Ford slashes EV spend by 25%
Discussion
Some on PH have been vocal about the merits of hybrids over full-on battery-electric vehicles. And today the folks in Dearborn would seem to be in agreement:
"The canceled electric SUV could potentially cost Ford $1.5 billion in expenses and a special non-cash charge of $400 million."
"EV sales growth across the industry has slowed down, and automakers of all stripes are reining in expectations about the shift to electric vehicles."
Article here:
https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/21/24225177/ford-e...
It's not the concept of a BEV that's not wanted, it's the current crop of very expensive BEVs, with poor charging infrastructure experience for very many people, coupled with a dealer network that can't or won't repair batteries and the other costly BEV components.
If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
SteveKTMer said:
It's not the concept of a BEV that's not wanted, it's the current crop of very expensive BEVs, with poor charging infrastructure experience for very many people, coupled with a dealer network that can't or won't repair batteries and the other costly BEV components.
If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
I agree. That would help shake off the stigma around EVs, that they are somehow not as durable as petrol cars. From what I've seen that is not borne out by the facts which prove electric cars last longer and do more miles with less maintenance. However it seems that people still think that the trigger's broom nature of combustion engines means they will last longer. Make batteries replaceable easily and I think much of this misconception would be lost.If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
SteveKTMer said:
It's not the concept of a BEV that's not wanted, it's the current crop of very expensive BEVs, with poor charging infrastructure experience for very many people, coupled with a dealer network that can't or won't repair batteries and the other costly BEV components.
If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
No disrespect , but that’s absolute tosh If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
Why a modest cost for battery replacement.
Fords, like most, have an 8 year battery warranty.
I was listening to this on Bloomberg.
Ford have lost the plot. Instead on focusing on small cars like their most popular in the UK they decided to produce Trucks and large SuVs. That simply does not work as the market for those is in the USA where BEVs outside the wealthier urban orientated states simply do not work.
So they will now produce hybrid trucks and SuVs and small BEVs but the latter will be 2027. Only 3 year away so no panic.
Ford have lost the plot. Instead on focusing on small cars like their most popular in the UK they decided to produce Trucks and large SuVs. That simply does not work as the market for those is in the USA where BEVs outside the wealthier urban orientated states simply do not work.
So they will now produce hybrid trucks and SuVs and small BEVs but the latter will be 2027. Only 3 year away so no panic.
James6112 said:
SteveKTMer said:
It's not the concept of a BEV that's not wanted, it's the current crop of very expensive BEVs, with poor charging infrastructure experience for very many people, coupled with a dealer network that can't or won't repair batteries and the other costly BEV components.
If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
No disrespect , but that’s absolute tosh If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
Why a modest cost for battery replacement.
Fords, like most, have an 8 year battery warranty.
It is unfortunate that people opine when they have so little actual knowledge on the topic.
Ford were caught once again with their pants down.
dimots said:
SteveKTMer said:
It's not the concept of a BEV that's not wanted, it's the current crop of very expensive BEVs, with poor charging infrastructure experience for very many people, coupled with a dealer network that can't or won't repair batteries and the other costly BEV components.
If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
I agree. That would help shake off the stigma around EVs, that they are somehow not as durable as petrol cars. From what I've seen that is not borne out by the facts which prove electric cars last longer and do more miles with less maintenance. However it seems that people still think that the trigger's broom nature of combustion engines means they will last longer. Make batteries replaceable easily and I think much of this misconception would be lost.If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
James6112 said:
SteveKTMer said:
It's not the concept of a BEV that's not wanted, it's the current crop of very expensive BEVs, with poor charging infrastructure experience for very many people, coupled with a dealer network that can't or won't repair batteries and the other costly BEV components.
If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
No disrespect , but that’s absolute tosh If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
Why a modest cost for battery replacement.
Fords, like most, have an 8 year battery warranty.
Who buys a used car costing £20k+ knowing that in 4 years they might have to write it off if the battery fails ? Why can’t the dealers replace the 6 or 8 cells causing the problem ?
anyoldcardave said:
I agree too, but home charging seems a must, and many, like me, cannot do that, public chargrs in this area are fought over, courier vans occupy them all afternoon, how can they work if you cannot home charge, or charge at work? Just too much faff.
That's a big issue for sure. I know some solutions are coming. I've seen the NIO battery swap station. I've seen the charging e-motorways in Sweden. But yeah, being able to charge at home makes owning an EV a pleasure, I don't think I'd have one if I couldn't.jimmytheone said:
Ford might do better if they could produce a decent EV - Mustang i'm looking at you 
Tbh, the Mach E is the only one I'd consider. The rest are re-badged VWs, stupid buttons and all. The problem I have is they're too expensive: all of their cars at the minute - I just don't see the value in them in the way that they used to be (Puma/Fiesta STs could be had for under £250/month (mid 20Ks cash)) - last time I looked it was £400+, for a 1L auto: which seems like an awful lot for what they are.
Matthen said:
jimmytheone said:
Ford might do better if they could produce a decent EV - Mustang i'm looking at you
Tbh, the Mach E is the only one I'd consider. The rest are re-badged VWs, stupid buttons and all. The problem I have is they're too expensive: all of their cars at the minute - I just don't see the value in them in the way that they used to be (Puma/Fiesta STs could be had for under £250/month (mid 20Ks cash)) - last time I looked it was £400+, for a 1L auto: which seems like an awful lot for what they are.
Jimmytheone - have you driven one? Would be interested to understand why you think its not good?
And yes, they are (or should I say were) expensive for what Ford wanted for them. Here in California, they are selling well and you can get a lease on a decent spec for $4k down and $300 a month! Thats a very good deal when compared with others. As for retail, 0% APR and up to $3k in cash. And all of this is before dealer discounts too. Local dealers to me are offering some serious deals - cheaper than my second hand one! Damn.
I am guessing this isnt replicated elsewhere. Second hand though - its bit of a bargain. Values took a tumble and there was a glut of ones coming off lease, so a fantastic bargain when compared to the original prices.
off_again said:
And yes, they are (or should I say were) expensive for what Ford wanted for them. Here in California, they are selling well and you can get a lease on a decent spec for $4k down and $300 a month! Thats a very good deal when compared with others. As for retail, 0% APR and up to $3k in cash. And all of this is before dealer discounts too. Local dealers to me are offering some serious deals - cheaper than my second hand one! Damn.
This kind of illustrates the problem Ford have perfectly: you're happy to have one if they discount it to the point it makes no profit at all, provided it's as good or nearly as good as a car that doesn't have to be sold at a massive discount.Very hard for them to make any money when nobody will pay more than pocket fluff and loose buttons for their products.
It's even worse in Europe where they have seen sales in higher margin larger vehicles completely disappear and we don't have enough sister shaggers buying pickup trucks for them to make up the margin there. I personally expect Ford of Europe to be out of the market for passenger cars by 2035.
SteveKTMer said:
It's not the concept of a BEV that's not wanted, it's the current crop of very expensive BEVs, with poor charging infrastructure experience for very many people, coupled with a dealer network that can't or won't repair batteries and the other costly BEV components.
Here in the US, there are a lot of complaints about the Ford dealers and coverage of EV's. Though this tends to be in the more rural or spread out areas. In and around major cities, almost all dealers have coverage for EV's and that means servicing, repair and sales. I am sure this is different elsewhere, but Ford didnt do themselves any favors here.Previously commented about Ford BEV's and they are a bit of a steal at the moment. Lots of offers, nice competition between dealers. Its a buyers market currently, even though their sales are increasing across the US. Not so much on the costly part.
Charging infrastructure is different here too. Ford has joined the agreement with Tesla and now you can use their Supercharger network with ease. Ok, so you need an adaptor, but if you are the first purchaser, you get this for free. Second hand? Not so much, but its not too expensive. From there, it automatically syncs with your Ford account and you can just plug in and go. Easy. The only complication is that Tesla have limited this to certain versions of their supercharger. I think its v3 and v4's only, but I could be wrong here. Though you would struggle to find a v2 and I dont believe there are any v1's left in service. Overall though, pretty efficient and easy - but it does mean you can use the public networks or the Tesla one, so its all good there.
I dont know what you mean about the battery replacement though? Ford offer an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty on their batteries and also include 6 years 60,000 free breakdown too. Since the earliest Mach E was from 2021, there isnt an issue. Feedback seems to indicate that they are holding up well and there are few failures. But any that do fail are covered under the warranty and replaced FOC.
As for repair - thats a great point and one that I absolutely see getting filled. As Tesla's aged out of their warranty, we have seen lots of businesses pop up providing refurb options and even upgrades. This is absolutely following what happened with the Prius market too. Around me there are now 4 separate specialist places that do hybrid upgrades and battery refurb for EV's. Its a growing market and fully expect to see it grow as other manufacturers age out of their warranties.
As for the Ford - thats an interesting one. They decided to take a route that allowed replacement and repair - there is a big thing in some states about the right to repair and Ford didnt want to fall foul of that. The battery packs (for the Mach E at least) can be easily removed and can be serviced. They decided to go a different route that Tesla and a few others and allowed this. It is serviceable, though you need to know what you are doing. Can modules be replaced? Dont know yet as again, warranty. But its not a single sealed part that cannot be repaired. I fully expect to see specialists filling the gap when the time is due.
SteveKTMer said:
If the manufacturers put the investment into offering BEVs that can be repaired at modest cost, with a modest cost for battery replacement, I think they'd have much more success and this would pressure the government into getting more charging stations installed.
Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
Clearly its different in other markets, but here Ford are doing well with their EV's. How long this lasts is a good question, but their products are competitive and the recent updates to the Mach E keep it competitive. The charging network is great and the batteries can be repaired. Appealing only to those who want a car on a short lease was never going to work.
And a quick check on Ebay shows that the average cost of a replacement battery for a Mach E is about $8k - $9k - thats not too bad if its checked out and fully working. I fully expect this to drop in time and again, enterprising companies will fill the void on refurb.
GeniusOfLove said:
off_again said:
And yes, they are (or should I say were) expensive for what Ford wanted for them. Here in California, they are selling well and you can get a lease on a decent spec for $4k down and $300 a month! Thats a very good deal when compared with others. As for retail, 0% APR and up to $3k in cash. And all of this is before dealer discounts too. Local dealers to me are offering some serious deals - cheaper than my second hand one! Damn.
This kind of illustrates the problem Ford have perfectly: you're happy to have one if they discount it to the point it makes no profit at all, provided it's as good or nearly as good as a car that doesn't have to be sold at a massive discount.Very hard for them to make any money when nobody will pay more than pocket fluff and loose buttons for their products.
It's even worse in Europe where they have seen sales in higher margin larger vehicles completely disappear and we don't have enough sister shaggers buying pickup trucks for them to make up the margin there. I personally expect Ford of Europe to be out of the market for passenger cars by 2035.
Does Ford make a profit on them? Absolutely not. In the way they account for EV's, they decided to lump all of the costs in together, so no, there is no profitable Ford EV. But, as volumes increase, offers dry up and the market matures, fully expect to see the losses decrease. When is the big question though and what impact will this have on their bottom line?
I am guessing that you are comparing the Mach E to a Tesla? I think thats the comparison that you are making. The Model Y does sell well but the gap between it and its competition is narrowing, and even in some situations there isnt a gap. The Model Y has a poor ride, hasnt been updated in years and while the build quality is better than before, its still pretty shocking. Tesla improved the Model 3, which is great and in all of the areas in which it was criticized. Unfortunately they havent addressed the Model Y, yet. Its loud inside, the interior is pretty basic and low quality and fit and finish is poor with lots of rattles etc. In many areas, the competition has the Model Y beaten.
And if the rumors are true, you can expect to see the Model Y to be had on a number of offers. Currently you can get them on a 1.99% APR, which is pretty amazing, but rumors of a 0% deal coming as well as pretty deep discounts / lease deals to get people to keep buying them. Sales are down for Tesla while other manufacturers are increasing (its not as simple as that though), so they need to stimulate demand. Things change quick and offers come and go.
GeniusOfLove said:
we don't have enough sister shaggers buying pickup trucks
Well tie me to an ant hill and smother my ears with jam.
I didn't know that.Actually... Even over here (US) it's common to assume that pickup trucks are just a rural thing. But study after study shows that most buyers live in suburban areas of large cities.
This is one reason why pickups are available in various levels of trim and with all sorts of accessories, both OEM and aftermarket. People have preferences and personalisation is paramount.
That said: Yes, of course one finds pickups in rural and wide-open spaces. Spend any time in said places, however, and you'll quickly see that most of those pickups are on job sites five to seven days a week.
I don't believe that, in the US, there is any vehicle that performs more work, for more use cases, than a pickup truck.
GeniusOfLove said:
off_again said:
And yes, they are (or should I say were) expensive for what Ford wanted for them. Here in California, they are selling well and you can get a lease on a decent spec for $4k down and $300 a month! Thats a very good deal when compared with others. As for retail, 0% APR and up to $3k in cash. And all of this is before dealer discounts too. Local dealers to me are offering some serious deals - cheaper than my second hand one! Damn.
It's even worse in Europe where they have seen sales in higher margin larger vehicles completely disappear and we don't have enough sister shaggers buying pickup trucks for them to make up the margin there. I personally expect Ford of Europe to be out of the market for passenger cars by 2035.Could be cars go through another distribution place, there were more Mach E, than any other car, some Explorer, the odd Focus, did not see any Puma or Kuga.
James6112 said:
No disrespect , but that’s absolute tosh
Why a modest cost for battery replacement.
Fords, like most, have an 8 year battery warranty.
Because the fear of a £20k bill after 8 years puts buyers off. Rightly or wrongly consumers have concerns about them. Just had a look at the cost of a traction battery for a Mach E. Depending on version it's between £26 and 28k. There is, of course, plenty of evidence that the batteries will last way beyond that, but the warranty aside OEM's do very little to inspire consumer confidence in EVs.Why a modest cost for battery replacement.
Fords, like most, have an 8 year battery warranty.
Edited by MrBig on Thursday 22 August 16:21
MrBig said:
James6112 said:
No disrespect , but that’s absolute tosh
Why a modest cost for battery replacement.
Fords, like most, have an 8 year battery warranty.
Because the fear of a £20k bill after 8 years puts buyers off. Rightly or wrongly consumers have concerns about them. Just had a look at the cost of a traction battery for a Mach E. Depending on version it's between £26 and 28k. There is, of course, plenty of evidence that the batteries will last way beyond that, but the warranty aside OEM's do very little to inspire consumer confidence in EVs.Why a modest cost for battery replacement.
Fords, like most, have an 8 year battery warranty.
Edited by MrBig on Thursday 22 August 16:21
As with ICE vehicles, everyone looks for a way out of warranty claims, they are not a cast iron guarantee of anything.
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