Charging Infrastructure
Discussion
Visiting my daughter at University in central London the other day (no congestion charge, heavily discounted parking 
) I was struck my the number of petrol stations that now have banks of rapid DC chargers.
Much more than street slow chargers this is exactly what is needed. As more people have EVs with 150kW+ charging (and the latest offerings from China in the sub £20k bracket generally do) then a quick 15-20 minute charge once a week will be plenty for anyone who doesn’t have charging at home. Once there is more competition surely prices will behave forced down to close to domestic prices as well, though government really ought to reduce vat to 5% (maybe by increasing VED on new and nearly new petrol and diesel cars?)
The ability to draw customers in for some shopping will be a big incentive to more garages going this way and presumably in time they will reduce the space allocated to petrol pumps as demand falls
The hurdles are disappearing fast. We will look back in 15 years time or so and wonder what all the fuss was about!
) I was struck my the number of petrol stations that now have banks of rapid DC chargers.Much more than street slow chargers this is exactly what is needed. As more people have EVs with 150kW+ charging (and the latest offerings from China in the sub £20k bracket generally do) then a quick 15-20 minute charge once a week will be plenty for anyone who doesn’t have charging at home. Once there is more competition surely prices will behave forced down to close to domestic prices as well, though government really ought to reduce vat to 5% (maybe by increasing VED on new and nearly new petrol and diesel cars?)
The ability to draw customers in for some shopping will be a big incentive to more garages going this way and presumably in time they will reduce the space allocated to petrol pumps as demand falls
The hurdles are disappearing fast. We will look back in 15 years time or so and wonder what all the fuss was about!
It’s good that the petrol stations (soon ex) now commonly publish their EV Kwh rate too.
That should bring down prices, from the same price per mile as fosisil fuelled cars to the cheaper tariff.
Home charging is obviously best @ 7pKwh/2p a mile. Compared to 60p+!
Hopefully more reasonable public charging to come.
That should bring down prices, from the same price per mile as fosisil fuelled cars to the cheaper tariff.
Home charging is obviously best @ 7pKwh/2p a mile. Compared to 60p+!
Hopefully more reasonable public charging to come.
ContactName said:
Visiting my daughter at University in central London the other day (no congestion charge, heavily discounted parking ) I was struck my the number of petrol stations that now have banks of rapid DC chargers.
Much more than street slow chargers this is exactly what is needed. As more people have EVs with 150kW+ charging (and the latest offerings from China in the sub £20k bracket generally do) then a quick 15-20 minute charge once a week will be plenty for anyone who doesn’t have charging at home. Once there is more competition surely prices will behave forced down to close to domestic prices as well, though government really ought to reduce vat to 5% (maybe by increasing VED on new and nearly new petrol and diesel cars?)
The ability to draw customers in for some shopping will be a big incentive to more garages going this way and presumably in time they will reduce the space allocated to petrol pumps as demand falls
The hurdles are disappearing fast. We will look back in 15 years time or so and wonder what all the fuss was about!
Fully agree! The advantage of DC charging is that potential revenue per unit are much higher, so there's headroom to compete with the price. ) I was struck my the number of petrol stations that now have banks of rapid DC chargers.Much more than street slow chargers this is exactly what is needed. As more people have EVs with 150kW+ charging (and the latest offerings from China in the sub £20k bracket generally do) then a quick 15-20 minute charge once a week will be plenty for anyone who doesn’t have charging at home. Once there is more competition surely prices will behave forced down to close to domestic prices as well, though government really ought to reduce vat to 5% (maybe by increasing VED on new and nearly new petrol and diesel cars?)
The ability to draw customers in for some shopping will be a big incentive to more garages going this way and presumably in time they will reduce the space allocated to petrol pumps as demand falls
The hurdles are disappearing fast. We will look back in 15 years time or so and wonder what all the fuss was about!
With the current vehicle fleet, an AC charger maxes out at about 200kWh/day per charger (two ~10 hour sessions, vehicles limited to 11kW, big batteries plugged in almost empty, some idle time because charging gets completed at 3.30AM...).
An 800V 350kW charger could easily reach 1500kWh in practice (three 40kWh charges an hour for half a day). Similar realistic maximum to the above AC example would be ~5000kWh per day (close to 100% occupancy, mostly 800V cars).
DC charging could turn this volume advantage either into higher margins (which happens most of the time) or into cheaper prices (which is starting to happen in continental Europe). A DC charger location could buy electricity cheaper and/or do demand shifting (local storage to take advantage of cheap spot-market electricity).
Tens of € or £ of profit margin per charger for AC, hundreds (or likely several hundreds) per DC one. Thus, a single DC charger has roughly the same profit potential as selling gas in a gas station ( source), and e.g. IONITY averages six chargers per location.
IONITY network had 150 locations in June 2020 ( source), now close to 700 with 96 locations under construction ( source).
compared to 2 years ago, it's night and day better. I now no longer plan trips around charging at all, I just head pull in at whatever rapid charger my car spots first when I'm down below 100 miles range on a longer trip. Ten minutes later... another 100 or so miles are added.
On Friday I had to go from Lincolnshire to Bridge end in south Wales unexpectedly. I started with about 60% charge as I hadn't realised I needed to plug in the night before - that would have been a nightmare in the not too distant past! But I reckon by the time I actually charged en-route I must have already passed at least ten rapid charger stations, each with countless chargers. I was in no rush to stop, so I didn't bother until around lunchtime when I wanted to grab some food and a pee regardless. I made another 10 minute charge stop on the return leg the same day.
In fact, it's now so easy that if someone offered me to double the range of my EV free of charge, I'd ask if they could instead leave the range as it was and take out half the battery weight. 250 miles is quite simply 'enough' in this tiny island we call home.
On Friday I had to go from Lincolnshire to Bridge end in south Wales unexpectedly. I started with about 60% charge as I hadn't realised I needed to plug in the night before - that would have been a nightmare in the not too distant past! But I reckon by the time I actually charged en-route I must have already passed at least ten rapid charger stations, each with countless chargers. I was in no rush to stop, so I didn't bother until around lunchtime when I wanted to grab some food and a pee regardless. I made another 10 minute charge stop on the return leg the same day.
In fact, it's now so easy that if someone offered me to double the range of my EV free of charge, I'd ask if they could instead leave the range as it was and take out half the battery weight. 250 miles is quite simply 'enough' in this tiny island we call home.
I didn't coin the phrase, but it makes a lot of sense - it's not really range anxiety but charger anxiety. Getting access to chargers that are available, easy to use and don't cost a fortune to use is key, at which point the range generally is much less of a problem. Fix the charger network and it opens up a lot more customers to buy an EV - though its classic chicken and egg though, which one comes first.
Here in the US I now have the best of both worlds. I can use Electrify America (and others, but EA have the widest fast charging network) and Tesla Superchargers! Ok, so I have to use an adaptor for the Tesla ones, but it's a minor inconvenience for access to the thousands of charging stations it provides. I really don't have an issue going anywhere - just a case of waiting a little longer than I might want (our car only does 150kW charging at best)!
Now, availability is improving but is usability? Way too many times do people have issues with different networks etc. The whole 'you need an account to use this network' crap is stupid, and stop making us have an app for each one! Make it easy and simple. You don't force customers to have a bloody app to use a Shell or BP petrol station, so why do I have to do that for electrons? Grrr
Here in the US I now have the best of both worlds. I can use Electrify America (and others, but EA have the widest fast charging network) and Tesla Superchargers! Ok, so I have to use an adaptor for the Tesla ones, but it's a minor inconvenience for access to the thousands of charging stations it provides. I really don't have an issue going anywhere - just a case of waiting a little longer than I might want (our car only does 150kW charging at best)!
Now, availability is improving but is usability? Way too many times do people have issues with different networks etc. The whole 'you need an account to use this network' crap is stupid, and stop making us have an app for each one! Make it easy and simple. You don't force customers to have a bloody app to use a Shell or BP petrol station, so why do I have to do that for electrons? Grrr
ContactName said:
Yes and with newer batteries not needing to be preheated the idea that you have to plan your en route charging will slowly fade.
It does rely on cheaper EVs with fats charging, but unlike the rest of Europe we don’t need to cut ourselves off from Chinese brands that will offer this.
Mine only charges at 210kw, but I'd be totally happy with any EV that could do at least 150kw now. Decent and easy to use 150+kw chargers are everywhere now, and they add charge at around 600mph in the middle band of charging, that's fast enough to not stop more often or for longer than most people would stop for anyway on a longer journey - and certainly should stop for a break that often.It does rely on cheaper EVs with fats charging, but unlike the rest of Europe we don’t need to cut ourselves off from Chinese brands that will offer this.
I bet some people still fanatically work out a A, B & C charging plan for any long journey though - some people like the maths exercise I think
But for me, it's been well over a year now since I've given it any thought so I'm done with worrying. I fully expect that most future buyers will never really think very much about it at all.
ContactName said:
Visiting my daughter at University in central London the other day (no congestion charge, heavily discounted parking ) I was struck my the number of petrol stations that now have banks of rapid DC chargers.
Much more than street slow chargers this is exactly what is needed. As more people have EVs with 150kW+ charging (and the latest offerings from China in the sub £20k bracket generally do) then a quick 15-20 minute charge once a week will be plenty for anyone who doesn’t have charging at home. Once there is more competition surely prices will behave forced down to close to domestic prices as well, though government really ought to reduce vat to 5% (maybe by increasing VED on new and nearly new petrol and diesel cars?)
The ability to draw customers in for some shopping will be a big incentive to more garages going this way and presumably in time they will reduce the space allocated to petrol pumps as demand falls
The hurdles are disappearing fast. We will look back in 15 years time or so and wonder what all the fuss was about!
42m vehicles on the road in the UK^ so it ain't happening any time soon. Yes not even 15 years. ) I was struck my the number of petrol stations that now have banks of rapid DC chargers.Much more than street slow chargers this is exactly what is needed. As more people have EVs with 150kW+ charging (and the latest offerings from China in the sub £20k bracket generally do) then a quick 15-20 minute charge once a week will be plenty for anyone who doesn’t have charging at home. Once there is more competition surely prices will behave forced down to close to domestic prices as well, though government really ought to reduce vat to 5% (maybe by increasing VED on new and nearly new petrol and diesel cars?)
The ability to draw customers in for some shopping will be a big incentive to more garages going this way and presumably in time they will reduce the space allocated to petrol pumps as demand falls
The hurdles are disappearing fast. We will look back in 15 years time or so and wonder what all the fuss was about!
^less than 3% are EV
TX.
But what % of the fleet will be EVs by 2030, 2040 etc?
If EV drivers are spending 20 minutes recharging they are likely to be more profitable in terms of collateral shopping etc and if the footfall from ICE drops by say 30%, at what point does it become more cost effective to go EV only for a station and avoid the costs of storing and selling petrol?
If EV drivers are spending 20 minutes recharging they are likely to be more profitable in terms of collateral shopping etc and if the footfall from ICE drops by say 30%, at what point does it become more cost effective to go EV only for a station and avoid the costs of storing and selling petrol?
Terminator X said:
42m vehicles on the road in the UK^ so it ain't happening any time soon. Yes not even 15 years.
^less than 3% are EV
TX.
On the other hand, gas stations care about profitability, not about number of vehicles.^less than 3% are EV
TX.
It seems that the number of LPG pumps in the UK went from 100 in 1998 to 2000 peak (don't know the year) to less than 430 today ( source1, source2).
Couldn't find statistics of private LPG vehicles (on the phone), but total consumption seems to have stayed at the same level between 2001 and 2017 ( source). Might be driven by public sector, but I'd assume the number of private LPG cars on the road hasn't dropped by 80% from the peak.
My guess: petrol and diesel will remain available, you may need to drive further to get it and eventually local de facto monopolies will emerge, driving the price up.
PetrolHeadInRecovery said:
On the other hand, gas stations care about profitability, not about number of vehicles.
It seems that the number of LPG pumps in the UK went from 100 in 1998 to 2000 peak (don't know the year) to less than 430 today ( source1, source2).
Couldn't find statistics of private LPG vehicles (on the phone), but total consumption seems to have stayed at the same level between 2001 and 2017 ( source). Might be driven by public sector, but I'd assume the number of private LPG cars on the road hasn't dropped by 80% from the peak.
My guess: petrol and diesel will remain available, you may need to drive further to get it and eventually local de facto monopolies will emerge, driving the price up.
Can you imagine a harder group of people to make money from than LPG users? Most cars converted to LPG were already fairly old, so relatively cheap - and then converted as some cost to use cheaper fuel than they originally did. That suggests a (sensible) mindset of the drivers to seek value by investing in the right places to save money overall. These are not people that impulse buy a load of overpriced snacks at a petrol station.It seems that the number of LPG pumps in the UK went from 100 in 1998 to 2000 peak (don't know the year) to less than 430 today ( source1, source2).
Couldn't find statistics of private LPG vehicles (on the phone), but total consumption seems to have stayed at the same level between 2001 and 2017 ( source). Might be driven by public sector, but I'd assume the number of private LPG cars on the road hasn't dropped by 80% from the peak.
My guess: petrol and diesel will remain available, you may need to drive further to get it and eventually local de facto monopolies will emerge, driving the price up.
You could probably say the opposite for most current and future EV drivers, who by definition will be driving far newer cars because they value/can afford a newer car more than they value absolute value for their ££ spend. EV drivers charging will also have to stop for at least ten minutes typically, so they have time to get tempted to buy some crap they don't need to pass the time. It's like being stuck with a delay at the airport, all there is to do is eat and shop...
I'm generalising of course! But if ran a network of petrol stations I know which group I'd rather have through the door.
TheDeuce said:
Can you imagine a harder group of people to make money from than LPG users? Most cars converted to LPG were already fairly old, so relatively cheap - and then converted as some cost to use cheaper fuel than they originally did. That suggests a (sensible) mindset of the drivers to seek value by investing in the right places to save money overall. These are not people that impulse buy a load of overpriced snacks at a petrol station.
You could probably say the opposite for most current and future EV drivers, who by definition will be driving far newer cars because they value/can afford a newer car more than they value absolute value for their ££ spend. EV drivers charging will also have to stop for at least ten minutes typically, so they have time to get tempted to buy some crap they don't need to pass the time. It's like being stuck with a delay at the airport, all there is to do is eat and shop...
I'm generalising of course! But if ran a network of petrol stations I know which group I'd rather have through the door.
There wasa bit of a mve to 'forecourt' LPG for cooking and sometimes heating in boats. You could probably say the opposite for most current and future EV drivers, who by definition will be driving far newer cars because they value/can afford a newer car more than they value absolute value for their ££ spend. EV drivers charging will also have to stop for at least ten minutes typically, so they have time to get tempted to buy some crap they don't need to pass the time. It's like being stuck with a delay at the airport, all there is to do is eat and shop...
I'm generalising of course! But if ran a network of petrol stations I know which group I'd rather have through the door.
I think it's still quite common in motorhomes?
So you have all that infrastructure and all the trade that happens is a few older people in anoraks wanting 5 or 10 litres at most.
They might buy some diesel at the same time!
15 years ago, there were some good cars with big petrol engines which made LPG attractive both for the £/mile and the extra range.
I'm not sure that'sreally true of cars which are a bit newer? 10 yearsago if you wanted lots of power o nthe cheap, there were some diesels to look at.
Now many of the cars which might have been tempting to run on LPG, X5 perhaps, the VED scares off the economy-minded driver!
Not been to the Netherlands lately, LPG used to be 'normal' there?
OutInTheShed said:
TheDeuce said:
Can you imagine a harder group of people to make money from than LPG users? Most cars converted to LPG were already fairly old, so relatively cheap - and then converted as some cost to use cheaper fuel than they originally did. That suggests a (sensible) mindset of the drivers to seek value by investing in the right places to save money overall. These are not people that impulse buy a load of overpriced snacks at a petrol station.
You could probably say the opposite for most current and future EV drivers, who by definition will be driving far newer cars because they value/can afford a newer car more than they value absolute value for their ££ spend. EV drivers charging will also have to stop for at least ten minutes typically, so they have time to get tempted to buy some crap they don't need to pass the time. It's like being stuck with a delay at the airport, all there is to do is eat and shop...
I'm generalising of course! But if ran a network of petrol stations I know which group I'd rather have through the door.
There wasa bit of a mve to 'forecourt' LPG for cooking and sometimes heating in boats. You could probably say the opposite for most current and future EV drivers, who by definition will be driving far newer cars because they value/can afford a newer car more than they value absolute value for their ££ spend. EV drivers charging will also have to stop for at least ten minutes typically, so they have time to get tempted to buy some crap they don't need to pass the time. It's like being stuck with a delay at the airport, all there is to do is eat and shop...
I'm generalising of course! But if ran a network of petrol stations I know which group I'd rather have through the door.
I think it's still quite common in motorhomes?
So you have all that infrastructure and all the trade that happens is a few older people in anoraks wanting 5 or 10 litres at most.
They might buy some diesel at the same time!
15 years ago, there were some good cars with big petrol engines which made LPG attractive both for the £/mile and the extra range.
I'm not sure that'sreally true of cars which are a bit newer? 10 yearsago if you wanted lots of power o nthe cheap, there were some diesels to look at.
Now many of the cars which might have been tempting to run on LPG, X5 perhaps, the VED scares off the economy-minded driver!
Not been to the Netherlands lately, LPG used to be 'normal' there?
As an anecdote, Mantorp Circle K in Sweden was an interesting case (in August): there were long (10-15 minutes, it seemed to me) queues for petrol/diesel pumps. On the same site, there was a 6-charger IONITY station (close to 100% occupancy) and another at least 6 Circle K HPC chargers (possibly new location, a few of them free).
The gas station was just outside the track, the first stop for track day attendees to fill up. There are other stations a few hundred meters away, so the queues must cost them some business. But still, investing in additional chargers seemed to have a better ROI than fuel pumps.
I assume that once you have the location set up and the volume goes up, an additional charger (list price ~25k€ for a 350kW one) might pay for itself in a few (summer) months.
Actually, I really like the new model of high speed chargers at super markets, they seem to be popping up at several stores now. The really great thing about them is that they tend to be very close to major roads so not much more of a detour than a service station, but generally a little cheaper. But then whilst you wait 10-20 mins to charge, you're at a genuinely useful place to shop for good value food, not some over-priced service station. The best thing is, there is always something useful to buy from a supermarket even if it's an unplanned stop - it's never going to be wasted time or time you have to occupy yourself for the sake of filling.
This is great for supermarkets too, better than them selling cheap fuel as there is a very high likelihood that each person coming to fill up with electricity will be there at least long enough to enter the main store and spend a fair few quid - as opposed to a single twix from the petrol station mini shop.
This is great for supermarkets too, better than them selling cheap fuel as there is a very high likelihood that each person coming to fill up with electricity will be there at least long enough to enter the main store and spend a fair few quid - as opposed to a single twix from the petrol station mini shop.
TheDeuce said:
Actually, I really like the new model of high speed chargers at super markets, they seem to be popping up at several stores now. The really great thing about them is that they tend to be very close to major roads so not much more of a detour than a service station, but generally a little cheaper.
J36 M4. One side is Sarn services with Applegreen and Tesla, Starbucks etcThe otherwise is Sainsbury's with their own rapid chargers, KFC, Mcarthur Glenn village etc.
Services are often busier.
PetrolHeadInRecovery said:
I'd imagine LPG was even more of a "loss-leader" product than petrol/diesel are for the petrol stations today. I think the "barely breaking even" rule in the article I linked to also applies in Europe, and price-conscious motorists can - for now - take their business to the competition.
As an anecdote, Mantorp Circle K in Sweden was an interesting case (in August): there were long (10-15 minutes, it seemed to me) queues for petrol/diesel pumps. On the same site, there was a 6-charger IONITY station (close to 100% occupancy) and another at least 6 Circle K HPC chargers (possibly new location, a few of them free).
The gas station was just outside the track, the first stop for track day attendees to fill up. There are other stations a few hundred meters away, so the queues must cost them some business. But still, investing in additional chargers seemed to have a better ROI than fuel pumps.
I assume that once you have the location set up and the volume goes up, an additional charger (list price ~25k€ for a 350kW one) might pay for itself in a few (summer) months.
I'd hazard a guess that track day people faff around and cause queues nearly as much as boat owners do?As an anecdote, Mantorp Circle K in Sweden was an interesting case (in August): there were long (10-15 minutes, it seemed to me) queues for petrol/diesel pumps. On the same site, there was a 6-charger IONITY station (close to 100% occupancy) and another at least 6 Circle K HPC chargers (possibly new location, a few of them free).
The gas station was just outside the track, the first stop for track day attendees to fill up. There are other stations a few hundred meters away, so the queues must cost them some business. But still, investing in additional chargers seemed to have a better ROI than fuel pumps.
I assume that once you have the location set up and the volume goes up, an additional charger (list price ~25k€ for a 350kW one) might pay for itself in a few (summer) months.
I can't remember queueing more than acouple of minutes for petrol or diesel, apart from with a boat and once in 40 years during some 'fuel crisis' or other.
The charging infrastructure seems to have raced ahead this year, even in Devon and Cornwall.
18 months ago, I could have told you about instances of night-time A303 closures and the like which could have been a right wind-up for getting to a charger if you cocked up. Now it's probably easier than going a long way on a motorbike with a small tank.
Evanivitch said:
TheDeuce said:
Actually, I really like the new model of high speed chargers at super markets, they seem to be popping up at several stores now. The really great thing about them is that they tend to be very close to major roads so not much more of a detour than a service station, but generally a little cheaper.
J36 M4. One side is Sarn services with Applegreen and Tesla, Starbucks etcThe otherwise is Sainsbury's with their own rapid chargers, KFC, Mcarthur Glenn village etc.
Services are often busier.
In fairness many supermarkets did initially install lower capacity chargers, I think they jumped too soon and got the maths wrong... If you consider the average shopping time in a supermarket, the charger would want to be at least 100kw to make it a no brainer to make an effort to charge there.
OutInTheShed said:
I'd hazard a guess that track day people faff around and cause queues nearly as much as boat owners do?
I can't remember queueing more than acouple of minutes for petrol or diesel, apart from with a boat and once in 40 years during some 'fuel crisis' or other.
The charging infrastructure seems to have raced ahead this year, even in Devon and Cornwall.
18 months ago, I could have told you about instances of night-time A303 closures and the like which could have been a right wind-up for getting to a charger if you cocked up. Now it's probably easier than going a long way on a motorbike with a small tank.
I think campers were overrepresented in the queue. Didn't have a chance to collect extensive statistics; needed to cram a quick lunch, grabbing a coffee and walking the dog into the long, 20-minute charge stop. I can't remember queueing more than acouple of minutes for petrol or diesel, apart from with a boat and once in 40 years during some 'fuel crisis' or other.
The charging infrastructure seems to have raced ahead this year, even in Devon and Cornwall.
18 months ago, I could have told you about instances of night-time A303 closures and the like which could have been a right wind-up for getting to a charger if you cocked up. Now it's probably easier than going a long way on a motorbike with a small tank.
It seems to be shopping rather than faffing around that causes the queues (and, TBF, also EVs staying plugged in after the charge has been completed). Chargers in shopping centres is a good idea (they usually have the grid connection needed), but sometimes the walking distance is a problem even if you just grab a coffee.
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