Future rules news - Le Mans
Discussion
https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/149384/wec-in-l...
LM Hypercar rules brought in line with new LMDh class
LM Hypercar rules brought in line with new LMDh class
That reduces bhp from 785 to 670, (a sad loss) for both LMDh and LMHype.
So LMDh looks more attractive as its a prototype/new LMP2 chassis, rather than a road car chassis - probably not a lot of difference, and LMP2 will be much the same but with less power.
Will this make LMP2 teams jump to LMDh, and if someone like Toyota want to win, will they build a prototype as a hypercar.
I'm still puzzled, as it puts everything up in the air in the middle of a recession.
So LMDh looks more attractive as its a prototype/new LMP2 chassis, rather than a road car chassis - probably not a lot of difference, and LMP2 will be much the same but with less power.
Will this make LMP2 teams jump to LMDh, and if someone like Toyota want to win, will they build a prototype as a hypercar.
I'm still puzzled, as it puts everything up in the air in the middle of a recession.
So in real terms, can someone clarify what this means please past all the abbreviations and terminology?
Am I right in thinking:
1. This new class will be LMP2 chassis with your own running engine and systems?
2. Will you still be allowed a Hypercar?
3. Everyone in the US series will have a car eligible for Le Mans?
I only follow Le Mans (outside of motorbike racing) so don't understand what LMDH etc is.
Am I right in thinking:
1. This new class will be LMP2 chassis with your own running engine and systems?
2. Will you still be allowed a Hypercar?
3. Everyone in the US series will have a car eligible for Le Mans?
I only follow Le Mans (outside of motorbike racing) so don't understand what LMDH etc is.
wsn03 said:
So in real terms, can someone clarify what this means please past all the abbreviations and terminology?
Am I right in thinking:
1. This new class will be LMP2 chassis with your own running engine and systems?
2. Will you still be allowed a Hypercar?
3. Everyone in the US series will have a car eligible for Le Mans?
I only follow Le Mans (outside of motorbike racing) so don't understand what LMDH etc is.
Have a deek at this DSC article, which should cover everything LMDh LMH:Am I right in thinking:
1. This new class will be LMP2 chassis with your own running engine and systems?
2. Will you still be allowed a Hypercar?
3. Everyone in the US series will have a car eligible for Le Mans?
I only follow Le Mans (outside of motorbike racing) so don't understand what LMDH etc is.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/05/07/lmdh-hype...
but in essence:
1. LMDh will use the same 'tub' etc as the next gen LMP2 cars
2. Yep, LMH is still, bizarrely an option if you either wish to spend an awful lot of money or were enticed in originally by lots of OEM interest and have already spent an awful lot of money. Both ByKolles and Glickenhaus are currently sticking many many pins into their Aston MArtin voodoo dolls.
3. From 2022 ACO / IMSA convergence is now a thing and yes, there should now be commonality across the Series' (subject to some BoP when/if Alonso comes back.....)
edited to add:
LMDh = Le Mans Daytona hybrid. IMSA DPi version 2. Waaaay cheaper than LMP1 or LMH and very attractive to manufacturers from both fiscal and visual perspectives.
LMH = Le Mans Hypercar. Now a monumental waste of money to go as fast (or slow) as a LMDh.
Edited by Red Firecracker on Thursday 14th May 10:03
Red Firecracker said:
Have a deek at this DSC article, which should cover everything LMDh LMH:
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/05/07/lmdh-hype...
but in essence:
1. LMDh will use the same 'tub' etc as the next gen LMP2 cars
2. Yep, LMH is still, bizarrely an option if you either wish to spend an awful lot of money or were enticed in originally by lots of OEM interest and have already spent an awful lot of money. Both ByKolles and Glickenhaus are currently sticking many many pins into their Aston MArtin voodoo dolls.
3. From 2022 ACO / IMSA convergence is now a thing and yes, there should now be commonality across the Series' (subject to some BoP when/if Alonso comes back.....)
LMDh = Le Mans Daytona hybrid. IMSA DPi version 2. Waaaay cheaper than LMP1 or LMH and very attractive to manufacturers from both fiscal and visual perspectives.
LMH = Le Mans Hypercar. Now a monumental waste of money to go as fast (or slow) as a LMDh.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/05/07/lmdh-hype...
but in essence:
1. LMDh will use the same 'tub' etc as the next gen LMP2 cars
2. Yep, LMH is still, bizarrely an option if you either wish to spend an awful lot of money or were enticed in originally by lots of OEM interest and have already spent an awful lot of money. Both ByKolles and Glickenhaus are currently sticking many many pins into their Aston MArtin voodoo dolls.
3. From 2022 ACO / IMSA convergence is now a thing and yes, there should now be commonality across the Series' (subject to some BoP when/if Alonso comes back.....)
LMDh = Le Mans Daytona hybrid. IMSA DPi version 2. Waaaay cheaper than LMP1 or LMH and very attractive to manufacturers from both fiscal and visual perspectives.
LMH = Le Mans Hypercar. Now a monumental waste of money to go as fast (or slow) as a LMDh.
Thank you, that puts me clearly in the picture. So a bit odd, a bit of a wasted last couple of years of hypercar planning, bit of wasted effort potentially by those who stuck with it, and from 2022 we shall see more of a race than just Toyota which has to be a good thing. And I guess the cars at the front will look pretty cool like racing cars rather than strange futuristic experiments.
I'm looking forward to it - better than what we have now at least
Edited by wsn03 on Thursday 14th May 10:07
They'll be a couple of Toyotas that look vaguely road car ish and rather a few more LMP2-ish cars with a manufacturers visual identity race taped onto them. Might even be a couple of Glickenhaus' and a ByKolles in the 'Did We Need To Spend This Much?' category.
They'll be flags, fanfares and salutations that this is the best era of Sportscar racing ever, which it might be, we will just have to see. One thing is for sure though, no matter if you've spent the equivalent of a small African country's GDP in Yen or significantly fewer Euros with Oreca, paint it in horrific pale blue and orange and you'll have a fans favourite on your hands
(even if the BoP will have been subsequently adjusted to give a favoured team a bit of wiggle room....)
And some call me cynical!
They'll be flags, fanfares and salutations that this is the best era of Sportscar racing ever, which it might be, we will just have to see. One thing is for sure though, no matter if you've spent the equivalent of a small African country's GDP in Yen or significantly fewer Euros with Oreca, paint it in horrific pale blue and orange and you'll have a fans favourite on your hands
(even if the BoP will have been subsequently adjusted to give a favoured team a bit of wiggle room....)And some call me cynical!
IMSA and the FIA/ACO agreed to merge their regs...which generally seems to have been the FIA/ACO agreed to accept the IMSA regs.
You'll be able to race an LMDh (no, I don't know why we can't have a big H) car in either IMSA, the WEC, or at Le Mans but it's only the WEC/Le Mans where you'll definitely be able to race an LMH car (with a "Maybe"/"You never know" on LMH in IMSA).
Basically LMH has been shown up to be the huge white elephant it always was and the problem with chasing manufacturers, rather than giving them regs. and asking them to come play, if they are willing to follow those regs. Interestingly there are a lot of parallels with the story of GT1, which Daily Sports Car are covering a lot at the moment - started well with road cars, then got bent to please the manufacturers...who then pissed off after a couple of years and left them with nothing.
In the long run all I can see this achieving if forcing Toyota out of the WEC/Le Mans, as neither building your own car just to be hobbled so you can be beaten by cheaper LMDh cars, or just sticking a Toyota badge on another ORECA chassis does much for them as a company.
You'll be able to race an LMDh (no, I don't know why we can't have a big H) car in either IMSA, the WEC, or at Le Mans but it's only the WEC/Le Mans where you'll definitely be able to race an LMH car (with a "Maybe"/"You never know" on LMH in IMSA).
Basically LMH has been shown up to be the huge white elephant it always was and the problem with chasing manufacturers, rather than giving them regs. and asking them to come play, if they are willing to follow those regs. Interestingly there are a lot of parallels with the story of GT1, which Daily Sports Car are covering a lot at the moment - started well with road cars, then got bent to please the manufacturers...who then pissed off after a couple of years and left them with nothing.
In the long run all I can see this achieving if forcing Toyota out of the WEC/Le Mans, as neither building your own car just to be hobbled so you can be beaten by cheaper LMDh cars, or just sticking a Toyota badge on another ORECA chassis does much for them as a company.
So to the uninformed fan (like me) it just means there's a race to be had, more cars at the front - win win.
To the people who spent time on the Hypercar thing.......not good. At least Toyota have had something out of Le Mans last couple of years. Does sound like a very poor way to conduct business. I'd throw all my toys out the pram if I was in their shoes...not that it would change anybody's mind though
To the people who spent time on the Hypercar thing.......not good. At least Toyota have had something out of Le Mans last couple of years. Does sound like a very poor way to conduct business. I'd throw all my toys out the pram if I was in their shoes...not that it would change anybody's mind though
Toyota have always been extremely correct and polite no matter what the shenanigans going on, so there would not be any waves from that side I'm sure. Glickenhaus and ByKolles have been less deferential, especially after the antics of Aston.
In short, if (big IF) the new regs come in in 2022, then yes, there should be a greater number of entries vying for overall honours (hell, the LMP2 field will fancy their chances at the moment!). Unless Alonso comes back.
In short, if (big IF) the new regs come in in 2022, then yes, there should be a greater number of entries vying for overall honours (hell, the LMP2 field will fancy their chances at the moment!). Unless Alonso comes back.
I’ve long held the view that the ACO should steer clear of getting too involved in technical regs. I think instead they should work with organisers of other championships to make them eligible classes. Sticking with four classes, they could make Imsa Prototypes, NASCAR, Australian Supercars and BTCC to be the eligible classes (for example) if they are what are doing well and would draw the crowds. The eligible rule sets could be changed as needed each year to reflect what championships and rule sets are doing well around the world.
//j17 said:
IMSA and the FIA/ACO agreed to merge their regs...which generally seems to have been the FIA/ACO agreed to accept the IMSA regs.
You'll be able to race an LMDh (no, I don't know why we can't have a big H) car in either IMSA, the WEC, or at Le Mans but it's only the WEC/Le Mans where you'll definitely be able to race an LMH car (with a "Maybe"/"You never know" on LMH in IMSA).
Basically LMH has been shown up to be the huge white elephant it always was and the problem with chasing manufacturers, rather than giving them regs. and asking them to come play, if they are willing to follow those regs. Interestingly there are a lot of parallels with the story of GT1, which Daily Sports Car are covering a lot at the moment - started well with road cars, then got bent to please the manufacturers...who then pissed off after a couple of years and left them with nothing.
In the long run all I can see this achieving if forcing Toyota out of the WEC/Le Mans, as neither building your own car just to be hobbled so you can be beaten by cheaper LMDh cars, or just sticking a Toyota badge on another ORECA chassis does much for them as a company.
This is largely my take on things. Chasing the whims of manufacturers marketing departments isn’t exclusive to the ACO, look at F1 for example. ACO rules events have been particularly hard hit with maybe a mix of stubbornness and pride in wanting to set the agenda while being dragged in different directions by The OEM’s. You'll be able to race an LMDh (no, I don't know why we can't have a big H) car in either IMSA, the WEC, or at Le Mans but it's only the WEC/Le Mans where you'll definitely be able to race an LMH car (with a "Maybe"/"You never know" on LMH in IMSA).
Basically LMH has been shown up to be the huge white elephant it always was and the problem with chasing manufacturers, rather than giving them regs. and asking them to come play, if they are willing to follow those regs. Interestingly there are a lot of parallels with the story of GT1, which Daily Sports Car are covering a lot at the moment - started well with road cars, then got bent to please the manufacturers...who then pissed off after a couple of years and left them with nothing.
In the long run all I can see this achieving if forcing Toyota out of the WEC/Le Mans, as neither building your own car just to be hobbled so you can be beaten by cheaper LMDh cars, or just sticking a Toyota badge on another ORECA chassis does much for them as a company.
IMSA meanwhile struck the right balance with Dpi and more or less embarrassed the ACO with an abundance of manufacturers. The ACO are now forced to accept the as was DPi 2.0 formula while trying to grasp on to the Hypercar concept, the only ‘Hyper’ part of which is likely to be the price tag. I can’t see Hypercar lasting long, even before the coronavirus malarkey is factored in.
Maybe it’s stubbornness, maybe it’s in deference to Toyota who are the only major OEM to support Hypercar, and who bailed out the WEC when Peugeot scarpered on the eve of its debut. I feel for Toyota because they have been a cornerstone of the WEC And they could soon find themselves racing in a new class of one but this time being Challenged or beaten by OEM badges spending a fraction of their budget.
FredericRobinson said:
IMSA only got 3 manufacturers in DPI though, the Nissan not being anything to do with Nissan really, better than P1 ended up, or Hypercar, but not a super soaraway success, fortunately Cadillac were prepared to supply customer teams.
No-one at all has committed to LMDh yet.
Quite correct, Frederic, absolutely no-one has actually committed to to LMDh yet, but, both Signatech/Alpine and Peugeot have said they like the proposal and will be looking at the viability. Additionally Porsche have announced in a quite non-specific way an evaluation of the rules, which many have taken as an indication to enter.No-one at all has committed to LMDh yet.
We have to also remember that these new regs are not definite for 2022, they have sensibly allowed themselves some wiggle room on that so can delay if they feel the need.
And as //j17 says in another thread, we are about to enter into a period of severe financial uncertainty where manufacturers are going to be pulling in the budget purse strings so maybe now is the time that a cost effective way of going racing with your Brand's 'face' front and centre but without the need to spend silly amounts of money is the most attractive option.
With regards to the ACO asking the teams to input into the regs as mentioned above, I honestly think that has only been an issue in WEC. The other ACO mandated Series', ELMS and MLMC run full grids (remember, the WEC SuperSeason was promoted as being a full grid and then under delivered) with great racing and a stable business model (in normal times).
Maybe the actual answer, especially now with hindsight, is to do away with the fabled 'top class' of LMP1/Hypercar/LMDh and just go with what we already have that works. Would Le Mans with a field of LMP2, LMP3, GTE (Pro) and GT3 be such a bad thing? Factory cars are in GTE, maybe with a bolt on Hybrid unit for the green credentials, with an improved BoP we could theoretically see factory GTE fighting with Privateer LMP2 machinery for the overall win, almost like Le Mans used to be. It's a nice tangent that I can dream of!
The one thing for sure is that none of us know what will happen, hell even if they'll be a race to say goodbye to the LMP1s before the Hypercars arrive. If LMDh helps to get more cross competition in WEC and IMSA, then that can't be a bad thing.
Good efforts, but I'm still bewildered.
The good news is that 19 million Brits have had the virus, and not realised according to Manchester University, so herd immunity here we come, and the Oxford University vaccine has passed the first level of tests, and will be available in the summer. (Summer - the warmest season of the year, in the northern hemisphere from June to August)
The good news is that 19 million Brits have had the virus, and not realised according to Manchester University, so herd immunity here we come, and the Oxford University vaccine has passed the first level of tests, and will be available in the summer. (Summer - the warmest season of the year, in the northern hemisphere from June to August)
LawrieC said:
Good efforts, but I'm still bewildered.
The good news is that 19 million Brits have had the virus, and not realised according to Manchester University, so herd immunity here we come, and the Oxford University vaccine has passed the first level of tests, and will be available in the summer. (Summer - the warmest season of the year, in the northern hemisphere from June to August)
Indeed. Next year is looking good. This year...who knows? The good news is that 19 million Brits have had the virus, and not realised according to Manchester University, so herd immunity here we come, and the Oxford University vaccine has passed the first level of tests, and will be available in the summer. (Summer - the warmest season of the year, in the northern hemisphere from June to August)
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