EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
sixor8 said:
The ramp is too steep. From no compulsory sales to 22% in one go is too fast. I wonder if they'll 'review' this and drop it to 20%, or let them carry over for a year. Probably not after the election result next week.
It is a bit suspicious that manufactures are not making more of a concerted effort to achieve the ZEV mandates for this year, given the size of the fines and how far short they are. Maybe they have been tipped off that a 'review' of the rules is underway...?EddieSteadyGo said:
sixor8 said:
The ramp is too steep. From no compulsory sales to 22% in one go is too fast. I wonder if they'll 'review' this and drop it to 20%, or let them carry over for a year. Probably not after the election result next week.
It is a bit suspicious that manufactures are not making more of a concerted effort to achieve the ZEV mandates for this year, given the size of the fines and how far short they are. Maybe they have been tipped off that a 'review' of the rules is underway...?I was going to place a bet, but then I realised I'm not entitled to, because I'm not a candidate ...
Very good!
sixor8 said:
The ramp is too steep. From no compulsory sales to 22% in one go is too fast. I wonder if they'll 'review' this and drop it to 20%, or let them carry over for a year. Probably not after the election result next week.
They’re already allowed to defer to subsequent years but they’ll need to catch up the deficit and there is a time limit to how long they can defer for. Renault, for example, will walk it once full production and sales of the R5 is underway. I wouldn’t have thought they’d have any problem making up any ‘24 shortfall with next year’s performance, despite having to get to 28% next year. Vauxhall have knocked a huge amount off the Astra EV - I had a promotional email come through from Pentagon group this week offering £17k off the £37k list price. VW offering £5k dealer contributions of ID3, etc. Sounds like they’re beginning to try now.
plfrench said:
They’re already allowed to defer to subsequent years but they’ll need to catch up the deficit and there is a time limit to how long they can defer for. Renault, for example, will walk it once full production and sales of the R5 is underway. I wouldn’t have thought they’d have any problem making up any ‘24 shortfall with next year’s performance, despite having to get to 28% next year.
Vauxhall have knocked a huge amount off the Astra EV - I had a promotional email come through from Pentagon group this week offering £17k off the £37k list price. VW offering £5k dealer contributions of ID3, etc. Sounds like they’re beginning to try now.
The R5 imo has limited appeal. Expensive (in real-world configurations) and competes mainly on its retro looks. When it comes down to customers committing their money, I think most will pick a different car.Vauxhall have knocked a huge amount off the Astra EV - I had a promotional email come through from Pentagon group this week offering £17k off the £37k list price. VW offering £5k dealer contributions of ID3, etc. Sounds like they’re beginning to try now.
But even assuming that is true, I would have expected more effort at this point of the year from mainstream manufactures to hit the ZEV mandate. I seriously wonder if they know the rules are going to get diluted.
EddieSteadyGo said:
The R5 imo has limited appeal. Expensive (in real-world configurations) and competes mainly on its retro looks. When it comes down to customers committing their money, I think most will pick a different car.
But even assuming that is true, I would have expected more effort at this point of the year from mainstream manufactures to hit the ZEV mandate. I seriously wonder if they know the rules are going to get diluted.
There would likely be the mother of all court cases against the government from manufacturers who had geared themselves up and are well on track to hit the targets though, like BMW. I think it’s a bit late to go changing the rules of the game at this stage - the time for that would have been before leaving the go square on 1st Jan IMO.But even assuming that is true, I would have expected more effort at this point of the year from mainstream manufactures to hit the ZEV mandate. I seriously wonder if they know the rules are going to get diluted.
There’s a lot more to the scheme too such as trading ZEV credit for over performance against fleet emission average. Apparently the minimum that a manufacturer can achieve to avoid fines this year will be 5.5% if they max out on all the various rules they can play with:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/z...
Edited by plfrench on Wednesday 26th June 23:50
plfrench said:
...
There’s a lot more to the scheme too such as trading ZEV credit for over performance against fleet emission average. Apparently the minimum that a manufacturer can achieve to avoid fines this year will be 5.5% if they max out on all the various rules they can play with:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/z...
...
Fair enough. It's sounds like there is important nuance in the legislation I've previously missed, like buying credits, as mentioned in the article, to help offset the need to sell more EVs in the short term. There’s a lot more to the scheme too such as trading ZEV credit for over performance against fleet emission average. Apparently the minimum that a manufacturer can achieve to avoid fines this year will be 5.5% if they max out on all the various rules they can play with:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/z...
...
Ankh87 said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/06/25/va...
Seems like Vauxhall is finding it hard to sell EVs so looking for a way out or some moneys from Government. Wonder if the others will follow.
I'm not a fan of any Vauxhall EV but previous generations were half decent.
It's a genuine problem for the sub brands as their core client base don't need to be considering switching to EV for one to two decades and many simply can't yet but as a car manufacturer they're tied to the same rules as the more premium branded manufacturers who can. They're also much more exposed to the competition risk from more competent EV manufacturers outside of the EU. Seems like Vauxhall is finding it hard to sell EVs so looking for a way out or some moneys from Government. Wonder if the others will follow.
I'm not a fan of any Vauxhall EV but previous generations were half decent.
It also doesn't help that Stellantis have to date made a complete hash of their EV policy over the last decade by refusing to recognise the need to start investing in both raw material advance procurement as well as technology. They've been a bit of a poster boy for declining to accept that the business of making and selling EVs is actually different to that of making ICE vehicles.
When we look at the European non premium brands the one that stands out as having lead a competent business strategy heading into this legislative defined era of change has to be Renault. Arguably helped by having an Asian partner that brings a wiser dynamic to the Board but Renault face the exact same big problem of having a core and important client demographic that has no need or desire to switch to EV for years to come but have been investing seemingly quite intelligently into the EV market and solutions that will help them transition safely.
Stellantis is burdened with US brands that have little consumer desire for EV but they do have Fiat and Peugeot which are brands that people who would like to switch to EV this decade do appeal to in the way Renault does. While Stellantis has made a fist of their EV investment due to Americans on the board and preferring to spend the time infighting for positions within what is a fiasco of recently wedged together businesses arguably the real and specific problem here is the Vauxhall brand?
What purpose or value does the word 'Vauxhall' have?
It is a word that is stuck onto the back of cheap German cars to trick elderly and dim witted Britons into thinking they aren't buying some stinky foreign crap. Potentially the exact same demographic that is apoplectically terrified by electricity, non Trumpian governments and foreign people. Vauxhall is just the next Rover except it doesn't even make anything. Probably not even the stickers they slap over the German 'Opel' stickers?
The quick and simple solution to all of Vauxhall's problems is to just cease to exist. Its only true value to Stellantis lies in being a vehicle with which to extort British taxpayer funds to subsidise German factory worker salaries.
It's time to call the vet and do the right thing.
plfrench said:
There would likely be the mother of all court cases against the government from manufacturers who had geared themselves up and are well on track to hit the targets though, like BMW. I think it’s a bit late to go changing the rules of the game at this stage - the time for that would have been before leaving the go square on 1st Jan IMO.
There’s a lot more to the scheme too such as trading ZEV credit for over performance against fleet emission average. Apparently the minimum that a manufacturer can achieve to avoid fines this year will be 5.5% if they max out on all the various rules they can play with:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/z...
Thanks for the link. So, those it concerns are ahead of me and there is a lot flexibility in the system.There’s a lot more to the scheme too such as trading ZEV credit for over performance against fleet emission average. Apparently the minimum that a manufacturer can achieve to avoid fines this year will be 5.5% if they max out on all the various rules they can play with:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/z...
The fact that "overperformance on CO2 reduction" can reduce the requirement too, but interestingly:
"Manufacturers that sell fewer than 2500 cars in the UK per year are exempt from the ZEV mandate and manufacturers that sell fewer than 1000 are also exempt from the CO2 regulations."
So Morgan can carry on, and all the other small niche ones too can carry on with pure ICE right up to 2034 then jump straight to EV when tech will be no doubt leaps ahead of now. This may be 2029 if Labour re-impose that deadline. That or simply close.
I have an EV, I think it's great, but I have ICE too. Mandating them into production seems trickier than originally planned.
Edited by sixor8 on Thursday 27th June 07:56
survivalist said:
plfrench said:
Yes, but remember, neither of you actually want one. It says so in the title.
Easy to be smug. But the numbers still broadly support the OPs allegation.New EV sales are struggling to get anywhere close to the ZEV mandate and lack of secondhand sales are contributing to some pretty high levels of depreciation.
The number of people actually new EVs are vanishingly small, even compared to people buying new cars in general.
That said, our EV is great for local trips. Doesn’t make financial sense compare to a small ICE though,
There is also a rapidly growing subculture of EV-denial, all meme fuelled. The number of "facts" people trot out that they got from their facebook feed (EVs catch fire; EVs aren't actually more green, etc etc) is scary, but guess not surprising. Middle men thick as mince hate any notion of government telling them what to do, and "research" for many is clicking on whatever an algorithm puts in front of them next.
And you have the simultaneous effect of the first lease and BiK cars being dumped onto the market, but much more obsolete vs. the cars that replace them than would be the case were these ICE cars. Hurting used values more, making these a very difficult choice to justify as a private purchase.
It's going to flush out though. Many of same bellends who form opinions based social media were banging on about 5G a few years back, which has gone away. And the underlying product *and* the ease of use are genuinely good for the majority of car owners i think.... and ultimately for dull transport, that will win through. I'm still waiting to see the first public charging station with a queue this year.... but apparently "we don't have the charging infrastructure"
So people want them - just not at the rate the targets expect them to want EVs, and not at the rate that can handle various other economic and supply/demand factors out there.
DonkeyApple said:
It's a genuine problem for the sub brands as their core client base don't need to be considering switching to EV for one to two decades and many simply can't yet but as a car manufacturer they're tied to the same rules as the more premium branded manufacturers who can. They're also much more exposed to the competition risk from more competent EV manufacturers outside of the EU.
It also doesn't help that Stellantis have to date made a complete hash of their EV policy over the last decade by refusing to recognise the need to start investing in both raw material advance procurement as well as technology. They've been a bit of a poster boy for declining to accept that the business of making and selling EVs is actually different to that of making ICE vehicles.
When we look at the European non premium brands the one that stands out as having lead a competent business strategy heading into this legislative defined era of change has to be Renault. Arguably helped by having an Asian partner that brings a wiser dynamic to the Board but Renault face the exact same big problem of having a core and important client demographic that has no need or desire to switch to EV for years to come but have been investing seemingly quite intelligently into the EV market and solutions that will help them transition safely.
Stellantis is burdened with US brands that have little consumer desire for EV but they do have Fiat and Peugeot which are brands that people who would like to switch to EV this decade do appeal to in the way Renault does. While Stellantis has made a fist of their EV investment due to Americans on the board and preferring to spend the time infighting for positions within what is a fiasco of recently wedged together businesses arguably the real and specific problem here is the Vauxhall brand?
What purpose or value does the word 'Vauxhall' have?
It is a word that is stuck onto the back of cheap German cars to trick elderly and dim witted Britons into thinking they aren't buying some stinky foreign crap. Potentially the exact same demographic that is apoplectically terrified by electricity, non Trumpian governments and foreign people. Vauxhall is just the next Rover except it doesn't even make anything. Probably not even the stickers they slap over the German 'Opel' stickers?
The quick and simple solution to all of Vauxhall's problems is to just cease to exist. Its only true value to Stellantis lies in being a vehicle with which to extort British taxpayer funds to subsidise German factory worker salaries.
It's time to call the vet and do the right thing.
Vauxhall have two car plants in the UK making cars.It also doesn't help that Stellantis have to date made a complete hash of their EV policy over the last decade by refusing to recognise the need to start investing in both raw material advance procurement as well as technology. They've been a bit of a poster boy for declining to accept that the business of making and selling EVs is actually different to that of making ICE vehicles.
When we look at the European non premium brands the one that stands out as having lead a competent business strategy heading into this legislative defined era of change has to be Renault. Arguably helped by having an Asian partner that brings a wiser dynamic to the Board but Renault face the exact same big problem of having a core and important client demographic that has no need or desire to switch to EV for years to come but have been investing seemingly quite intelligently into the EV market and solutions that will help them transition safely.
Stellantis is burdened with US brands that have little consumer desire for EV but they do have Fiat and Peugeot which are brands that people who would like to switch to EV this decade do appeal to in the way Renault does. While Stellantis has made a fist of their EV investment due to Americans on the board and preferring to spend the time infighting for positions within what is a fiasco of recently wedged together businesses arguably the real and specific problem here is the Vauxhall brand?
What purpose or value does the word 'Vauxhall' have?
It is a word that is stuck onto the back of cheap German cars to trick elderly and dim witted Britons into thinking they aren't buying some stinky foreign crap. Potentially the exact same demographic that is apoplectically terrified by electricity, non Trumpian governments and foreign people. Vauxhall is just the next Rover except it doesn't even make anything. Probably not even the stickers they slap over the German 'Opel' stickers?
The quick and simple solution to all of Vauxhall's problems is to just cease to exist. Its only true value to Stellantis lies in being a vehicle with which to extort British taxpayer funds to subsidise German factory worker salaries.
It's time to call the vet and do the right thing.
It's a solid well trusted brand, the oldest surviving UK car manufacturer.
There are many people who are happy with owning Vauxhall cars.
sixor8 said:
plfrench said:
There would likely be the mother of all court cases against the government from manufacturers who had geared themselves up and are well on track to hit the targets though, like BMW. I think it’s a bit late to go changing the rules of the game at this stage - the time for that would have been before leaving the go square on 1st Jan IMO.
There’s a lot more to the scheme too such as trading ZEV credit for over performance against fleet emission average. Apparently the minimum that a manufacturer can achieve to avoid fines this year will be 5.5% if they max out on all the various rules they can play with:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/z...
Thanks for the link. So, those it concerns are ahead of me and there is a lot flexibility in the system.There’s a lot more to the scheme too such as trading ZEV credit for over performance against fleet emission average. Apparently the minimum that a manufacturer can achieve to avoid fines this year will be 5.5% if they max out on all the various rules they can play with:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/z...
The fact that "overperformance on CO2 reduction" can reduce the requirement too, but interestingly:
"Manufacturers that sell fewer than 2500 cars in the UK per year are exempt from the ZEV mandate and manufacturers that sell fewer than 1000 are also exempt from the CO2 regulations."
So Morgan can carry on, and all the other small niche ones too can carry on with pure ICE right up to 2034 then jump straight to EV when tech will be no doubt leaps ahead of now. This may be 2029 if Labour re-impose that deadline. That or simply close.
I have an EV, I think it's great, but I have ICE too. Mandating them into production seems trickier than originally planned.
Edited by sixor8 on Thursday 27th June 07:56
GT9 said:
M4cruiser said:
GT9 said:
Not just any Avensis though, but the much-loved 'Auto' which, if I'm not mistaken, is diesel only.
You are mistaken.Or are we calling the CVT an auto?
And that was only on a diesel ?
732NM said:
DonkeyApple said:
It's a genuine problem for the sub brands as their core client base don't need to be considering switching to EV for one to two decades and many simply can't yet but as a car manufacturer they're tied to the same rules as the more premium branded manufacturers who can. They're also much more exposed to the competition risk from more competent EV manufacturers outside of the EU.
It also doesn't help that Stellantis have to date made a complete hash of their EV policy over the last decade by refusing to recognise the need to start investing in both raw material advance procurement as well as technology. They've been a bit of a poster boy for declining to accept that the business of making and selling EVs is actually different to that of making ICE vehicles.
When we look at the European non premium brands the one that stands out as having lead a competent business strategy heading into this legislative defined era of change has to be Renault. Arguably helped by having an Asian partner that brings a wiser dynamic to the Board but Renault face the exact same big problem of having a core and important client demographic that has no need or desire to switch to EV for years to come but have been investing seemingly quite intelligently into the EV market and solutions that will help them transition safely.
Stellantis is burdened with US brands that have little consumer desire for EV but they do have Fiat and Peugeot which are brands that people who would like to switch to EV this decade do appeal to in the way Renault does. While Stellantis has made a fist of their EV investment due to Americans on the board and preferring to spend the time infighting for positions within what is a fiasco of recently wedged together businesses arguably the real and specific problem here is the Vauxhall brand?
What purpose or value does the word 'Vauxhall' have?
It is a word that is stuck onto the back of cheap German cars to trick elderly and dim witted Britons into thinking they aren't buying some stinky foreign crap. Potentially the exact same demographic that is apoplectically terrified by electricity, non Trumpian governments and foreign people. Vauxhall is just the next Rover except it doesn't even make anything. Probably not even the stickers they slap over the German 'Opel' stickers?
The quick and simple solution to all of Vauxhall's problems is to just cease to exist. Its only true value to Stellantis lies in being a vehicle with which to extort British taxpayer funds to subsidise German factory worker salaries.
It's time to call the vet and do the right thing.
Vauxhall have two car plants in the UK making cars.It also doesn't help that Stellantis have to date made a complete hash of their EV policy over the last decade by refusing to recognise the need to start investing in both raw material advance procurement as well as technology. They've been a bit of a poster boy for declining to accept that the business of making and selling EVs is actually different to that of making ICE vehicles.
When we look at the European non premium brands the one that stands out as having lead a competent business strategy heading into this legislative defined era of change has to be Renault. Arguably helped by having an Asian partner that brings a wiser dynamic to the Board but Renault face the exact same big problem of having a core and important client demographic that has no need or desire to switch to EV for years to come but have been investing seemingly quite intelligently into the EV market and solutions that will help them transition safely.
Stellantis is burdened with US brands that have little consumer desire for EV but they do have Fiat and Peugeot which are brands that people who would like to switch to EV this decade do appeal to in the way Renault does. While Stellantis has made a fist of their EV investment due to Americans on the board and preferring to spend the time infighting for positions within what is a fiasco of recently wedged together businesses arguably the real and specific problem here is the Vauxhall brand?
What purpose or value does the word 'Vauxhall' have?
It is a word that is stuck onto the back of cheap German cars to trick elderly and dim witted Britons into thinking they aren't buying some stinky foreign crap. Potentially the exact same demographic that is apoplectically terrified by electricity, non Trumpian governments and foreign people. Vauxhall is just the next Rover except it doesn't even make anything. Probably not even the stickers they slap over the German 'Opel' stickers?
The quick and simple solution to all of Vauxhall's problems is to just cease to exist. Its only true value to Stellantis lies in being a vehicle with which to extort British taxpayer funds to subsidise German factory worker salaries.
It's time to call the vet and do the right thing.
It's a solid well trusted brand, the oldest surviving UK car manufacturer.
There are many people who are happy with owning Vauxhall cars.
However the open sharing of parts across brands and models gives difficulty in differentiating brands. Yet they still manage to do it, for example the Vx/Opel Astra cabin completely eclipses the Peugeot i-cabin arrangement. But that's subjective and some love the Pug design so very personal.
But as far as Vx vs Opel, frankly I don't give a stuff with either badge. Although there would be some upset about dropping Vx brand, and some celebrating possibly because Clarkson once said something rude about a Vectra.
I too got a mail offering me a top spec delivery miles Astra Estate EV, sorry Sports Tourer for 33k, OTR comedy price 46k+.
Agree with DA that the main stream legacy manufacturer of normal vehicles that seem to have their act together is Renault.
732NM said:
Vauxhall have two car plants in the UK making cars.
It's a solid well trusted brand, the oldest surviving UK car manufacturer.
There are many people who are happy with owning Vauxhall cars.
Yep, I've got an Insignia and does the daily job perfectly and more when needed. All I do is maintain the car and seems to be fine. Granted there aren't many people dreaming of owning a Vauxhall but for a cheap and cheerful car, they are fine. It's a solid well trusted brand, the oldest surviving UK car manufacturer.
There are many people who are happy with owning Vauxhall cars.
I don't like the looks of their EVs but looks are subjective as others might do. End of the day Vauxhall is one of the most common brands in the UK and if they are struggling to sell EVs, then it says a lot.
I'm all for electric and seriously considering to get a used one next year if the price is right. I'm thinking though if other manufacturers are finding it difficult as well, how long until this zero mandate thing is pushed back even further?
732NM said:
Vauxhall have two car plants in the UK making cars.
It's a solid well trusted brand, the oldest surviving UK car manufacturer.
There are many people who are happy with owning Vauxhall cars.
Ellesmere stopped making ICE cars back in 2022. It's a solid well trusted brand, the oldest surviving UK car manufacturer.
There are many people who are happy with owning Vauxhall cars.
Luton stopped making cars in 2002.
Corsa - built in Span.
Astra - built in Germany.
Grandland - Germany
Mokka - France
Insignia - Germany.
All that is going on at Stellantis is the usual threats from an overseas firm to British Government to give them more free tax payer's money to assemble German parts in the U.K. rather than somewhere else. Honda got told to F off and go and ply their protection racket shakedown elsewhere and there's no real need for us to be doing much different to Stellantis.
The brand in the U.K. has been in decline with every cold winter and is nothing more than a rebadging exercise today in reality. And the brand sits on the wrong side of the customer demographic for new EV purchases and will do for quite some time. The harsh reality is that if one has a driveway, the lifestyle and the means to purchase a non essential EV then one isn't going to be visiting Vauxhall.
The brand has a genuine dilemma as its core client demographic has absolutely no need and potentially no desire to be considering an EV switch for years to come yet. So do we as the taxpayer want to be having our money given to an overseas firm for a decade or more to tide them over or do we actually want to do the sensible thing and point out to this company that we are the customer and if they can't deliver the required product at the required price then that is not our problem or anything to do with us and that the German and Dutch taxpayer, along with the Americans can bankroll their own company and their own problem?
The U.K. paid the heavy price of de-industrialisation and the dismantling of our domestic car business 30 years ago. It's not our responsibility to now be picking up the tab for overseas firms.
Ankh87 said:
I'm all for electric and seriously considering to get a used one next year if the price is right. I'm thinking though if other manufacturers are finding it difficult as well, how long until this zero mandate thing is pushed back even further?
It’s only just been introduced and never been pushed back. The manufacturers who have sold vehicles in the UK since 1st Jan this year have essentially contracted to comply with the rules of the game which were laid out for them to see. As I said earlier, you cannot just change the rules after the game has started.
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