Second hand battery fears

[vxr8mate]

Are you like me, in the market for a second hand EV, watching prices plumet but not sure how good the battery will be or how long it will last?

Seeing how cheap Jaguar I Pace's have become I watched a 4 year review on Youtube only for the guy to say he had a battery warning light coming on and not the cheap to replace battery.

Some of these EV's are now such good value but I can't help thinking what happens if the battery fails.

Anyone else in the same predicament?

[T_S_M]

Most EV's come with at least 8 years battery warranty. Even after that point there are companies now that can work on the batteries, changing individual faulty cells rather than the whole thing.

I'd put much more faith in a 10 year old EV being reliable, than a 10 year old Diesel with an EGR/DPF/Turbo/Timing Chain/Dual-mass flywheel.

See the Tesla Model S on Autotraders Youtube channel, with 430k miles on it, on the original battery/motors.

ETA: Excluding IPaces, but that's a Jaguar thing rather than EV thing

[breamster]

This is where I am. I'm looking for a petrol car at the moment for my new daily, about 3 yrs old.

I tend to run my sensible cars till they die. The current car is 15 years old which is normal for me.

I like the idea of an ev but the potential massive cost of battery repairs or replacement make me apprehensive about getting a hybrid or ev. An 8 Yr battery warranty isn't enough unless I change my buying habits.

[kambites]

I'd just view them the same as ICE. By the time you've had a petrol car a few years, replacing the engine would be economically unviable; same with the battery of an EV. I suspect there's similarly small chance of the sort of catastrophic failure which would require a complete replacement of either.

The only difference really is that EV batteries fundamentally degrade over time, but a gradual loss of capacity doesn't make a car stop working, it just reduces the range. Battery degradation generally better than linear though so as long as you know the state of health at the time of buying, you can have a ballpark worst-case guess at what it will be like as the car ages.

We're currently looking at getting a used EV as a long-term family car and I'm not particularly concerned about battery longevity.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 31st July 13:49

[charltjr]

iPace battery is made up of individual modules which can be replaced individually, it's vanishingly unlikely that the entire pack will totally fail, much more likely to be individual modules.

Modules are currently selling for £250 to £350. If a complete pack is needed, they're around £7k to £8k, e.g.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/296465681000

The aftermarket is going to catch up with this really quickly as there will be good money to be made on fixing battery packs and once you know what you're doing it's not especially hard - not compared to rebuilding an engine anyway.

[GT6k]

The only cars that significantly degrade their batteries are Leafs. For the current generation of cars battery degradation is largely an urban myth within the likely lifetime of a normal car. What you do have to worry about is all the bits that aren't covered by the battery warranty which are just as expensive. In reality its probably not really a problem as a car will either be new enough to be under manufacturers warranty or old enough that someone will have worked out how to fix it without just throwing the dealer priced parts catalogue at it.

As an example hear is article on the longevity and independent serviceability of Tesla batteries https://evclinic.eu/2024/07/27/maximizing-tesla-s-...

[Nomme de Plum]

breamster said:

This is where I am. I'm looking for a petrol car at the moment for my new daily, about 3 yrs old.

I tend to run my sensible cars till they die. The current car is 15 years old which is normal for me.

I like the idea of an ev but the potential massive cost of battery repairs or replacement make me apprehensive about getting a hybrid or ev. An 8 Yr battery warranty isn't enough unless I change my buying habits.

I appreciate this maybe unfamiliar territory for many.

When you look to buy a used car do you factor in a replacement engine, gearbox, differential and maybe some expensive electronics. Probably not i would suggest.

Why would one look on an EV any differently?

I'd add an Hybrid is complex and therefore may actually be the worst of all choices from a maintenance cost standpoint.

There are EVs now with well over 100,000 miles and a few with double that on the clock. Mine has just 41000 and 4 years old but minimal battery degradation.

I suspect any Post 2020 car will have a good battery warranty, maybe 8 years, which well exceeds any warranty you will get on an ICE. Warranties are not given unless the company is reasonably confident it won't be called on.

[T_S_M]

GT6k said:

The only cars that significantly degrade their batteries are Leafs. For the current generation of cars battery degradation is largely an urban myth within the likely lifetime of a normal car. What you do have to worry about is all the bits that aren't covered by the battery warranty which are just as expensive. In reality its probably not really a problem as a car will either be new enough to be under manufacturers warranty or old enough that someone will have worked out how to fix it without just throwing the dealer priced parts catalogue at it.

As an example hear is article on the longevity and independent serviceability of Tesla batteries https://evclinic.eu/2024/07/27/maximizing-tesla-s-...

The Tesla on the Autotrader Youtube videos, had lost 25% of its usable battery due to degradation over 430k miles.

Personally, degrading batteries aren't even something I'd consider when buying another used EV.

[DaveCWK]

Nomme de Plum said:

I appreciate this maybe unfamiliar territory for many.

When you look to buy a used car do you factor in a replacement engine, gearbox, differential and maybe some expensive electronics. Probably not i would suggest.

Why would one look on an EV any differently?

Mainly because its a few £thousand in the case of a blown differential, gearbox rebuild, replacement ECU etc. AKA, large but manageable expenses. And they won't all happen at once - maybe you'll be unlucky and have one happen. And they generally give some warning they are in the process of failing that you cna identify at purchase - diff/gearbox whine, smoky engine etc.

Whereas an EV battery going wrong is essentially immediate, terminal to the car; £tens of thousands to replace.

[kambites]

DaveCWK said:

Mainly because its a few £thousand in the case of a blown differential, gearbox rebuild, replacement ECU etc. AKA, large but manageable expenses. And they won't all happen at once - maybe you'll be unlucky and have one happen. And they generally give some warning they are in the process of failing that you cna identify at purchase - diff/gearbox whine, smoky engine etc.

Whereas an EV battery going wrong is essentially immediate, terminal to the car; £tens of thousands to replace.

A modern ICE going bang in a big way can easily be tens of thousands of pounds to replace if you're paying full main dealer rates.

[charltjr]

DaveCWK said:

Whereas an EV battery going wrong is essentially immediate, terminal to the car; £tens of thousands to replace.

It shouldn’t be, read my post above. Open up the pack, replace the faulty cells. Only if that’s uneconomic or the rest of the pack is beyond saving too (extremely unlikely short of a fire or severe physical damage) would a full pack replacement be needed.

The aftermarket is yet to fully catch up with this, but it will.

[CHARLESBERG]

I borrowed a Tesla pool car from work, Model 3 Standard Range Plus on a 20 plate. I had it for a couple of months in the end whilst my actual car had work done.

When I have that back earlier this year, it was on around 117,000 miles. It hid its age very well. My first ever drive of an electric car and I really enjoyed it! I certainly wouldn’t have been disappointed as a buyer.

[raspy]

Nomme de Plum said:

I appreciate this maybe unfamiliar territory for many.

When you look to buy a used car do you factor in a replacement engine, gearbox, differential and maybe some expensive electronics. Probably not i would suggest.

Why would one look on an EV any differently?

I'd add an Hybrid is complex and therefore may actually be the worst of all choices from a maintenance cost standpoint.

There are EVs now with well over 100,000 miles and a few with double that on the clock. Mine has just 41000 and 4 years old but minimal battery degradation.

I suspect any Post 2020 car will have a good battery warranty, maybe 8 years, which well exceeds any warranty you will get on an ICE. Warranties are not given unless the company is reasonably confident it won't be called on.

Depends upon the hybrid. I've been in so many Prius cabs in London which are from 10+ years old with 200-300k on the clock and minimal maintenance, and no battery issues either.

I would think that 15 years of battery warranty for Toyota hybrids would give peace of mind.

"In addition to the manufacturer warranty, your Toyota Hybrid battery can benefit from up to 15 years of warranty in total. With every service at a Toyota dealer, the warranty is extended for a further 12 months, up to the 15th year of registration."

[Cobnapint]

I'd like to be reassured by this aftermarket theory, but I'm not.
Such are the advancements in battery technology and manufacturing, by the time individual cells start failing in an old battery pack, its highly unlikely the aftermarket will be able to just do a quick search on Euro Car Parts and get the correct module dropped off that afternoon by the obligatory bird in a Vauxhall Combo.

What they're more likely to be doing is cannibalising similar age battery packs (of probable dubious history) whose modules were showing half decent several months ago and have been sat at the back of the yard waiting for you to come along with your credit card.

Once batteries reach a certain age it's only a matter of time before they 'all' start to go wibble. Just how many times would you be prepared to keep going back to get two or three more replaced? It's not an easy job either.
Medium to long term reliability wise it'd be like selecting the replacement for a long term friend that had just passed from an old people's home.

The difficult to swallow truth is that either the cost or the availability of a new battery pack will probably end up writing the car off.

And I'm not against EVs, I'm looking at getting one myself.

[raspy]

Cobnapint said:

I'd like to be reassured by this aftermarket theory, but I'm not.
Such are the advancements in battery technology and manufacturing, by the time individual cells start failing in an old battery pack, its highly unlikely the aftermarket will be able to just do a quick search on Euro Car Parts and get the correct module dropped off that afternoon by the obligatory bird in a Vauxhall Combo.

What they're more likely to be doing is cannibalising similar age battery packs (of probable dubious history) whose modules were showing half decent several months ago and have been sat at the back of the yard waiting for you to come along with your credit card.

Once batteries reach a certain age it's only a matter of time before they 'all' start to go wibble. Just how many times would you be prepared to keep going back to get two or three more replaced? It's not an easy job either.
Medium to long term reliability wise it'd be like selecting the replacement for a long term friend that had just passed from an old people's home.

The difficult to swallow truth is that either the cost or the availability of a new battery pack will probably end up writing the car off.

And I'm not against EVs, I'm looking at getting one myself.

This is from a 2016 article.

"Importantly, and unlike most other electric vehicles, and you won’t ever need to replace the I-Pace's battery pack.

At least, that’s the view of Dr Wolfgang Ziebart, Technical Design Director Product Development at Jaguar.

'We expect the battery will last the entire lifetime of the car. If you look at the specification of the cells – 1000 cycles of full-span zero-to-100 per cent – that’s what the battery pack can do.

In our case, as we have a range of 500km, 1000 cycles would mean the battery has a life of 500,000km, which should exceed the life of the vehicle.

'But what we must also consider is that people don’t bother with maximum range charging, rather it’s more like 90 per cent. And on the other end of the scale, the driver is more likely to run the vehicle down to 20 per cent of remaining charge, rather than a complete depletion of battery power', Ziebart added.

'So the battery doesn’t actually cycle between 0 and 100, rather, it’s more lik between 20 and 90, which adds quite a lot to the battery life.'

Ziebart believes it’s even better than that, given the fact that standard 1000 cycles are based on a fast-charge using a high-powered 100kW charge in one hour continuously."

https://www.drive.com.au/news/the-jaguar-i-pace-wo...

[raspy]

charltjr said:

It shouldn’t be, read my post above. Open up the pack, replace the faulty cells. Only if that’s uneconomic or the rest of the pack is beyond saving too (extremely unlikely short of a fire or severe physical damage) would a full pack replacement be needed.

The aftermarket is yet to fully catch up with this, but it will.

Indeed. Here is a useful read from NZ on what's involved in repairing an i-Pace battery.

"When addressing an electric vehicle (EV) battery issue, repairs often involve diagnosing and resolving specific issues within the battery modules.

These issues can arise from various factors such as cell degradation or environmental conditions like temperature variations. In this particular instance, the repair focused on replacing a module that had developed issues affecting its performance and reliability.

Supervised by a staff member from JLR NZ, Alex, our skilled technician at Archibalds, led the repair process with care and expertise. Here’s a closer look at how the repair was carried out:

Preparation: Before beginning the repair, Alex ensured the battery pack was safely powered off and removed any protective covers or enclosures to access the internal components.

Isolation: Through comprehensive testing and analysis, Alex identified the specific module requiring replacement and isolated it from the rest of the battery pack. This involved disconnecting inter-module connections to ensure only the targeted module was affected.

Module Replacement: With careful attention, Alex removed the damaged module from the pack and replaced it with a new one, following manufacturer guidelines for proper installation.

Reassembly: Once the new module was installed, Alex reassembled the battery pack, reconnecting inter-module connections and replacing protective covers or enclosures. Every component was secured to prevent potential issues.

Testing: The repaired battery pack underwent thorough testing to verify its functionality and safety. Alex conducted diagnostic tests to ensure proper voltage levels, cell balancing, and overall performance before returning it to service."

https://archibalds.co.nz/news/electric-vehicle-new...

[anyoldcardave]

kambites said:

DaveCWK said:

Mainly because its a few £thousand in the case of a blown differential, gearbox rebuild, replacement ECU etc. AKA, large but manageable expenses. And they won't all happen at once - maybe you'll be unlucky and have one happen. And they generally give some warning they are in the process of failing that you cna identify at purchase - diff/gearbox whine, smoky engine etc.

Whereas an EV battery going wrong is essentially immediate, terminal to the car; £tens of thousands to replace.

A modern ICE going bang in a big way can easily be tens of thousands of pounds to replace if you're paying full main dealer rates.

That is a ridiculous statement, Main Agents only do engine swaps under warranty, they will quote you telephone numbers NOT to get the job, service work is far more lucrative and their main business is selling cars.

As somebody that seeks out ICE vehicles with blown engines and timing belt failures of a certain manufacturer, and do not get my hands dirty replacing or rebuilding them, a healthy living can be made.
Mainly from people who only go to a main agent, who will revert to type, and sell them a new or nearly new car, or going to garages who do not like doing engine work, suck through their teeth, and quote telephone numbers.

There are plenty that do,and you would be surprised how little it can cost, and often how little damage is done by a timing belt failure, knowledge is everything, so many just accept what they are told, and want out of the paperweight they have, laziness comes into play too.

A warranty for an engine or an EV battery is NOT complete peace of mind, they will all look for ways to get out of it and blame YOU.
In the case of 1 car I bought recently, a single service was approx 100 miles late, the claim was rejected, in the case of EV, damage is not covered, and does happen with where they are located, a faulty charger or mischarging is often a get out, another thing they will do with ICE is analyze oil, if they suspect stamps in a book are suspect, or you have used the incorrect oil, like anything these days, things that cost money will be got out of if possible.

Their is far to much trust put on a warranty, far too much money spent on that peace of mind, but is it really peace of mind?

[wyson]

https://youtu.be/30qoC8qMRug

Tesla Model 3, less than 100k km, 2 years old. Almost 16% battery degradation.

Battery longevity depends on how the battery is treated. Bjorn Nyland speculates that Model 3 was exclusively supercharged.

Disclosure of the battery degradation statistic needs to be made a legal requirement when selling second hand electric cars.

Edited by wyson on Thursday 1st August 06:05

[Cobnapint]

raspy said:

Cobnapint said:

I'd like to be reassured by this aftermarket theory, but I'm not.
Such are the advancements in battery technology and manufacturing, by the time individual cells start failing in an old battery pack, its highly unlikely the aftermarket will be able to just do a quick search on Euro Car Parts and get the correct module dropped off that afternoon by the obligatory bird in a Vauxhall Combo.

What they're more likely to be doing is cannibalising similar age battery packs (of probable dubious history) whose modules were showing half decent several months ago and have been sat at the back of the yard waiting for you to come along with your credit card.

Once batteries reach a certain age it's only a matter of time before they 'all' start to go wibble. Just how many times would you be prepared to keep going back to get two or three more replaced? It's not an easy job either.
Medium to long term reliability wise it'd be like selecting the replacement for a long term friend that had just passed from an old people's home.

The difficult to swallow truth is that either the cost or the availability of a new battery pack will probably end up writing the car off.

And I'm not against EVs, I'm looking at getting one myself.

This is from a 2016 article.

"Importantly, and unlike most other electric vehicles, and you won’t ever need to replace the I-Pace's battery pack.

At least, that’s the view of Dr Wolfgang Ziebart, Technical Design Director Product Development at Jaguar.

'We expect the battery will last the entire lifetime of the car. If you look at the specification of the cells – 1000 cycles of full-span zero-to-100 per cent – that’s what the battery pack can do.

In our case, as we have a range of 500km, 1000 cycles would mean the battery has a life of 500,000km, which should exceed the life of the vehicle.

'But what we must also consider is that people don’t bother with maximum range charging, rather it’s more like 90 per cent. And on the other end of the scale, the driver is more likely to run the vehicle down to 20 per cent of remaining charge, rather than a complete depletion of battery power', Ziebart added.

'So the battery doesn’t actually cycle between 0 and 100, rather, it’s more lik between 20 and 90, which adds quite a lot to the battery life.'

Ziebart believes it’s even better than that, given the fact that standard 1000 cycles are based on a fast-charge using a high-powered 100kW charge in one hour continuously."

https://www.drive.com.au/news/the-jaguar-i-pace-wo...

That's quite a claim. I'd like to know how he could actually prove that. There's one thing you can't simulate in lab testing, and that's 'time'.

[ZesPak]

breamster said:

I like the idea of an ev but the potential massive cost of battery repairs or replacement make me apprehensive about getting a hybrid or ev. An 8 Yr battery warranty isn't enough unless I change my buying habits.

But a 2 or 3 year warranty on an ICE is?

Warranties on batteries are 8 years and often over 100k miles. That doesn't mean they will fail in year 9. Thinking that is again, the same as avoiding an ICE that's 4 year because the engine replacement is going to break the bank.

One big difference is that with a lot of EV's there are ways to read battery health.