EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
number2 said:
Yup, I watched the Sandy video...
It's always a bad start when someone rants... you know that 'passion' has overtaken rational thinking.
The 'auto driving' thing is free money, of course it is Sandy... that just came out of thin air, no money spent on R&D for that or any other feature, or the cars themselves.
No mention of the cost debt financing either.
Just add up the cost of the nuts and bolts.
By heck, the internet is a dangerous place.
I did think that. Theres clearly a cost! Although he was in rant mode, and I know what he was saying. It's always a bad start when someone rants... you know that 'passion' has overtaken rational thinking.
The 'auto driving' thing is free money, of course it is Sandy... that just came out of thin air, no money spent on R&D for that or any other feature, or the cars themselves.
No mention of the cost debt financing either.
Just add up the cost of the nuts and bolts.
By heck, the internet is a dangerous place.
As to whether Tesla have shot themselves in the foot on price reductions, I highly doubt it. Its like when apple came out with the Air and then people got annoyed when they quickly put the M1 chip in. People get over it.
Tesla have the best brand positioning and best charge network. They are like apple and their brand wont suffer. Plus, how many people are actually affected? Not that many really, and surely most teslas are put through companies or on monthly salary sacrifice, so its smoke and mirrors on the costs anyway. And the flip side is of course that Teslas are helping to reduce costs for the masses,
Gregmitchell said:
IPACE value dropped again..... my lease car which i can buy through LEX
November - £37k
December - £30k
Today - £27k
No one wants them that's for sure! I don't even want mine anymore, it's going back Tuesday
iPaces and Audi E-Trons (the original huge one) are the top of the pile on value shedding not seen since the days of the Citroen XM and Peugeot 605.November - £37k
December - £30k
Today - £27k
No one wants them that's for sure! I don't even want mine anymore, it's going back Tuesday
They've been struggling for some months with £80k new list examples down to below £35k in two years.
Tesla prices, and all EV's on that rising tide, were inflated by the rush to order using salary sacrifice.
Suddenly, Dave from accounts could get a Model 3 for the cost of the PCP on his 118D and at a fraction of the running costs. His boss could large it up in a Taycan.
A combination of unable to meet orders and throttling demand meant that prices stayed at list and second hand were not far off.
Now, as many of these 3 year deals come to an end, the gloss has worn off, charging costs, especially those who are outside the Tesla supercharging network, are a) expensive and b) a royal pain in the arse as they don't work, have queues or are ICE'd.
That demand in 2020 into 2021 now means there's a surfeit of cars sitting around at BCA or wherever, looking for a home. I am not sure what the finance market is like for a second-hand Tesla, but when I looked at getting a Model S for work a few years back, none of the brokers and lenders like Black Horse or Santander, would touch them. If that is still the case, prices will need to fall to meet the depth of the public's pockets.
covmutley said:
I did think that. Theres clearly a cost! Although he was in rant mode, and I know what he was saying.
As to whether Tesla have shot themselves in the foot on price reductions, I highly doubt it. Its like when apple came out with the Air and then people got annoyed when they quickly put the M1 chip in. People get over it.
Tesla have the best brand positioning and best charge network. They are like apple and their brand wont suffer. Plus, how many people are actually affected? Not that many really, and surely most teslas are put through companies or on monthly salary sacrifice, so its smoke and mirrors on the costs anyway. And the flip side is of course that Teslas are helping to reduce costs for the masses,
They don’t even know who Sandy Munro is let alone his history in the Automotive engineering industry. He has enough sway in America to get Musk himself to turn up and be interviewed because of Sandy’s criticism of the manufacturing quality of Teslas .As to whether Tesla have shot themselves in the foot on price reductions, I highly doubt it. Its like when apple came out with the Air and then people got annoyed when they quickly put the M1 chip in. People get over it.
Tesla have the best brand positioning and best charge network. They are like apple and their brand wont suffer. Plus, how many people are actually affected? Not that many really, and surely most teslas are put through companies or on monthly salary sacrifice, so its smoke and mirrors on the costs anyway. And the flip side is of course that Teslas are helping to reduce costs for the masses,
Castrol for a knave said:
Tesla prices, and all EV's on that rising tide, were inflated by the rush to order using salary sacrifice.
Suddenly, Dave from accounts could get a Model 3 for the cost of the PCP on his 118D and at a fraction of the running costs. His boss could large it up in a Taycan.
Spot on. It's amazing how many £50k Teslas are parked outside 1 bed flats worth £130k. I like the Model 3 a lot but in the way it has been sold it is basically the Vauxhall Insignia of our times. Suddenly, Dave from accounts could get a Model 3 for the cost of the PCP on his 118D and at a fraction of the running costs. His boss could large it up in a Taycan.
Zoltar said:
Typical EVangelist nonsense. Real range is say ~200 miles out of a Taycan for example giving you a return trip of basically 100 miles since you can't rely on the charging network. Now most people don't want to risk running out of charge so let's take 80% of that to build in an emergency reserve. So an 80 mile range vs 600+ out of an average diesel. Of course nobody "needs" to drive 80 miles in a day do they? 
Add into that the crash in residuals as discussed on this thread together with electricity charging costs and it looks even worse. Of course they'll be the exceptional case of someone piping up to say they got 220 miles one day in the summer but who wants to drive like a hypermiling loser ?
We can have the same arguments with the same EVangelist loons perpetually but the bottom line is the 2030 ban nonsense is for certain getting kicked into the long grass. EVs are inferior and Net Zero policies will get abandoned once the economic reality kicks in.
Can’t really argue with Taycan and similar vehicles. Way too expensive and real world range is just under 200 miles. I should add I have NEVER got anywhere near 600 miles from a diesel . I’ve had loads but the best I got was about 525 driving as economically as possible from i think a vw 2.0tdi but real world I was filling up at between 400 and 425 mile per tank. Add into that the crash in residuals as discussed on this thread together with electricity charging costs and it looks even worse. Of course they'll be the exceptional case of someone piping up to say they got 220 miles one day in the summer but who wants to drive like a hypermiling loser ? We can have the same arguments with the same EVangelist loons perpetually but the bottom line is the 2030 ban nonsense is for certain getting kicked into the long grass. EVs are inferior and Net Zero policies will get abandoned once the economic reality kicks in.
In my Tesla the worst I have ever got was 200 miles. That’s in winter , driving quite quickly with lights , heated steering wheel and seats on.It will do taking it normally about 220 to 230 miles per day which is fine for me.
Like I’ve said I wouldn’t touch any other ev if you do longer trips bar a Tesla so choosing an EV really has to come down to thinking what you need from a vehicle. You just have to look at the amount of Teslas on the motorway now to see they work.
Edited by Chipper on Thursday 2nd February 13:51
Leicesterdave said:
If you're thinking of trading in your EV anytime soon don't bother!
2 VW dealers this am wouldn't touch my Cupra Born. I have never in 23 years had a dealer refuse to take my car in part exchange, never!
Dealers simply don't want EVs and I have to admit that of course it's scaring me as I need to sell but the loss is far too great to bear.
I hope the situation improves over the next 6 months or so....
It's the opposite here, the dealers are refusing to stock EV's2 VW dealers this am wouldn't touch my Cupra Born. I have never in 23 years had a dealer refuse to take my car in part exchange, never!
Dealers simply don't want EVs and I have to admit that of course it's scaring me as I need to sell but the loss is far too great to bear.
I hope the situation improves over the next 6 months or so....
Edited by Leicesterdave on Wednesday 1st February 11:23
Chipper said:
You state VW will not even be bothered about the price reduction by Tesla is comical. Tesla car production costs on EV’s is massively lower than VW and their like. If manufacturers arent worried what Tesla did why has Ford dropped their prices ?
This is the current price for a base spec new ID3[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/jhgYKUEN[/url]
£40000 list price for a car not even in the same category as a model 3 , has a huge difference in spec , has a terrible range compared to the Tesla, is slower by a big margin and has less warranty. And the killer is it doesnt have acces to a reliable EV charging network.
The only advantage it might have is its smaller so potentially easier to park!
Oh you can negotiate can you. Wow because you really need to negotiate as my guess now that £40000 id3 needs to retail at under £29000 to even stand a chance.
Tesla has showed the car market you can retail cars online. Do you honestly think other manufacturers havent seen this and especially now have to reduce their costs to compete ?
Tesla i bet could drag that price of £42900 for a new model 3 down to £37900 and still make more than VW makes on an id3.
£40k for that ? no wonder they are in free fall.This is the current price for a base spec new ID3[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/jhgYKUEN[/url]£40000 list price for a car not even in the same category as a model 3 , has a huge difference in spec , has a terrible range compared to the Tesla, is slower by a big margin and has less warranty. And the killer is it doesnt have acces to a reliable EV charging network.
The only advantage it might have is its smaller so potentially easier to park!
Oh you can negotiate can you. Wow because you really need to negotiate as my guess now that £40000 id3 needs to retail at under £29000 to even stand a chance.
Tesla has showed the car market you can retail cars online. Do you honestly think other manufacturers havent seen this and especially now have to reduce their costs to compete ?
Tesla i bet could drag that price of £42900 for a new model 3 down to £37900 and still make more than VW makes on an id3.
Edited by Chipper on Thursday 2nd February 11:45
jimmybell said:
those used e-tron prices are really attractive, i just want one that does slightly more range (ideally 250miles on motorway), because it's charging speed is pants afaik. any other higher end EVs that would tick that box?
I believe they struggle to do 150 miles on a full charge, hence the reason they are cheap.I dread to think what the range will be at ten years old in below freezing temperatures, l bet they will struggle to do 100 miles.
Chipper said:
confused_buyer said:
Spot on. It's amazing how many £50k Teslas are parked outside 1 bed flats worth £130k. I like the Model 3 a lot but in the way it has been sold it is basically the Vauxhall Insignia of our times.
Yeah it’s the new Mondeo and Ford Transit of the office guy.Chipper said:
soupdragon1 said:
You're literally imagining stuff in your head now
There is no way you have access to VW commercially sensitive data yet it appears, you've somehow worked it out?
I'm calling BS until you show your workings.
Whats BS ? What the hell are yon on about commercially sensitive data ????There is no way you have access to VW commercially sensitive data yet it appears, you've somehow worked it out?
I'm calling BS until you show your workings.
Its not rocket science to work out commercially how a huge bloated over staffed dealership network is not going to be able to compete with a company that does everything online with a centre source for deliveries. Have you heard about Amazon ?
Look at the price of the id3 against a model 3 . Which would you buy? You dont think VW will have to shift their pricing ?
Let's try and stay on one topic at a time, shall we?
The profit margins of VW aren't rocket science. Good. That should make it easy for you then. Let's hear your summary about VW EV profit margins.
dmsims said:
confused_buyer said:
It's pretty easy to find a 6 month old Golf with under 3k miles for £20k. You can have a brand spanking new one for £23-£24k before haggling.
£25,765 for base model 1.0 manualI started looking at Fiestas for my wife the other day. The basest base model starts at over 19 grand. That's without options.
A decent spec Fiesta, brand new, is 25 grand all day long........For a Fiesta.
I've just done a national search on Autotrader at 2022 Golfs under 5k miles. The cheapest is £20840, it's done nearly 5000 miles and is 10 months old......
A BMW M3 lists today at nearly 80 grand. In 2010, a new M3 Coupe was £53k list, on the road, before options.
That's a 50% jump in just 12 years sportsfans.
Chipper said:
Can’t really argue with Taycan and similar vehicles. Way too expensive and real world range is just under 200 miles. I should add I have NEVER got anywhere near 600 miles from a diesel . I’ve had loads but the best I got was about 525 driving as economically as possible from i think a vw 2.0tdi but real world I was filling up at between 400 and 425 mile per tank.
I would assume he's talking about motorway miles as that's the anxiety for the electric cars. Also I would think 600 is a rough figure. But could certainly be possible. Idk if u watched it before but Jeremy Clarkson managed to do 800 miles on 1 tank in an Audi A8 ages ago, (London to Edinburgh and back). My 2004 Nissan Almera PETROL can probably do a close 400 motorway miles with the AC turned on for a while, albeit it has a 60 litre tank. A 1.2 PETROL 2021 Vauxhall Corsa can do around 350 miles with only a 40 litre tank if I'm not mistaken. Ofc we are talking about motorway miles, as if it's just daily commute I don't think anyone has a problem with ev range in that sense Edited by Chipper on Thursday 2nd February 13:51
soupdragon1 said:
You're hard work. Your posts are like one of those tiktok videos where the scene changes multiple times per second.
Let's try and stay on one topic at a time, shall we?
The profit margins of VW aren't rocket science. Good. That should make it easy for you then. Let's hear your summary about VW EV profit margins.
Im not really bothered about VW profit margins or Ford or Teslas but I do believe what Sandy Munro says about the profit margin in the vehicle compared to the other manufacturers and hence why the ev used market has taken a hell of a kicking by Tesla’s aggressive price reduction. Im not sure if you know who he is and his history but I would have a guess that he knows more than you. Please explain why you don’t believe what he says or at least explain why you believe as you state VW EV’s are on par or maybe better in production costs than Tesla ? Honestly I would be interested.Let's try and stay on one topic at a time, shall we?
The profit margins of VW aren't rocket science. Good. That should make it easy for you then. Let's hear your summary about VW EV profit margins.
I’ll hold my hands up. I do believe what Sandy says and that’s because of his experience and knowledge ( you do know who he is right ? ) and the fact I’ve watched how he disassembles vehicles and looks at the engineering costs of manufacturing them. I haven’t heard of any other journalist, engineer or manufacturer argue against his case. Oh apart from you. I also look at the feel and set up of a Tesla and comically it is actually basically an iPad with wheels and a battery.
Secondly I do understand running costs of running a business, though clearly on a much smaller scale and in my own field but I am experienced in running multiple high street outlets which I have built from the ground up and I know how hard it is to survive. I understand the savings of not having huge overheads which is clearly an outdated model of a dealership and clearly not needed now. Dealerships as we see them will simply not be able to compete and IMO are not needed today. That is already proven as BMW and Mercedes are following Tesla in how they retail new vehicles.
Tesla has the charging network and every other manufacturer would dream of that selling point, but I just can’t see how ( or at least that’s what I think you are thinking ) you believe VW aren’t even worried about Tesla. If I owned VW I would be @@@@@@@@ bricks having a competitor so far ahead and with a properly built in infrastructure to actually fuel the damn things.
Simply put Tesla’s had got too expensive. People were getting nervous with energy costs and he wasn’t meeting expectations of shifting stock. He was ruthless by letting people buy the day before dropping the prices but he has the financial power to do that because his profit margins are substantially better than everybody else. The market has reacted. Everything used in the EV world dropped by around £5000 over night as the new benchmark is on Tesla Model 3 pricing. Dealers understandably don’t want to touch EV’s as they know every other manufacturer will soon have to drop their prices ( including VW ) and just like Ford has had to do to compete with Tesla. Obviously somewhere is this I’ve upset you about VW but I’m thinking you might be a member of a VW club ?
So to sum it up . Why the heck would you buy a £39500 basic spec id3 over a £42990 fully loaded Model 3 which you can actually drive from London to Edinburgh without having a panic attack?
My understanding is this. A Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 is (was) £150 per month to lease. A 40 litre tank at £1.50 costs £60. The same car but electric costs more than £60 extra to lease per month. So before you even add the cost of electricity, (because yes electricity isn't free) your paying more. On top of that if you manage to do 300 miles with a petrol Vs 150 with an electric, your having to charge twice essentially. I haven't done the maths but I can clearly see the ev of a Corsa isn't "cheaper". Also bills have gone up so take that into consideration.
Muzzer79 said:
A BMW M3 lists today at nearly 80 grand. In 2010, a new M3 Coupe was £53k list, on the road, before options.
That's a 50% jump in just 12 years sportsfans.
A quick glance at the BOE inflation calculator would indicate that M3 from 2010 would cost just over £72k new today and I guess you have to add something for " progress" and tech upgrade.
That's a 50% jump in just 12 years sportsfans.
A quick glance at the BOE inflation calculator would indicate that M3 from 2010 would cost just over £72k new today and I guess you have to add something for " progress" and tech upgrade.
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