EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
GT9 said:
driveaway said:
I never said it wasn't released, look at what I wrote instead of scanning for ignorant picks.
In fact, I acknowledged that it was revealed long ago, and in fact was invented on paper around a hundred years ago, but climate change was not a religion yet at the time, and therefore the oil cartels were not interested in it.
Now that that is the trend, it was revealed as a failure, it wasn't revealed and then turned out to be a failure, rather it's portrayal from its revealing was in a light that portrayed it as a failure, which guaranteed that the ones making the money whether from the oil directly (i.e. petrol diesel) or indirectly (i.e. "ethical" electricity), can remain money making undisturbed, with not a care in the world about pollution.
This is not about climate change denial, it is about why they were not interested until now, because they do not mean our good, it all comes down to money.
Hydrogen, and I mean, proper, renewable, green hydrogen doesn't exist in the UK. In fact, I acknowledged that it was revealed long ago, and in fact was invented on paper around a hundred years ago, but climate change was not a religion yet at the time, and therefore the oil cartels were not interested in it.
Now that that is the trend, it was revealed as a failure, it wasn't revealed and then turned out to be a failure, rather it's portrayal from its revealing was in a light that portrayed it as a failure, which guaranteed that the ones making the money whether from the oil directly (i.e. petrol diesel) or indirectly (i.e. "ethical" electricity), can remain money making undisturbed, with not a care in the world about pollution.
This is not about climate change denial, it is about why they were not interested until now, because they do not mean our good, it all comes down to money.
It doesn't exist now and it wont exist in sufficient quantities for decades.
By sufficient quantities, I mean enough green hydrogen to decarbonise existing consumers, enough to supply the sectors where batteries are more problematic and enough to touch the sides on a sector as large as passenger cars.
Blue hydrogen hasn't got a hope in hell of demonstrating low carbon sustainability, firstly because it obviously isn't sustainable and secondly because the whole CCS thing would be a lot cheaper and easier to do straight from the atmosphere.
And then we don't need any hydrogen, or any batteries, we just keep burning petrol...
For hydrogen to be of any use to cars it has to be green hydrogen.
Yet green hydrogen consumes electricity at three times the rate of EVs for the same number of cars.
So where are all the extra wind turbines to cope with that, over and above what EVs require?
Where are all the electrolysers to turn all that extra electricity into hydrogen?
That's right, they don't exist.
They don't exist because no-one is going to pay for them to be built and installed.
And no-one is going to pay to operate them.
Your dream is built on sand, I genuinely don't think you have any idea about the actual amount of extra electricity that is required and the number of electrolysers required.
The only reason anyone would ever try to combine green hydrogen and cars, would be if you absolutely have no other choice.
You would never do it otherwise, because the cost, both upfront and ongoing, is colossal.
We don't fit into that group now, and we wont ever be in that group.
So yes, it does come down to money, money we don't have, and money we don't even need to spend.
Let's say I'm wrong though, and we magic up some means of supplying cheap and plentiful renewable electricity and hundreds of thousands of electrolysers fall out of the sky.
Next problem.
The hydrogen tanks in the cars.
Each car consumes up to 100 kg of high grade carbon fibre composites.
The present day global capacity for carbon fibre is 100,000 metric tons.
So even if every fibre anywhere in the world was dedicated to hydrogen passenger cars, that's about 1 million cars per annum.
Maybe a bit more.
1 million cars globally, about 1-2% of new cars.
Are they ALL coming to the UK?
And guess what, it means no more composite aircraft, no more composite F1 cars, no more composite fishing rods, no more drones, no more skis, etc, etc.
Oh, and no more wind turbines...
Absolutely brilliant, a plan only Baldrick would be proud of.
Jk89 said:
EV’s only work for older, retired people.
90% of plug in hybrids are a joke including the one I had for 3 years.
30 mile electric range is actually 10 miles.
Takes 6 hours to charge for 10 miles.
Ridiculous.
ICE is going nowhere.
What about all the people who aren't old and retired that have them? How about the taxi drivers that use then?90% of plug in hybrids are a joke including the one I had for 3 years.
30 mile electric range is actually 10 miles.
Takes 6 hours to charge for 10 miles.
Ridiculous.
ICE is going nowhere.
When I ordered a Model 3 I was doing 30-40000 miles a year.
driveaway said:
wevster said:
Where is the infrastructure for Hydrogen?
Sorry to mention, but so long as the EV market doesn't go into a long term lull - meaning that until the interest in it [EV's] dies down and just becomes part of all the other vehicle types on the market, hydrogen won't be put on the market as a major part of the vehicle industry, because it will damage the pockets of those in it for the money.Remember when we were told that everyone should be driving a diesel car because it is better for the environment, and once people were fully hooked and it was widespread, they turned around and said no, actually petrol is better, but electric is the best?
Just wait, they'll do something similar with hydrogen.
That's their way of balancing the market, so that there will always be fresh sale possibilities.
The same with technology companies, and basically any other industry around.
People think that when - say Apple- brings out a new smartphone with new tech, they just 'discovered' it and are quickly rolling it out to the world. Not at all, they have the tech lined up for years before, and slowly drip-drop release it to the public, instead of coming out one day with a brand new phone totally revamped containing every piece of new tech they have and then after they don't have anything left in their arsenal to keep up production because it is already out there, they slowly release it, same here.
The tech for hydrogen, electric and others have been around for ages, but they weren't interested because they were still making heavy money off the older types, so they were not interested to destroy it by bringing out something "revolutionary"....
You can buy a hydrogen car now. Toyota are virtually giving them away in the US.
DonkeyApple said:
Dumb and dumber
You just know that somehow we are going to try shoehorn this stuff into unsuspecting punter's cars anyway.Now we have problem no. 3.
In an accident where a car's hydrogen tank/s are crushed, for example a truck ploughing into the back of a stationary line of traffic, if this occurs in a tunnel, the carnage that has been modelled is going to hit global headlines.
The rapidly expanding 10,000 psi hydrogen gas will explode instantly with almost 100% certainty. The explosion is over in milliseconds but the energy release rate is so high that the pressure wave sent also the tunnel is likely to injure people up to 300 metres away. Within 30 metres, no-one is expected to survive the 2000C fireball, for those lucky enough to survive that, they will be stretchered out with damage to their lungs and eardrums, and any body cavities where the pressure wave can do its damage. How many cars and people can you fit into 300 metres of tunnel?
samoht said:
I note that prices of Cupra Borns seem to have stabilised somewhat at c.£20k entry point.
In my e-C4 I've had one aborted public charge out of eight, I just moved to the next charger in the bank and plugged in and it then charged fine. I was on 10% battery so probably pulling near the maximum current. So it's not been a big issue for me.
Ironically I'm looking to change it for a Born sometime in the next 12 months, not if they won't charge reliably though!
Very interesting thank you.cptsideways said:
Though the CCS Comms protocols is standard many brands seem to struggle with the concept. The problem always occur at the plugging in stage or SOC/kWh input, so you either get a no go like above or you get a very slow charge or none at all. Ipace is a common offender and lots of VW offerings.
Of course the number of dudd chargers is a massive issue too especially when the might be one at the location.
David Twohig (Inside the Machine) gives a really interesting run-down of the challenges of this when developing the Zoe. Basically the car has to be really careful about any leakage current, since it could potentially be 'leaking' to earth via a person, which would be bad. So it has to abort the charge if it detects any current leakage, however this safety mechanism can also suffer a false positive due to various kinds of electromagnetic interference, poor ground on the charger, phase offsets etc. So making an EV which reliably charges at all public chargers, but also reliably stops charging if a person's being electrocuted, is hard.Of course the number of dudd chargers is a massive issue too especially when the might be one at the location.
In my e-C4 I've had one aborted public charge out of eight, I just moved to the next charger in the bank and plugged in and it then charged fine. I was on 10% battery so probably pulling near the maximum current. So it's not been a big issue for me.
Ironically I'm looking to change it for a Born sometime in the next 12 months, not if they won't charge reliably though!
Why does it vary so much though?
For example with my KIA (EV6) I’ve never seen this problem despite using multiple brands of DC charger over nearly 2 years.
What are KIA doing differently do you think?
GT9 said:
You just know that somehow we are going to try shoehorn this stuff into unsuspecting punter's cars anyway.
Now we have problem no. 3.
In an accident where a car's hydrogen tank/s are crushed, for example a truck ploughing into the back of a stationary line of traffic, if this occurs in a tunnel, the carnage that has been modelled is going to hit global headlines.
The rapidly expanding 10,000 psi hydrogen gas will explode instantly with almost 100% certainty. The explosion is over in milliseconds but the energy release rate is so high that the pressure wave sent also the tunnel is likely to injure people up to 300 metres away. Within 30 metres, no-one is expected to survive the 2000C fireball, for those lucky enough to survive that, they will be stretchered out with damage to their lungs and eardrums, and any body cavities where the pressure wave can do its damage. How many cars and people can you fit into 300 metres of tunnel?
There's no point to be honest. It's just become a devout belief for the CT people. It's the messiah to rescue us from the devil that is electricity. It's the gaseous Nigel Farage to rescue society from liberal EVs. The gas can't be mentioned without the programmed potato saying 'Evangelist' in the same of following sentence. Now we have problem no. 3.
In an accident where a car's hydrogen tank/s are crushed, for example a truck ploughing into the back of a stationary line of traffic, if this occurs in a tunnel, the carnage that has been modelled is going to hit global headlines.
The rapidly expanding 10,000 psi hydrogen gas will explode instantly with almost 100% certainty. The explosion is over in milliseconds but the energy release rate is so high that the pressure wave sent also the tunnel is likely to injure people up to 300 metres away. Within 30 metres, no-one is expected to survive the 2000C fireball, for those lucky enough to survive that, they will be stretchered out with damage to their lungs and eardrums, and any body cavities where the pressure wave can do its damage. How many cars and people can you fit into 300 metres of tunnel?
It's flat earthing at the end of the day. The total denial of reality and science while adopting the devout belief of gurus and messiahs. Which does lead to political extremism which is why so many have objectified a car with batteries as being their devil.
Meanwhile, on the mainland, those nations which border Russia have clung to the concept of hydrogen out of abject fear as some magical thing to save them from the Bear.
We are very obviously just going to keep using petrol for the next 30-40 years and keep that pre existing infrastructure working. Meanwhile, we're going to keep building our renewables and keep selling the excess production at point of creation because it is the most profitable way to deal with an excess for a nation in the unique position of the U.K. of having very high wind production capabilities, very energy resource poor affluent neighbours a few miles away and a natural gas supply in our doorstep to fall back on as the energy backbone.
And yet nutters are wetting their pants about needing to store electricity like it's guns and spam for their mentalist prepper's apocalypse next Thursday.
JD said:
Olivera said:
So it's summer roadtrip time and hence it's lovely to have ICE 600 mile range. No nerdish faffery looking for or worrying about chargers.
It sounds like you do more worrying about EV charging than people who own them do.What's the saying, living in your head rent free?
Each to their own though. I'm ok stopping every 3 hours for a stretch, coffee and a pee.
May i suggest getting one of these if you haven't got one already.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Urine-Bottle-Portable-Uri...
DonkeyApple said:
GT9 said:
You just know that somehow we are going to try shoehorn this stuff into unsuspecting punter's cars anyway.
Now we have problem no. 3.
In an accident where a car's hydrogen tank/s are crushed, for example a truck ploughing into the back of a stationary line of traffic, if this occurs in a tunnel, the carnage that has been modelled is going to hit global headlines.
The rapidly expanding 10,000 psi hydrogen gas will explode instantly with almost 100% certainty. The explosion is over in milliseconds but the energy release rate is so high that the pressure wave sent also the tunnel is likely to injure people up to 300 metres away. Within 30 metres, no-one is expected to survive the 2000C fireball, for those lucky enough to survive that, they will be stretchered out with damage to their lungs and eardrums, and any body cavities where the pressure wave can do its damage. How many cars and people can you fit into 300 metres of tunnel?
There's no point to be honest. It's just become a devout belief for the CT people. It's the messiah to rescue us from the devil that is electricity. It's the gaseous Nigel Farage to rescue society from liberal EVs. The gas can't be mentioned without the programmed potato saying 'Evangelist' in the same of following sentence. Now we have problem no. 3.
In an accident where a car's hydrogen tank/s are crushed, for example a truck ploughing into the back of a stationary line of traffic, if this occurs in a tunnel, the carnage that has been modelled is going to hit global headlines.
The rapidly expanding 10,000 psi hydrogen gas will explode instantly with almost 100% certainty. The explosion is over in milliseconds but the energy release rate is so high that the pressure wave sent also the tunnel is likely to injure people up to 300 metres away. Within 30 metres, no-one is expected to survive the 2000C fireball, for those lucky enough to survive that, they will be stretchered out with damage to their lungs and eardrums, and any body cavities where the pressure wave can do its damage. How many cars and people can you fit into 300 metres of tunnel?
It's flat earthing at the end of the day. The total denial of reality and science while adopting the devout belief of gurus and messiahs. Which does lead to political extremism which is why so many have objectified a car with batteries as being their devil.
Meanwhile, on the mainland, those nations which border Russia have clung to the concept of hydrogen out of abject fear as some magical thing to save them from the Bear.
We are very obviously just going to keep using petrol for the next 30-40 years and keep that pre existing infrastructure working. Meanwhile, we're going to keep building our renewables and keep selling the excess production at point of creation because it is the most profitable way to deal with an excess for a nation in the unique position of the U.K. of having very high wind production capabilities, very energy resource poor affluent neighbours a few miles away and a natural gas supply in our doorstep to fall back on as the energy backbone.
And yet nutters are wetting their pants about needing to store electricity like it's guns and spam for their mentalist prepper's apocalypse next Thursday.
The chap who presumably spends a good deal of his day putting little laughing emojis on any social media post including an EV, who might occasionally reply with some gubbins involving the word "hydrogen" - he would have seen the informed replies earlier, that can easily be fact checked if you had the inclination, skimmed them, shook his head and muttered some conspiracy nonsense in his head, then scurried off to another corner of the internet where saying that same nonsense releases that instant dopamine hit of a few thumbs up or maybe even a heart emoji.
If it can fit on a meme, and it is a counter to something you don't like - it's enough to form an unshakeable opinion. "Scientists" are just people who command a little laughing emoji, and are also part of that same conspiracy youtube told you was a thing.
The actual truth - that no you couldn't coordinate a global conspiracy to release EVs onto us no matter how powerful you were, and yes they are the best technology open to us if we insist on moving about a few thousand miles per year and having nice things..... doesn't fit on a meme. So it will take years to flush out before they get into their EVs that everyone will have at some point, and latch onto the next thing.... like the 5G their phone use that a few years ago was giving people covid!
Olivera said:
JD said:
It sounds like you do more worrying about EV charging than people who own them do.
What's the saying, living in your head rent free?
Not worrying, just merely reflecting that ICE is still significantly better at effortless long distance touring. What's the saying, living in your head rent free?
740EVTORQUES said:
Olivera said:
smn159 said:
You drive 600 miles without a break?
Never, usually maybe 3 hours, but I don't need to have *any* concern over where I'm going, and whether there are working and available chargers. It’s not a problem, really it isn’t.
tty petrol stations and coming away >£100 poorer but each to their owncidered77 said:
i think the most significant danger humanity faces right now is not climate change, or nuclear war, or AI turning on us etc etc - it's the colossal global roll back of collective human intelligence happening right in front of our eyes.
The chap who presumably spends a good deal of his day putting little laughing emojis on any social media post including an EV, who might occasionally reply with some gubbins involving the word "hydrogen" - he would have seen the informed replies earlier, that can easily be fact checked if you had the inclination, skimmed them, shook his head and muttered some conspiracy nonsense in his head, then scurried off to another corner of the internet where saying that same nonsense releases that instant dopamine hit of a few thumbs up or maybe even a heart emoji.
If it can fit on a meme, and it is a counter to something you don't like - it's enough to form an unshakeable opinion. "Scientists" are just people who command a little laughing emoji, and are also part of that same conspiracy youtube told you was a thing.
The actual truth - that no you couldn't coordinate a global conspiracy to release EVs onto us no matter how powerful you were, and yes they are the best technology open to us if we insist on moving about a few thousand miles per year and having nice things..... doesn't fit on a meme. So it will take years to flush out before they get into their EVs that everyone will have at some point, and latch onto the next thing.... like the 5G their phone use that a few years ago was giving people covid!
It's the dawn of an idiocracy. The chap who presumably spends a good deal of his day putting little laughing emojis on any social media post including an EV, who might occasionally reply with some gubbins involving the word "hydrogen" - he would have seen the informed replies earlier, that can easily be fact checked if you had the inclination, skimmed them, shook his head and muttered some conspiracy nonsense in his head, then scurried off to another corner of the internet where saying that same nonsense releases that instant dopamine hit of a few thumbs up or maybe even a heart emoji.
If it can fit on a meme, and it is a counter to something you don't like - it's enough to form an unshakeable opinion. "Scientists" are just people who command a little laughing emoji, and are also part of that same conspiracy youtube told you was a thing.
The actual truth - that no you couldn't coordinate a global conspiracy to release EVs onto us no matter how powerful you were, and yes they are the best technology open to us if we insist on moving about a few thousand miles per year and having nice things..... doesn't fit on a meme. So it will take years to flush out before they get into their EVs that everyone will have at some point, and latch onto the next thing.... like the 5G their phone use that a few years ago was giving people covid!
Meanwhile arch nemesis Bill Gates is investing in battery companies for road and air transport solutions and hydrogen projects to replace fossil fuel hydrogen in industry with any future excess for aviation fuel solutions with all extraction planned to be used at point of source.
I did my first proper trip in Mrs T’s Model Y over the last few days. My work meant staying away for 3 nights with a combined mileage of around 470 miles across 3 days.
Charger at home to 100% before I left. On the second night I charged where I was staying to 100% for about £18 (Vendelectric) and then plugged it in last night when I got home. All worked seamlessly and zero worries about charging as I could easily have used Tesla sites. I didn’t because I wanted to see how hard it was to use a non-Tesla charger. Answer - not at all hard. Total ‘fuel cost’ for the trip around £25.
A very nice place to be for the drive.
Charger at home to 100% before I left. On the second night I charged where I was staying to 100% for about £18 (Vendelectric) and then plugged it in last night when I got home. All worked seamlessly and zero worries about charging as I could easily have used Tesla sites. I didn’t because I wanted to see how hard it was to use a non-Tesla charger. Answer - not at all hard. Total ‘fuel cost’ for the trip around £25.
A very nice place to be for the drive.
Back to real-world experiences briefly. I had a 140-mile airport run to home late last night, and we'd taken the Tesla. We landed later than expected, and the drive home was mostly quiet A-roads (lots of dual carriageways and roundabouts).
I made it home in a shade under 2 hours, so a fantastic average speed for SE England. I'd say that was probably the fastest cross-country run I've done in years, and the Tesla was pretty close to the perfect tool for the job.
Cruising at 95+ for miles (only briefly venturing over 100), blasting back up to speed with a load of torque off the roundabouts. Driving in complete silence while my wife dozed in the passenger seat.
140 miles at pretty much 'maximum safe attack' pace yielded 55% of the battery used, giving me a theoretically range at that pace of 250+ miles (roughly London to Blackpool, with a few % to spare). All for about £4 in charge. Very impressive.
It might not be the last word in handling prowess, and it might not make the right noises, but it's a sensationally capable car for that kind of driving.
I made it home in a shade under 2 hours, so a fantastic average speed for SE England. I'd say that was probably the fastest cross-country run I've done in years, and the Tesla was pretty close to the perfect tool for the job.
Cruising at 95+ for miles (only briefly venturing over 100), blasting back up to speed with a load of torque off the roundabouts. Driving in complete silence while my wife dozed in the passenger seat.
140 miles at pretty much 'maximum safe attack' pace yielded 55% of the battery used, giving me a theoretically range at that pace of 250+ miles (roughly London to Blackpool, with a few % to spare). All for about £4 in charge. Very impressive.
It might not be the last word in handling prowess, and it might not make the right noises, but it's a sensationally capable car for that kind of driving.
740EVTORQUES said:
Olivera said:
smn159 said:
You drive 600 miles without a break?
Never, usually maybe 3 hours, but I don't need to have *any* concern over where I'm going, and whether there are working and available chargers. It’s not a problem, really it isn’t.
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