Solid state and Semi-solid state batteries - Game Changer?
Discussion
Afternoon all,
A see a few reports on the R&D work being done by a lot of manufacturers on solid state and semi-solid state batteries for use in EV's. These promise less weight, faster charging times, more range, lower cost, etc.
If the car companies can deliver on all of the above it could be a genuine game changer for the EV car industry. Imagine a small to medium sized car with a real world 400 mile range and a 10-15 minute charge time (10-80%).
Will be interesting to see how quickly these can be brought to market and what this will mean for both current EV's and the second hand ICE market.
A see a few reports on the R&D work being done by a lot of manufacturers on solid state and semi-solid state batteries for use in EV's. These promise less weight, faster charging times, more range, lower cost, etc.
If the car companies can deliver on all of the above it could be a genuine game changer for the EV car industry. Imagine a small to medium sized car with a real world 400 mile range and a 10-15 minute charge time (10-80%).
Will be interesting to see how quickly these can be brought to market and what this will mean for both current EV's and the second hand ICE market.
If Solid state came into play, then you can ignore full charge up times as most would splash and dash like they do in ICE now. Putting in say 150 miles range within a minute or so is what matters. Charging stations would be not in use as often, then those that want to fill up, would just be like using a pump now.
Also if the public charging prices dropped dramatically that would help. 60-90p as it stands is way too much. 35p is even a bit steep but I think that is OK if you are using say a motorway station. 30p would be fine for local as it is only 5-7p more than charging up at home (standard rate).
Also if the public charging prices dropped dramatically that would help. 60-90p as it stands is way too much. 35p is even a bit steep but I think that is OK if you are using say a motorway station. 30p would be fine for local as it is only 5-7p more than charging up at home (standard rate).
I don't think solid-state batteries will necessarily be game-changers. I would imagine it would take a while to get beyond 350kW charging infrastructure, which is ubiquitous in the continental Europe.
Taycan Turbo gets close to the limit (over 300kW until a bit above 60% SoC, 18 minutes 10-80%) and has a one-stop range of 419 miles (ev-database, "real range" numbers, 15-minute charging stop); more mundane 800V EVs can also do the 10-80% in the same 18 minutes (smaller batteries). Higher power density is nice, but I'd wait to see what the production versions will be capable up (going from 4kg/kWh to 2.2-2.8 would be nice, but not a game changer).
Personally, I expect that by the time I might need a new battery (10 years from now), we'll be having the same discussion about sulfur batteries making the solid-state ones obsolete (current prototypes seem to be under 1.5kg/kWh).
Independent of the technology, I'd expect a replacement battery with a higher capacity and lower weight than the original should be available for about the same price as a set of premium tyres. This should be good news for the resale values.
Taycan Turbo gets close to the limit (over 300kW until a bit above 60% SoC, 18 minutes 10-80%) and has a one-stop range of 419 miles (ev-database, "real range" numbers, 15-minute charging stop); more mundane 800V EVs can also do the 10-80% in the same 18 minutes (smaller batteries). Higher power density is nice, but I'd wait to see what the production versions will be capable up (going from 4kg/kWh to 2.2-2.8 would be nice, but not a game changer).
Personally, I expect that by the time I might need a new battery (10 years from now), we'll be having the same discussion about sulfur batteries making the solid-state ones obsolete (current prototypes seem to be under 1.5kg/kWh).
Independent of the technology, I'd expect a replacement battery with a higher capacity and lower weight than the original should be available for about the same price as a set of premium tyres. This should be good news for the resale values.
PetrolHeadInRecovery said:
I don't think solid-state batteries will necessarily be game-changers.
I don't think EVs really need a game-changer anyway. The biggest barriers to adoption seem to be infrastructure and public perception, rather than the technology of the vehicles themselves. kambites said:
PetrolHeadInRecovery said:
I don't think solid-state batteries will necessarily be game-changers.
I don't think EVs really need a game-changer anyway. The biggest barriers to adoption seem to be infrastructure and public perception, rather than the technology of the vehicles themselves. Perception is more tricky. I'm constantly surprised by how surprised people are when I tell them we use the EV as an airplane replacement.
I'm invested in various battery outfits, all of whom are chasing the commercialisation of solid state batteries.
These are my observations after quite a lot of research/interest:
- Solid state batteries are definitely capable of near endless charge cycles and at least 2 times current li-ion energy density, which would effectively solve all battery issues in cars, but those that appear closest to delivering them at a commercial level are targeting lower initial performance than that, so there won't be an overnight revolution in battery performance that will immediately make former EV's 'worthless'. It will be an incremental increase in range and/or decrease in weight.
- It's impossible to say how close scalable, commercially viable solid state batteries are to becoming available. Significant manufacturing hurdles still exist.
- The end is in sight, finally, probably - due to the scale of investment. The idea of solid state batteries has been around for ages and has been proven multiple times, but it's only since EV's themselves became viable that massive investment into developing better batteries began. Today, the level of investment is easily above $100bn around the globe - for good reason, whoever files the first patents for commercially viable batteries will get the biggest payday in history - solid state batteries are a game changer.
- A little discussed advantage of solid state batteries is that they're actually cheaper and cleaner in material terms, they will eventually be far cleaner to produce than current batteries. They're also extremely stable, unlike li-ion which we know under certain stresses can become a bit... on fire...
- Ignore all the noise you hear from various 'supposedly close to mass production' companies regarding SS batteries. They're all chasing extra investment because this stuff is mind bogglingly expensive to get right. They're all in the race to revolutionise batteries and will all spout BS along that journey. That doesn't mean they're not serious, it just means that if one of them spouts BS, they all have to follow suit.
It's all very exciting stuff, not just for cars - imagine your smartphone's battery life one day... But for now, whilst I would suggest it's a great area of ET to invest in and follow, it's not going to have an imminent effect on your life and shouldn't have an effect on anything you choose to buy that needs batteries in the meantime.
These are my observations after quite a lot of research/interest:
- Solid state batteries are definitely capable of near endless charge cycles and at least 2 times current li-ion energy density, which would effectively solve all battery issues in cars, but those that appear closest to delivering them at a commercial level are targeting lower initial performance than that, so there won't be an overnight revolution in battery performance that will immediately make former EV's 'worthless'. It will be an incremental increase in range and/or decrease in weight.
- It's impossible to say how close scalable, commercially viable solid state batteries are to becoming available. Significant manufacturing hurdles still exist.
- The end is in sight, finally, probably - due to the scale of investment. The idea of solid state batteries has been around for ages and has been proven multiple times, but it's only since EV's themselves became viable that massive investment into developing better batteries began. Today, the level of investment is easily above $100bn around the globe - for good reason, whoever files the first patents for commercially viable batteries will get the biggest payday in history - solid state batteries are a game changer.
- A little discussed advantage of solid state batteries is that they're actually cheaper and cleaner in material terms, they will eventually be far cleaner to produce than current batteries. They're also extremely stable, unlike li-ion which we know under certain stresses can become a bit... on fire...
- Ignore all the noise you hear from various 'supposedly close to mass production' companies regarding SS batteries. They're all chasing extra investment because this stuff is mind bogglingly expensive to get right. They're all in the race to revolutionise batteries and will all spout BS along that journey. That doesn't mean they're not serious, it just means that if one of them spouts BS, they all have to follow suit.
It's all very exciting stuff, not just for cars - imagine your smartphone's battery life one day... But for now, whilst I would suggest it's a great area of ET to invest in and follow, it's not going to have an imminent effect on your life and shouldn't have an effect on anything you choose to buy that needs batteries in the meantime.
Cristio Nasser said:
It opens the door to 1000 mile and/or acceptable towing ranges, faster charging, little to no degradation, etc. But more usefully batteries that are less then half the size and weight for a given capacity. That frees up EV packaging constraints considerably.
Sure, all this is very nice. But I don't think it would make current tech obsolete overnight (even if Toyota wishes on a star... 
).A real-life, 1000 mile range would require about 250-300kWh battery, so charging on a 350kW charger would take a while (until the Megawatt Charging System stations become common).
Lightweight sports cars should already be feasible, Caterham is apparently working on one at under 1200kg, lighter than Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ. Alas, producing affordable, lightweight sports cars profitably seems to be a challenge independent of the drivetrain.
Toyota and Subaru were both lauded as proper lightweight sports cars - and were promptly outsold by Ford F150 Lightning pretty much immediately after it came to the market (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_86#Sales and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_F-150_Lightning...
PetrolHeadInRecovery said:
Cristio Nasser said:
It opens the door to 1000 mile and/or acceptable towing ranges, faster charging, little to no degradation, etc. But more usefully batteries that are less then half the size and weight for a given capacity. That frees up EV packaging constraints considerably.
Sure, all this is very nice. But I don't think it would make current tech obsolete overnight (even if Toyota wishes on a star... ).A real-life, 1000 mile range would require about 250-300kWh battery, so charging on a 350kW charger would take a while (until the Megawatt Charging System stations become common).
Lightweight sports cars should already be feasible, Caterham is apparently working on one at under 1200kg, lighter than Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ. Alas, producing affordable, lightweight sports cars profitably seems to be a challenge independent of the drivetrain.
Toyota and Subaru were both lauded as proper lightweight sports cars - and were promptly outsold by Ford F150 Lightning pretty much immediately after it came to the market (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_86#Sales and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_F-150_Lightning...
enough', on the basis it's fast enough to charge the car fully in the length of time people would typically stop for on a long journey even if they didn't need to charge/fuel. Drivers are humans, humans need to visit the loo and eat lunch etc, a 300kw charger can fully charge a car in less time than those things take so what exactly is gained by aiming for faster?
Cristio Nasser said:
It opens the door to 1000 mile and/or acceptable towing ranges, faster charging, little to no degradation, etc. But more usefully batteries that are less then half the size and weight for a given capacity. That frees up EV packaging constraints considerably.
As per my previous post, those gains won't happen overnight once solid state is commercially viable. But longer term that is pretty much in provable range of the tech. Perhaps not 1000 miles but maybe 600 miles. Although I suspect that most owners would prefer the same 300 miles long range EV's already have today, and half the battery weight.There's a lot of obsession over range but I think given the choice most seasoned EV owners would accept that they don't actually need more range and would prefer less weight if it were possible. I would. I don't wish to drive more than 200 miles without a break, I never did before EV. I can already charge enough to carry on in as little as 15 minutes so I already have the range and charge time I need - thus, I'd take the weight saving of SS batteries over range, because that would make the car more fun for the 99% of time when I'm not charging it on a journey.
If they’re coming, which I think they are, the smart are those who wait. Otherwise a lot of investment in Betamax. Buyer and producer. I know everyone is renting and don’t really care but I don’t think I would be putting serious money in an EV as the advent of solid state draws nearer, it’s going to be a massive step change. I would expect it will put further friction on EV sales in a year or two.
Honda have just opened a pilot factory:
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-tech/2025/...
On the two wheeled front solid state batteries could be game changing as, outside of city runabouts, existing EV motorbikes are struggling with limited range, excessive weight and (usually) modest charging rates leaving an ineffective finished product. Little wonder the manufacturer of the nearest to a useable product went bust. Doubling range for the same mass would bring EV into line with existing ICE capabilities, although still on the lardy side.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-tech/2025/...
On the two wheeled front solid state batteries could be game changing as, outside of city runabouts, existing EV motorbikes are struggling with limited range, excessive weight and (usually) modest charging rates leaving an ineffective finished product. Little wonder the manufacturer of the nearest to a useable product went bust. Doubling range for the same mass would bring EV into line with existing ICE capabilities, although still on the lardy side.
DMZ said:
If they’re coming, which I think they are, the smart are those who wait. Otherwise a lot of investment in Betamax.
I don't think the analogy works because there's to concept of the individual investing in an ecosystem like there was with VHS vs Betamax. If you bought a Betamax player you had the problem that everyone stopped making Betamax tapes; if someone buys a liquid cell EV now, it will still be just as good at being an EV in ten years time whether the new market goes to solid state or not. Also, whilst they do have a higher potential ceiling, I'm not convinced early solid-state batteries are going to any better than current liquid-electrolyte cells anyway.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 1st February 10:38
kambites said:
DMZ said:
If they’re coming, which I think they are, the smart are those who wait. Otherwise a lot of investment in Betamax.
I don't think the analogy works because there's to concept of the individual investing in an ecosystem like there was with VHS vs Betamax. If you bought a Betamax player you had the problem that everyone stopped making Betamax tapes; if someone buys a liquid cell EV now, it will still be just as good at being an EV in ten years time whether the new market goes to solid state or not. If a particular product works today then buy it. What may be available in 3,4 5 years time is irrelevant.
I had a mate with a Betamax back in the late 70s and it was absolutely fine for the quite a few years he owned it, but eventually got replaced. Obsessing about future redundancy is a bit strange.
TheDeuce said:
As per my previous post, those gains won't happen overnight once solid state is commercially viable. But longer term that is pretty much in provable range of the tech. Perhaps not 1000 miles but maybe 600 miles. Although I suspect that most owners would prefer the same 300 miles long range EV's already have today, and half the battery weight.
There's a lot of obsession over range but I think given the choice most seasoned EV owners would accept that they don't actually need more range and would prefer less weight if it were possible. I would. I don't wish to drive more than 200 miles without a break, I never did before EV. I can already charge enough to carry on in as little as 15 minutes so I already have the range and charge time I need - thus, I'd take the weight saving of SS batteries over range, because that would make the car more fun for the 99% of time when I'm not charging it on a journey.
400 miles would be the sweet spot for me, giving a real range of 350 with leeway top and bottom. Our Kona has a quoted range of 304 miles which is generally pretty accurate leaving a comfortable guaranteed 250. There's a lot of obsession over range but I think given the choice most seasoned EV owners would accept that they don't actually need more range and would prefer less weight if it were possible. I would. I don't wish to drive more than 200 miles without a break, I never did before EV. I can already charge enough to carry on in as little as 15 minutes so I already have the range and charge time I need - thus, I'd take the weight saving of SS batteries over range, because that would make the car more fun for the 99% of time when I'm not charging it on a journey.
In reality with our usage (mostly fast A roads) it's up to 340 in the summer and 275+ in the winter. Currently sitting at estimated 288 miles, fully charged after recent sub zero trips. This will probably drop to around 278 miles once the heating is on, 3°C outside as I type - although typically some of that is recovered as the cabin heats up. Winter range was sufficiently important to us that I specified the optional (and expensive) heat pump.
400 miles at 2/3 the weight would be perfect.
kambites said:
DMZ said:
If they’re coming, which I think they are, the smart are those who wait. Otherwise a lot of investment in Betamax.
I don't think the analogy works because there's to concept of the individual investing in an ecosystem like there was with VHS vs Betamax. If you bought a Betamax player you had the problem that everyone stopped making Betamax tapes; if someone buys a liquid cell EV now, it will still be just as good at being an EV in ten years time whether the new market goes to solid state or not. Also, whilst they do have a higher potential ceiling, I'm not convinced early solid-state batteries are going to any better than current liquid-electrolyte cells anyway.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 1st February 10:38
Ankh87 said:
Also if the public charging prices dropped dramatically that would help. 60-90p as it stands is way too much. 35p is even a bit steep but I think that is OK if you are using say a motorway station. 30p would be fine for local as it is only 5-7p more than charging up at home (standard rate).
It's not going to be 35p anytime soon. Firstly commercial electricity supply is actually more than your domestic supply so think 30p per kWh for the likes of gridserve to buy. They then HAVE to charge you 20% vat on top of that. So it's 36p without then adding costs of chargers, land rent, construction, maintenance, helplines etc on top.Yes public charging is expensive but everyone seems to think it's because the charging companies are taking the piss. They aren't sadly. None of them are profitable. It's rock and hard place for everyone inlvolved
drgoatboy said:
Ankh87 said:
Also if the public charging prices dropped dramatically that would help. 60-90p as it stands is way too much. 35p is even a bit steep but I think that is OK if you are using say a motorway station. 30p would be fine for local as it is only 5-7p more than charging up at home (standard rate).
It's not going to be 35p anytime soon. Firstly commercial electricity supply is actually more than your domestic supply so think 30p per kWh for the likes of gridserve to buy. They then HAVE to charge you 20% vat on top of that. So it's 36p without then adding costs of chargers, land rent, construction, maintenance, helplines etc on top.Yes public charging is expensive but everyone seems to think it's because the charging companies are taking the piss. They aren't sadly. None of them are profitable. It's rock and hard place for everyone inlvolved
Longer term, competition and probably some governmental pressure will bring prices down. Apparently street chargers for residents are far cheaper once subscribed to the relevant scheme, so it's not as if those that can't charge at home will forever be forced to pay 80p/kwh to drive a car.
drgoatboy said:
Ankh87 said:
Also if the public charging prices dropped dramatically that would help. 60-90p as it stands is way too much. 35p is even a bit steep but I think that is OK if you are using say a motorway station. 30p would be fine for local as it is only 5-7p more than charging up at home (standard rate).
It's not going to be 35p anytime soon. Firstly commercial electricity supply is actually more than your domestic supply so think 30p per kWh for the likes of gridserve to buy. They then HAVE to charge you 20% vat on top of that. So it's 36p without then adding costs of chargers, land rent, construction, maintenance, helplines etc on top.Yes public charging is expensive but everyone seems to think it's because the charging companies are taking the piss. They aren't sadly. None of them are profitable. It's rock and hard place for everyone inlvolved
Ionity passport power is around 0.26£/kWh in several countries (France, Sweden, Finland,...). It's a bit harder to assess profitability, but they seem to be still expanding steadily).
EC Funding (Connecting Europe Facility includes charging network calls) probably plays a big role, winning projects get 50% of CAPEX reimbursed (based on a quick glance).
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