EVs... no one wants them!

[DonkeyApple]

greenarrow said:

Back to EVs. Like many I spend too much time on facebook marketplace and I've noticed how cheap the early Nissan Leafs have become. Part of me thinks you'd have to be crazy to buy a car that the advert claims can only do 50 miles on a charge now it has 80-90K on it, but the other part of me thinks that if you want an urban run around, to the shops and back or the town, its a pretty canny choice. £1900 is the cheapest one I've seen. Very tempting proposition actually in many ways, just to buy an old one for a bit to see how I get on with an EV before making the plunge fully. Maybe for me, an early Leaf could become my new K11 Micra

To all intents and purpose those old Leafs are luxury mobility scooters. A means to trundle to the corner shop or bookmakers without the social embarrassment of the pavement EV.

You can have them rebatteried but I've no idea if that makes economic sense.

I think it'll be the next generation of EVs from that Leaf that will be the great sheds. EVs coming off their first lease around now will find a home amongst folk with driveways but give it a few years and when cars get to about 6+ years old the number of potential buyers who don't have driveways is increasing rapidly and are becoming a core part of the demand side. When the current EVs get to that sort of age those buyers won't be there yet. That's a huge slug of consumer demand that won't exist.

So in a few years time we should start to see 6+ year old EVs having to be priced to attract a much smaller consumer demographic as the charging infrastructure won't exist to support potential buyers who don't have driveways. They won't be part of the market for maybe a decade or more yet.

Adding to this future downward pressure potential is the ZEV Mandate. New car sales will be fighting each other to obtain a sufficient number of customers to avoid the tax penalties. The largest potential new car customer base is the used car user. I'd wager that close to 100% of new car buyers are being attracted from the used car market. . If manufacturers are having to price compete to avoid tax penalties then this means they will continue to struggle to manipulate yr 3 used values upwards and against the consumers but also that more consumers will be enticed away from buying a used 3 or 5 yr old EV into a new one. And better battery tech is going to add yet again to that pressure.

There are of course, only a very small number of used EVs set to hit the market. For the next few years it's only going to be a few hundred thousand each year so it's not like there is big supply but demand definitely looks set to remain very low. But to those in that niche demographic the used EV represents a massive bargain when to others they can't even begin to make use of one.

So spend £2k on a mobility scooter today or just wait a bit longer for more used EVs to filter in, more cheap new EVs to hit the market, the impending jump in battery tech due later this year to hit etc and pick up a dirt cheap EV that can still do 200 miles on a charge because so few of the potential buyers at this level can make use of them?

I think the smart move is to wait just a little longer for things like MGs and ID3s etc to be breaking the 6 yr mark for the real bargains?

[romft123]

And thats exactly where my Bro in law is. They are leasing a Leaf for 3 years, Had it just over 1 years now and they like it so far and are really thinking an EV works for them....BUT they have the small battery and thats the only minus in their scorecard so far....everything else about the car they like.

They really need a bigger battery car for a monthly 500 mile round trip and with 2 baby grandkids just arrived, thats another 400 mile round trip thrown in as well. They can now easily contrast between the shorter EV journies with the longer diesel ones. 2 years is a long time in EVolution.

[FiF]

Just to note Stellantis firing warning shots about production in Luton and Ellesmere Port depending upon whether government electrification initiatives create a "hostile trading environment" whatever that means,

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-manufa...

[confused_buyer]

DonkeyApple said:

To all intents and purpose those old Leafs are luxury mobility scooters. A means to trundle to the corner shop or bookmakers without the social embarrassment of the pavement EV.

I've been shedding an old LEAF for the last few months. I might do a write up on it. It's actually an extremely useful thing to have around and gets vastly more use than I ever imagined. Obviously they are not for everyone but if you can accommodate an extra car and can charge it they are a very useful 2nd or 3rd car to have having around.

[soxboy]

FiF said:

Just to note Stellantis firing warning shots about production in Luton and Ellesmere Port depending upon whether government electrification initiatives create a "hostile trading environment" whatever that means,

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-manufa...

It seems quite a regular thing that the company make threats about the future of that plant in an attempt to influence government decisions.

Stellantis probably do it to every government where they have a factory.

[Dave200]

confused_buyer said:

DonkeyApple said:

To all intents and purpose those old Leafs are luxury mobility scooters. A means to trundle to the corner shop or bookmakers without the social embarrassment of the pavement EV.

I've been shedding an old LEAF for the last few months. I might do a write up on it. It's actually an extremely useful thing to have around and gets vastly more use than I ever imagined. Obviously they are not for everyone but if you can accommodate an extra car and can charge it they are a very useful 2nd or 3rd car to have having around.

Couldn't agree more. If I was just in need of a city car and had a driveway spot, I'd run one on a 3-pin socket for maximum frugality.

[cidered77]

DonkeyApple said:

greenarrow said:

Back to EVs. Like many I spend too much time on facebook marketplace and I've noticed how cheap the early Nissan Leafs have become. Part of me thinks you'd have to be crazy to buy a car that the advert claims can only do 50 miles on a charge now it has 80-90K on it, but the other part of me thinks that if you want an urban run around, to the shops and back or the town, its a pretty canny choice. £1900 is the cheapest one I've seen. Very tempting proposition actually in many ways, just to buy an old one for a bit to see how I get on with an EV before making the plunge fully. Maybe for me, an early Leaf could become my new K11 Micra

To all intents and purpose those old Leafs are luxury mobility scooters. A means to trundle to the corner shop or bookmakers without the social embarrassment of the pavement EV.

You can have them rebatteried but I've no idea if that makes economic sense.

I think it'll be the next generation of EVs from that Leaf that will be the great sheds. EVs coming off their first lease around now will find a home amongst folk with driveways but give it a few years and when cars get to about 6+ years old the number of potential buyers who don't have driveways is increasing rapidly and are becoming a core part of the demand side. When the current EVs get to that sort of age those buyers won't be there yet. That's a huge slug of consumer demand that won't exist.

So in a few years time we should start to see 6+ year old EVs having to be priced to attract a much smaller consumer demographic as the charging infrastructure won't exist to support potential buyers who don't have driveways. They won't be part of the market for maybe a decade or more yet.

Adding to this future downward pressure potential is the ZEV Mandate. New car sales will be fighting each other to obtain a sufficient number of customers to avoid the tax penalties. The largest potential new car customer base is the used car user. I'd wager that close to 100% of new car buyers are being attracted from the used car market. . If manufacturers are having to price compete to avoid tax penalties then this means they will continue to struggle to manipulate yr 3 used values upwards and against the consumers but also that more consumers will be enticed away from buying a used 3 or 5 yr old EV into a new one. And better battery tech is going to add yet again to that pressure.

There are of course, only a very small number of used EVs set to hit the market. For the next few years it's only going to be a few hundred thousand each year so it's not like there is big supply but demand definitely looks set to remain very low. But to those in that niche demographic the used EV represents a massive bargain when to others they can't even begin to make use of one.

So spend £2k on a mobility scooter today or just wait a bit longer for more used EVs to filter in, more cheap new EVs to hit the market, the impending jump in battery tech due later this year to hit etc and pick up a dirt cheap EV that can still do 200 miles on a charge because so few of the potential buyers at this level can make use of them?

I think the smart move is to wait just a little longer for things like MGs and ID3s etc to be breaking the 6 yr mark for the real bargains?

Having to help my sister out far too often with the shed 5-8k cars she can afford, this can't come soon enough. There seems to be no correlation between brand and actual reliability with 10-15 year old small cars, or with mileage. Injectors on a Peugeot, power steering pumps on a skoda, various other crap on a Honda.... she can't afford garage bills, and i like a challenge, but - still, it's such a pain.

I can't see anywhere else but deeply south for values of EVs - even the mid-life facelifts (Taycan, Polestar 2) make improvements way in excess of what you'd expect with an ICE car, hurting older values further. Once we're at 5 years +, surely anything that could go wrong has been flushed out, and we're just talking about slightly degraded battery life and less efficiency that a new car. But many many many less moving bits to worry about.

Even public chargers - internet loves a "there is no infrastructure" rant, but - I've started checking every single charging station i see out in the wild to see when i'll see one full up. Still waiting in 2024...

I'd recommend one today for sis if less than 10k. She does maybe 150 miles a week - not a big drama even if no way to charge at home (and with creative use of an extension cable let's be honst, you could if you needed to!)

[Unreal]

greenarrow said:

Back to EVs. Like many I spend too much time on facebook marketplace and I've noticed how cheap the early Nissan Leafs have become. Part of me thinks you'd have to be crazy to buy a car that the advert claims can only do 50 miles on a charge now it has 80-90K on it, but the other part of me thinks that if you want an urban run around, to the shops and back or the town, its a pretty canny choice. £1900 is the cheapest one I've seen. Very tempting proposition actually in many ways, just to buy an old one for a bit to see how I get on with an EV before making the plunge fully. Maybe for me, an early Leaf could become my new K11 Micra

Just be careful with the acceleration.

[Desiderata]

Dave200 said:

confused_buyer said:

DonkeyApple said:

To all intents and purpose those old Leafs are luxury mobility scooters. A means to trundle to the corner shop or bookmakers without the social embarrassment of the pavement EV.

I've been shedding an old LEAF for the last few months. I might do a write up on it. It's actually an extremely useful thing to have around and gets vastly more use than I ever imagined. Obviously they are not for everyone but if you can accommodate an extra car and can charge it they are a very useful 2nd or 3rd car to have having around.

Couldn't agree more. If I was just in need of a city car and had a driveway spot, I'd run one on a 3-pin socket for maximum frugality.

I've been considering one for exactly these reasons. We've got a nice family car for long trips, an MX5 for fun. And something cheap to trundle down to the shops a couple of times a week. I think an old Leaf would do the trundle quite well and very cheaply.
Silly question, but could I charge it up overnight at 7p per unit then use the stored electricity during the day to run my household? It would be cheaper than a Tesla powerwall with the added advantage of having a spare occasional use car.

[Olivera]

confused_buyer said:

DonkeyApple said:

To all intents and purpose those old Leafs are luxury mobility scooters. A means to trundle to the corner shop or bookmakers without the social embarrassment of the pavement EV.

I've been shedding an old LEAF for the last few months. I might do a write up on it. It's actually an extremely useful thing to have around and gets vastly more use than I ever imagined. Obviously they are not for everyone but if you can accommodate an extra car and can charge it they are a very useful 2nd or 3rd car to have having around.

If you can afford to run 2-3 cars then the mobility scooter Leaf is a complete waste of time, just run something (EV or ICE) that's significantly more convenient.

If the Leaf is the mobility scooter of EVs then the AMI fits the wheelchair category

Edited by Olivera on Tuesday 25th June 10:54

[DonkeyApple]

confused_buyer said:

I've been shedding an old LEAF for the last few months. I might do a write up on it. It's actually an extremely useful thing to have around and gets vastly more use than I ever imagined. Obviously they are not for everyone but if you can accommodate an extra car and can charge it they are a very useful 2nd or 3rd car to have having around.

I think that if we wait just a little longer there will be the exact same thing available but with better range. To me these EV 'station cars' are a brilliant alternative to the old Golf sitting in the drive as that spare car for chores.

[DonkeyApple]

cidered77 said:

Having to help my sister out far too often with the shed 5-8k cars she can afford, this can't come soon enough. There seems to be no correlation between brand and actual reliability with 10-15 year old small cars, or with mileage. Injectors on a Peugeot, power steering pumps on a skoda, various other crap on a Honda.... she can't afford garage bills, and i like a challenge, but - still, it's such a pain.

I can't see anywhere else but deeply south for values of EVs - even the mid-life facelifts (Taycan, Polestar 2) make improvements way in excess of what you'd expect with an ICE car, hurting older values further. Once we're at 5 years +, surely anything that could go wrong has been flushed out, and we're just talking about slightly degraded battery life and less efficiency that a new car. But many many many less moving bits to worry about.

Even public chargers - internet loves a "there is no infrastructure" rant, but - I've started checking every single charging station i see out in the wild to see when i'll see one full up. Still waiting in 2024...

I'd recommend one today for sis if less than 10k. She does maybe 150 miles a week - not a big drama even if no way to charge at home (and with creative use of an extension cable let's be honst, you could if you needed to!)

Yup. Folks worrying about battery degradation are missing the point that these soon to be old EVs will be sitting there not consuming huge sums in labour and parts as bits wear out, not being taxed endlessly and when it's time to lob them in a bin will have a scrap value that's much higher.

[confused_buyer]

Olivera said:

If you can afford to run 2-3 cars then the mobility scooter Leaf is a complete waste of time, just run something (EV or ICE) that's significantly more convenient.

If the Leaf is the mobility scooter of EVs then the AMI fits the wheelchair category

Edited by Olivera on Tuesday 25th June 10:54

But you see that's the surprising thing. I've discovered the old leaf is in fact very convenient. It's is one of the most "fit for purpose" vehicles I've come across for a while. Of course it depends on whether its purpose fits with your needs, if it doe then it's a great car, if it doesn't then obviously it isn't.

Obviously other, even more convenient, EVs will eventually come into shed territory but at the moment there are not many.

[confused_buyer]

Unreal said:

Just be careful with the acceleration.

I don't know if that was being sarcastic or not but even a Mk 1 LEAF is actually pretty nippy and in an urban environment can embarrass some surprisingly exotic vehicles at the traffic lights and roundabouts.

[FiF]

DonkeyApple said:

confused_buyer said:

I've been shedding an old LEAF for the last few months. I might do a write up on it. It's actually an extremely useful thing to have around and gets vastly more use than I ever imagined. Obviously they are not for everyone but if you can accommodate an extra car and can charge it they are a very useful 2nd or 3rd car to have having around.

I think that if we wait just a little longer there will be the exact same thing available but with better range. To me these EV 'station cars' are a brilliant alternative to the old Golf sitting in the drive as that spare car for chores.

Indeed, much greater bandwidth and 3 'working' cars could be reduced to 2 etc, ignoring fun vehicles.

Personally, even speaking as someone who has historically bought new, looked after them properly until they either die or become a liability, not just financially but more the inconvenience of frequenr unreliability, will be looking at used. Really looking forward to it.

Sheds from the late 90's and very early noughties, they're a bit rubbish now, and looking back same when new especially considering when their designs and developments were laid down in comparison to modern offerings, just like proper classics but without the sentimentality and emotion attached. Obviously particularly for younger generations there are some exceptions to that last comment.

[MightyBadger]

confused_buyer said:

can embarrass some surprisingly exotic vehicles at the traffic lights and roundabouts.

Does it though? Which cars and how?

[lost in espace]

MightyBadger said:

Does it though? Which cars and how?

I had 2 a 24 and a 30kwh, they are very quick up to 40mph. Unlike my MG ZS and e:ng1 which can't get the power down and the car restricts how quickly you get off the line together with wheel slip, the Leaf flew off the traffic lights. Zero lag as well.

I sold my 30kwh at 80k miles, the battery was degrading badly and it would just lose power if you got under 10% with no warning. I suspect the 30 is a far worse buy than the 24 for the battery chemistry. We also had issues charging it more than twice on a long journey at a rapid due to rapidgate.

[Dave200]

Desiderata said:

Dave200 said:

confused_buyer said:

DonkeyApple said:

To all intents and purpose those old Leafs are luxury mobility scooters. A means to trundle to the corner shop or bookmakers without the social embarrassment of the pavement EV.

I've been shedding an old LEAF for the last few months. I might do a write up on it. It's actually an extremely useful thing to have around and gets vastly more use than I ever imagined. Obviously they are not for everyone but if you can accommodate an extra car and can charge it they are a very useful 2nd or 3rd car to have having around.

Couldn't agree more. If I was just in need of a city car and had a driveway spot, I'd run one on a 3-pin socket for maximum frugality.

I've been considering one for exactly these reasons. We've got a nice family car for long trips, an MX5 for fun. And something cheap to trundle down to the shops a couple of times a week. I think an old Leaf would do the trundle quite well and very cheaply.
Silly question, but could I charge it up overnight at 7p per unit then use the stored electricity during the day to run my household? It would be cheaper than a Tesla powerwall with the added advantage of having a spare occasional use car.

You wouldn't be able to return the stored electricity to your house during the day. You'd need a battery (the kind that typically goes with solar panels) and a controller/inverter installed in your house to do that.

I went with solar a few years back. My house is currently running entirely from batteries charged at overnight rate (two of us WFH, washing machine on), while the Tesla charges for free direct from the solar panels. It's liberating.

[DonkeyApple]

FiF said:

Indeed, much greater bandwidth and 3 'working' cars could be reduced to 2 etc, ignoring fun vehicles.

Personally, even speaking as someone who has historically bought new, looked after them properly until they either die or become a liability, not just financially but more the inconvenience of frequenr unreliability, will be looking at used. Really looking forward to it.

Sheds from the late 90's and very early noughties, they're a bit rubbish now, and looking back same when new especially considering when their designs and developments were laid down in comparison to modern offerings, just like proper classics but without the sentimentality and emotion attached. Obviously particularly for younger generations there are some exceptions to that last comment.

Quite a few used EVs now in the £10-15 bracket. That suggests we can't be more than a 2-3 years from have a reasonable supply in the £5-10 area. But the usual core buyer of £5-10k cars probably won't by then be in any position to use them easily so plenty of choice for those who can.

[otolith]

Dave200 said:

Desiderata said:

Dave200 said:

confused_buyer said:

DonkeyApple said:

To all intents and purpose those old Leafs are luxury mobility scooters. A means to trundle to the corner shop or bookmakers without the social embarrassment of the pavement EV.

I've been shedding an old LEAF for the last few months. I might do a write up on it. It's actually an extremely useful thing to have around and gets vastly more use than I ever imagined. Obviously they are not for everyone but if you can accommodate an extra car and can charge it they are a very useful 2nd or 3rd car to have having around.

Couldn't agree more. If I was just in need of a city car and had a driveway spot, I'd run one on a 3-pin socket for maximum frugality.

I've been considering one for exactly these reasons. We've got a nice family car for long trips, an MX5 for fun. And something cheap to trundle down to the shops a couple of times a week. I think an old Leaf would do the trundle quite well and very cheaply.
Silly question, but could I charge it up overnight at 7p per unit then use the stored electricity during the day to run my household? It would be cheaper than a Tesla powerwall with the added advantage of having a spare occasional use car.

You wouldn't be able to return the stored electricity to your house during the day. You'd need a battery (the kind that typically goes with solar panels) and a controller/inverter installed in your house to do that.

I went with solar a few years back. My house is currently running entirely from batteries charged at overnight rate (two of us WFH, washing machine on), while the Tesla charges for free direct from the solar panels. It's liberating.

I believe that current Leaf models can do exactly what he's asking for (V2H), but that old ones can't.