it's been said before:
Those that can afford to buy an EV new usually have their own driveway/off-road parking which allows them to easily charge from home. So that person is happy to buy it new and bring an EV in to the world.
But those who look for a used car are less likely to be able to afford the luxury of off-road parking therefore there is a much bigger gap in demand for 2-3 year old EVs than there are for ICEs so the depreciation with always be more significant.
I think there is some truth in that, but suspect that it will be more marked once they are more like 8-10 years old. Lots of driveways in this affluent Surrey suburb populated by 2016-2020 cars. I think the tax incentives for salary sacrifice and the clarity of the TCO calculation for new buyers who have a fixed ownership cost make it a no-brainer for a lot of people, whereas there is less advantage and more uncertainty for second owners.Those that can afford to buy an EV new usually have their own driveway/off-road parking which allows them to easily charge from home. So that person is happy to buy it new and bring an EV in to the world.
But those who look for a used car are less likely to be able to afford the luxury of off-road parking therefore there is a much bigger gap in demand for 2-3 year old EVs than there are for ICEs so the depreciation with always be more significant.
FiF said:
Always the case, either a house 'style' or design look appeals or not. I could say there is no chance of me ever having a BMW EV, despite the i4 being a cracker of a car. But it would be very much driven by wondering if the BMW design dept operates a daycare centre for their guide dogs.
Note i3 and i3S excluded from that comment as imo they're nailed on future classics.
The i3 still looks fresh and from the fugure. Great product, especially the original one with the Rex.Note i3 and i3S excluded from that comment as imo they're nailed on future classics.
Ankh87 said:
End of the day, there's not many private buyers for new cars these days as it is. Those lease/fleet/company car owners are the ones making up the numbers but there's only a limited amount of those people, year in year out.
If that is the case, even if 100% of private buyers opt for ICE this year, surely it should stillbe an absolute doddle for manufactures to ensure that 22% of their new car sales are BEVs
if most of their new car sales are lease/fleet/company cars?
what an absolutely seminal piece of design that I3 was..... now getting towards 12 years old.
Also rather stark how comparatively little progress we've made. That car with the range extender was an ideal second car for millions of drivers, and if you lived in a city was likely all you need. But all that time later and EVs even today struggling to establish themselves as a risk free choice for single car households.
They gambled on low mass and efficiency together with a lower capacity lighter battery, and that's still probably the way things need to move longer term....
Also rather stark how comparatively little progress we've made. That car with the range extender was an ideal second car for millions of drivers, and if you lived in a city was likely all you need. But all that time later and EVs even today struggling to establish themselves as a risk free choice for single car households.
They gambled on low mass and efficiency together with a lower capacity lighter battery, and that's still probably the way things need to move longer term....
PBCD said:
Ankh87 said:
End of the day, there's not many private buyers for new cars these days as it is. Those lease/fleet/company car owners are the ones making up the numbers but there's only a limited amount of those people, year in year out.
If that is the case, even if 100% of private buyers opt for ICE this year, surely it should stillbe an absolute doddle for manufactures to ensure that 22% of their new car sales are BEVs
if most of their new car sales are lease/fleet/company cars?
Sitting in the MoT station waiting area I was idly fannying around with configurators. Might have mentioned Renault one earlier. Also managed to configure myself a LR Defender 110 which was not available in EV as an engine option.
Petrol/Diesel/PHEV only.
Didn't go silly with the options either, petrol and diesel options would result in bik charge of around £1300 a month based on 37%. Even the PHEV with same options would be 21%. If a full EV were available, currently 2% , next year 3%.
I have to agree the manufacturer's are not designing what punters want on the whole. Massively over complicated products & over priced, too big or impractical, too smaller range real world range, massively inefficient SUV ranges. WLTP figures banded about when reality is so far different in many cases.
The used market is very different to the new market that's so geared up to tax incentives and or Motab. Plummeting depreciation just shows how unvalued many used ev are too the second hand market & how far off the mark cars are to the market.
Even up the tax incentives for used, business and personal. Even up the vat on public/private chargers making it fairer for those who would have to only public charge. So much renewable energy has built on the back of incentives yet the output isn't.
Destination chargers, I've just spent two weeks staying at different premier Inns for work, only one had ev chargers on site! Even just freshly built ones. Utterly bonkers.
The used market is very different to the new market that's so geared up to tax incentives and or Motab. Plummeting depreciation just shows how unvalued many used ev are too the second hand market & how far off the mark cars are to the market.
Even up the tax incentives for used, business and personal. Even up the vat on public/private chargers making it fairer for those who would have to only public charge. So much renewable energy has built on the back of incentives yet the output isn't.
Destination chargers, I've just spent two weeks staying at different premier Inns for work, only one had ev chargers on site! Even just freshly built ones. Utterly bonkers.
AlexNJ89 said:
But those who look for a used car are less likely to be able to afford the luxury of off-road parking therefore there is a much bigger gap in demand for 2-3 year old EVs than there are for ICEs so the depreciation with always be more significant.
Yes that's fantastic news for used EV buyers as the market has taken its toll at 3/4 years old and that depreciation should level off from there.plfrench said:
Yes, but remember, neither of you actually want one. It says so in the title.
No it doesn't. The title referred to dealers not wanting to take EVs in part exchange. Like all EV threads this one has gone way off the original topic into the usual EVs are rubbish v oh no they're not argument. cptsideways said:
I have to agree the manufacturer's are not designing what punters want on the whole. Massively over complicated products & over priced, too big or impractical, too smaller range real world range, massively inefficient SUV ranges. WLTP figures banded about when reality is so far different in many cases.
I think a lot of that is the general introduction of EVs from the top end of the price range, because the technology was too expensive for cheaper cars. As the prices of batteries are falling and manufacturers are introducing cheaper electric models this should fade away.nickfrog said:
Yes that's fantastic news for used EV buyers as the market has taken its toll at 3/4 years old and that depreciation should level off from there.
But the point is that there aren't enough of those used EV buyers to level off the market.In my mind a used EV buyer isn't going to be someone who has any incentive to buy new, therefore looking to the used market.
If they look to the used market it means there is a budget they have to shop with, what budget would that be? In my mind anything up to £35k.
Then anyone looking for a £35k car very rarely has some form of off-road parking.
I'm using specific numbers which you may argue with, but I'm trying to generalise an entire market segment with those figures and circumstances.
If you feel like I'm wrong, let me know what you would suggest as the "customer profile" of a 3/4 used EV buyer to be as it would give a good indication of where we disagree.
AlexNJ89 said:
Then anyone looking for a £35k car very rarely has some form of off-road parking.
I think you're way off on the price point at which the lack of off-road parking kicks in, though it will be very geographically variable. I think in most areas the people who don't have off road parking because they can't afford it are looking at the shed end of the market. AlexNJ89 said:
nickfrog said:
Yes that's fantastic news for used EV buyers as the market has taken its toll at 3/4 years old and that depreciation should level off from there.
But the point is that there aren't enough of those used EV buyers to level off the market.In my mind a used EV buyer isn't going to be someone who has any incentive to buy new, therefore looking to the used market.
If they look to the used market it means there is a budget they have to shop with, what budget would that be? In my mind anything up to £35k.
Then anyone looking for a £35k car very rarely has some form of off-road parking.
I'm using specific numbers which you may argue with, but I'm trying to generalise an entire market segment with those figures and circumstances.
If you feel like I'm wrong, let me know what you would suggest as the "customer profile" of a 3/4 used EV buyer to be as it would give a good indication of where we disagree.
otolith said:
AlexNJ89 said:
Then anyone looking for a £35k car very rarely has some form of off-road parking.
I think you're way off on the price point at which the lack of off-road parking kicks in, though it will be very geographically variable. I think in most areas the people who don't have off road parking because they can't afford it are looking at the shed end of the market. However across the nation there is plentiful upmarket housing including new developments where there may be off street parking but not located so as to provide a home charger station. Examples are blocks of apartments, converted large houses into rather nice flats, and even modern developments where parking is away from the principal residence in allocated spaces.
Then you have places where planning constraints prevent converting space to create parking, quick search on rightmove showed places that have been sold in such an urban area that I know well, many at 750k highest in 2022 at 1.2 million. These people are not buying cars at shed end of the market. This is not London but in a West Midlands county town. Again not too far from there a developer is selling new 2 bed tiny townhouses with no parking actually at the property but set away in a shared car park. 300k+ for a property with a ground plan area roughly that of a holiday caravan. Realise London crowd might think what a bargain at the above prices.
otolith said:
I think you're way off on the price point at which the lack of off-road parking kicks in, though it will be very geographically variable. I think in most areas the people who don't have off road parking because they can't afford it are looking at the shed end of the market.
I think it depends where you are living. Not all these types of houses are in poverty areas. As for used car prices, my mate is fairly well off and he said he'd never buy a used car over £25k. He's just bought a used EV for £19k and is more than happy to spend that. Whereas myself, I've looking at buying a used EV no more than £15k. So it's all relative really on what people have to spare. I know a lot of people who only ever buy new cars and some who solely buy sheds, to which one has just bought an old Leaf to see if she likes the EV life.
Even looking now on Autotrader there are 7000 EVs (up to 100k miles) for less than £20k and no older than 2010. Comparing that to all Petrol and diesel cars in the same price, age and mileage, they have 205k available to pick from. That's a huge difference in what is available for people.
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