Discussion
Rechecked my KIA EV6 GT battery after 18 months and 20,000 miles (normally charged to 80% but freely charged to 100% for long journeys and topped up with fast DC charging)
Bearing in mind that degradation is normally faster in the first year than the subsequent years and stabilises until the battery is much more worn.
98.8% state of health. So for the battery to reach 70% state of health (at which point it would still be very useable) the car would need to cover around 500,000 miles.
I wonder what the residual value of a car with 500,000 miles and a 70% battery would be? Probably far higher than the actual value of a leggy petrol car since the battery still has uses as off grid storage, not to mention the recycling value.
Anyway barring accidents or sporadic failure (which is less common after a battery has bedded in) it’s clear the the battery will likely outlive the car.
(Before you ask, the real world range is identical to when I bought it so the OBD readings are very likely to be correct.)
Bearing in mind that degradation is normally faster in the first year than the subsequent years and stabilises until the battery is much more worn.
98.8% state of health. So for the battery to reach 70% state of health (at which point it would still be very useable) the car would need to cover around 500,000 miles.
I wonder what the residual value of a car with 500,000 miles and a 70% battery would be? Probably far higher than the actual value of a leggy petrol car since the battery still has uses as off grid storage, not to mention the recycling value.
Anyway barring accidents or sporadic failure (which is less common after a battery has bedded in) it’s clear the the battery will likely outlive the car.
(Before you ask, the real world range is identical to when I bought it so the OBD readings are very likely to be correct.)
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Thursday 13th June 17:40
Mmmm, battery degradation - its a good question, but I would note that its not linear. Some manufacturers have a pretty steep initial drop, but then levels out over time. Others are closer to linear. I am not a battery expert, but I would note that battery module failures will continue to happen over time which will impact the available range etc. Things might seem fine for a while and then just fail, so its fair to assume that many EV battery packs wont make it to 500,000 miles, but there does seem to be evidence that your average EV battery will make it further than an equivalent ICE.
But there are so many variables at play though, so probably a good idea to be cautious.
But there are so many variables at play though, so probably a good idea to be cautious.
It could be more complicated. Some manufacturers have a buffer they only release as degradation occurs to maintain the initial capacity, so your 1.5% drop may be artifically low, but overall you're right the batteries do appear to hold up well.
Theres a series of videos on Tesla battery degradation here and this one looks at the high mileage (150k+) cars that are being reported.
https://youtu.be/3U_zWhzPmXU
10-15% is typical at 200k miles so it seems the batteries are unlikely to have degradation to the point of being near worthless, but thtat doesn't mean they wonlt have a critical failure/be bricked. Thats good news for the companies that will salvage battery packs and just replace the parts that bricked the battery
However.... cars fall apart for more reasons than just the battery and there is a VERY strong correleation between mileage and depreciation.
Theres a series of videos on Tesla battery degradation here and this one looks at the high mileage (150k+) cars that are being reported.
https://youtu.be/3U_zWhzPmXU
10-15% is typical at 200k miles so it seems the batteries are unlikely to have degradation to the point of being near worthless, but thtat doesn't mean they wonlt have a critical failure/be bricked. Thats good news for the companies that will salvage battery packs and just replace the parts that bricked the battery
However.... cars fall apart for more reasons than just the battery and there is a VERY strong correleation between mileage and depreciation.
Gone fishing said:
It could be more complicated. Some manufacturers have a buffer they only release as degradation occurs to maintain the initial capacity, so your 1.5% drop may be artifically low, but overall you're right the batteries do appear to hold up well.
Theres a series of videos on Tesla battery degradation here and this one looks at the high mileage (150k+) cars that are being reported.
https://youtu.be/3U_zWhzPmXU
10-15% is typical at 200k miles so it seems the batteries are unlikely to have degradation to the point of being near worthless, but thtat doesn't mean they wonlt have a critical failure/be bricked. Thats good news for the companies that will salvage battery packs and just replace the parts that bricked the battery
However.... cars fall apart for more reasons than just the battery and there is a VERY strong correleation between mileage and depreciation.
There was the following report doing the rounds out here over the last couple of weeks:Theres a series of videos on Tesla battery degradation here and this one looks at the high mileage (150k+) cars that are being reported.
https://youtu.be/3U_zWhzPmXU
10-15% is typical at 200k miles so it seems the batteries are unlikely to have degradation to the point of being near worthless, but thtat doesn't mean they wonlt have a critical failure/be bricked. Thats good news for the companies that will salvage battery packs and just replace the parts that bricked the battery
However.... cars fall apart for more reasons than just the battery and there is a VERY strong correleation between mileage and depreciation.
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/tesla-batteries-...
The problem is that the headline numbers make great press, but this is not what I have seen with people that I know who have Teslas. And if you go to the Tesla forums and owners clubs, this is not what is reported. What is clear is that there are inconsistencies on how this is reported.
I dont know thousands of Tesla owners and clearly what I do know is anecdotal. But its weird.
My GT at 11k is 100% and I usually charge to 90%.
I think the effect on resale value would be minimal anyway because the usual procedure is to replace a few duff cells as the battery ages rather than the whole battery. Cost to do that is relatively trivial. In any case recon/clone batteries will be available ten a penny in a few years.
Since I fill mine with solar for sweet FA 90% of the time and at effectively <5p/kwh the other 10%, by the time it needs a battery it will have paid for it many times over so it’s not a big deal. If I was charging at 80p/kwh on public chargers it would be a very different story though as I wouldn’t be saving a penny over an ICE car.
300,000 miles in an ICE at 40MPG is about £55k plus taxes, servicing etc at another £10k. Really not sweating about battery costs at all.
I think the effect on resale value would be minimal anyway because the usual procedure is to replace a few duff cells as the battery ages rather than the whole battery. Cost to do that is relatively trivial. In any case recon/clone batteries will be available ten a penny in a few years.
Since I fill mine with solar for sweet FA 90% of the time and at effectively <5p/kwh the other 10%, by the time it needs a battery it will have paid for it many times over so it’s not a big deal. If I was charging at 80p/kwh on public chargers it would be a very different story though as I wouldn’t be saving a penny over an ICE car.
300,000 miles in an ICE at 40MPG is about £55k plus taxes, servicing etc at another £10k. Really not sweating about battery costs at all.
740EVTORQUES said:
Evanivitch said:
I'm surprised the EV6 gives an honest SoH. The Niro just seems to report 100% to everyone.
You can use an OBD scanner to read the capacity of the individual battery modules so I think it’s pretty accurate. Certainly the real world range has not suffered 
everyone knows that batteries are only good for 2000 miles and then they have to be buried in landfill under a primary school.Or 24kWh Leaf is about to tick over 100,000 miles. Battery has just dipped under 80% health, most of that degradation was in its first 5 years and 70,000 miles with the previous owner, it's only lost a few % in the 5 years we've had it.
Trouble is, the car itself is falling apart around the battery now.
Trouble is, the car itself is falling apart around the battery now.
off_again said:
There was the following report doing the rounds out here over the last couple of weeks:
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/tesla-batteries-...
The problem is that the headline numbers make great press, but this is not what I have seen with people that I know who have Teslas. And if you go to the Tesla forums and owners clubs, this is not what is reported. What is clear is that there are inconsistencies on how this is reported.
I dont know thousands of Tesla owners and clearly what I do know is anecdotal. But it’s weird.
I dont know any Tesla owners either who complain about degradation other than a few percent, there was batterygate a few years ago but that was 1 battery, a software update in response as to a fire in China and unpicked over time.https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/tesla-batteries-...
The problem is that the headline numbers make great press, but this is not what I have seen with people that I know who have Teslas. And if you go to the Tesla forums and owners clubs, this is not what is reported. What is clear is that there are inconsistencies on how this is reported.
I dont know thousands of Tesla owners and clearly what I do know is anecdotal. But it’s weird.
So suggest any battery figure below 70% is also farcical as the warranty kicks in at 70%
The trouble with articles like carscoops is that nobody holds them to account, I guess Tesla could try and take them to court but no doubt there are weasel words and ifs and buts, I suspect they’ve simply confused real world range with the EPA figure by driving in winter at 80mph and then wondering they see a much lower figure.
A couple of random (Battery Life! 
) thoughts of apples to oranges nature:
Because of the higher original prices of the BMWs, the annual depreciation has typically been about 10,000€ per year for the 7-series vs. 6500-8000€ per year for the Teslas. So, with this particular case, it looks like you could replace the battery every 10 years and still be better off financially.
) thoughts of apples to oranges nature:- It took me more than 12 years of neglect and abuse to get one of the camera batteries to fail. I employed all the no-nos: charge to 100% and immediately leave in a drawer for months/years + occasional event gig that runs the battery below 20% - after which it is put back into the cupboard for months/years. Other batteries of similar age and level of abuse are still going strong.
- If I wanted to replace the battery, the replacement cost would have been about 25-50% of the original (third-party manufacturer).
- I think most (all?) cars manufactured during the last 15 years are suspension and brake refresh away from driving like a couple of years old. Adding a reconditioned/remanufactured battery to that should still be considerably cheaper than a new or newish car.
Because of the higher original prices of the BMWs, the annual depreciation has typically been about 10,000€ per year for the 7-series vs. 6500-8000€ per year for the Teslas. So, with this particular case, it looks like you could replace the battery every 10 years and still be better off financially.
Edited by PetrolHeadInRecovery on Friday 14th June 08:28
Edited by PetrolHeadInRecovery on Friday 14th June 08:29
https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla...
Tesla's easily exceeding ICE equivalent retirement mileage and still over 85% original capacity/range
The study only goes up to around ten years of car age due to them not actually existing in significant numbers before then.. But the trend doesn't suggest that the range will tumble at least until the car is so old as to be largely obsolete.
For reference current UK stats for scrapped cars is around 200k miles and 16 years age. I doubt many EV's will be scrapped due to battery deg in the same timeframe/mileage bracket.
Tesla's easily exceeding ICE equivalent retirement mileage and still over 85% original capacity/range
The study only goes up to around ten years of car age due to them not actually existing in significant numbers before then.. But the trend doesn't suggest that the range will tumble at least until the car is so old as to be largely obsolete.
For reference current UK stats for scrapped cars is around 200k miles and 16 years age. I doubt many EV's will be scrapped due to battery deg in the same timeframe/mileage bracket.
TheDeuce said:
https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla...
Tesla's easily exceeding ICE equivalent retirement mileage and still over 85% original capacity/range
The study only goes up to around ten years of car age due to them not actually existing in significant numbers before then.. But the trend doesn't suggest that the range will tumble at least until the car is so old as to be largely obsolete.
For reference current UK stats for scrapped cars is around 200k miles and 16 years age. I doubt many EV's will be scrapped due to battery deg in the same timeframe/mileage bracket.
200,000 miles or kms....Tesla's easily exceeding ICE equivalent retirement mileage and still over 85% original capacity/range
The study only goes up to around ten years of car age due to them not actually existing in significant numbers before then.. But the trend doesn't suggest that the range will tumble at least until the car is so old as to be largely obsolete.
For reference current UK stats for scrapped cars is around 200k miles and 16 years age. I doubt many EV's will be scrapped due to battery deg in the same timeframe/mileage bracket.
GT9 said:
TheDeuce said:
https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla...
Tesla's easily exceeding ICE equivalent retirement mileage and still over 85% original capacity/range
The study only goes up to around ten years of car age due to them not actually existing in significant numbers before then.. But the trend doesn't suggest that the range will tumble at least until the car is so old as to be largely obsolete.
For reference current UK stats for scrapped cars is around 200k miles and 16 years age. I doubt many EV's will be scrapped due to battery deg in the same timeframe/mileage bracket.
200,000 miles or kms....Tesla's easily exceeding ICE equivalent retirement mileage and still over 85% original capacity/range
The study only goes up to around ten years of car age due to them not actually existing in significant numbers before then.. But the trend doesn't suggest that the range will tumble at least until the car is so old as to be largely obsolete.
For reference current UK stats for scrapped cars is around 200k miles and 16 years age. I doubt many EV's will be scrapped due to battery deg in the same timeframe/mileage bracket.
TheDeuce said:
For reference current UK stats for scrapped cars is around 200k miles and 16 years age. I doubt many EV's will be scrapped due to battery deg in the same timeframe/mileage bracket.
EVs may not get scrapped because of batteries, but not all ICE have been scrapped because of the engine. Electrical issues, subframes, significant brake issues, well any repair that is deemed uneconomical. With all the computer stuff going on in EVs I can see people scrapping a EV because the BMS or Big screen throws a wobbly and it’s big money to fix. Water ingress into early Teslas battery fuse area is a problem at the moment and if not addressed can nuke the battery. Gone fishing said:
TheDeuce said:
For reference current UK stats for scrapped cars is around 200k miles and 16 years age. I doubt many EV's will be scrapped due to battery deg in the same timeframe/mileage bracket.
EVs may not get scrapped because of batteries, but not all ICE have been scrapped because of the engine. Electrical issues, subframes, significant brake issues, well any repair that is deemed uneconomical. With all the computer stuff going on in EVs I can see people scrapping a EV because the BMS or Big screen throws a wobbly and it’s big money to fix. Water ingress into early Teslas battery fuse area is a problem at the moment and if not addressed can nuke the battery. As for everything else you listed, all the same kit or equivalent (in terms of failure potential) is fitted to new ICE cars too.
TheDeuce said:
The source I linked to is miles, as are the stats I found for ICE car retirement mileage.
Standard car like for EU carbon studies is 200,000 km or 125,000 miles.I believe we conform to that or possible slightly under.
This chap produced a chart a couple of years ago showing final mileage distributions for UK cars using MOT data: https://autopredict.co.uk/blog/posts/most-miles.ht...
This is the distribution chart he posted, I think the units on the vertical axis are fractional, i.e. 0.01 = 1%.
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