ev at the cost of everything else

[richhead]

the push for ev is greater than ever, but what about alternative options, ev doesnt work for everyone, it never will.
plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, sure there are wind farms/ solar etc, but its not always windy or sunny, so a non starter for day to day use.
plus, live in a flat etc where you cant charge from home, expensive.
so ev is a bit of a niche market, sure it works for sum, but not all.
petrol works for most people, and we have the infrastructure in place.
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
the fact that the government had to incentivize ev in the first place shows it isnt really a cure all fix.
market forces usually does that.

[Maracus]

richhead said:

the push for ev is greater than ever, but what about alternative options, ev doesnt work for everyone, it never will.
plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, sure there are wind farms/ solar etc, but its not always windy or sunny, so a non starter for day to day use.
plus, live in a flat etc where you cant charge from home, expensive.
so ev is a bit of a niche market, sure it works for sum, but not all.
petrol works for most people, and we have the infrastructure in place.
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
the fact that the government had to incentivize ev in the first place shows it isnt really a cure all fix.
market forces usually does that.

Don't worry, we have 11 more years yet until you cannot buy a new ICE car. I'm sure people said the same when the motor car came out and they had to buy their fuel from a chemist.

As for infrastructure, the last time I looked, electric is literally everywhere. The infrastructure is unrecognisable from 2, 3 or 4 years ago.

Home charging is a bonus for sure, but this doesn't mean it's a niche product. Lots of people have the ability to home charge.

[Pistonheadsdicoverer]

Maracus said:

Don't worry, we have 11 more years yet until you cannot buy a new ICE car. I'm sure people said the same when the motor car came out and they had to buy their fuel from a chemist.

As for infrastructure, the last time I looked, electric is literally everywhere. The infrastructure is unrecognisable from 2, 3 or 4 years ago.

Home charging is a bonus for sure, but this doesn't mean it's a niche product. Lots of people have the ability to home charge.

What puzzles me more is the fact that the gov is not pushing for V2G to be compulsory and for more battery storage/EV to be subsidized. Imagine if instead of pushing HS2, the current gov just gave £1bn free battery storage and/or solar panels to households.
That's about 1GWh battery storage or 1GW solar...

Edited by Pistonheadsdicoverer on Tuesday 14th May 16:53

[Zetec-S]

I completely agree with the OP, it's outrageous. Why has no-one thought to start a thread on this subject before?

[GT9]

richhead said:

why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more

To put it bluntly, your post is predicated on a complete lack of understanding of how science, technology, engineering and maths is making things the way they are, not politicians.
For example, 1 acre of land will yield enough biofuel for just 1 car.
There are only 60 million acres in the whole if the UK and 30 million cars...
The same acre could yield enough solar electricity to power a hundred EVs.
If it's an acre of seabed (with an offshore turbine on it) it's thousands of EVs.
One wind turbine can power several thousand cars, but only if you don't try to get all clever because 'pop-pop, bang-bang', and try to turn that electricity into some sort of magical unicorn poo.

[delta0]

Only 32% of electricity was from fossil fuels over the past 12 months and it’s on a downward trajectory. Burning fuels is not going to happen in future so whatever we use has to support this.

[Basil Brush]

Zetec-S said:

I completely agree with the OP, it's outrageous. Why has no-one thought to start a thread on this subject before?

Don't worry, we have 11 more years until these threads stop.

[Nomme de Plum]

Basil Brush said:

Zetec-S said:

I completely agree with the OP, it's outrageous. Why has no-one thought to start a thread on this subject before?

Don't worry, we have 11 more years until these threads stop.

I suspect 2035 will not see the end of these threads. The Covid thread is still going strong with some of the more obsessive types.

[tr3a]

richhead said:

petrol works for most people,

It doesn't work for me. It's dirty, noisy, ridiculously expensive and wildly inefficient. Bear in mind that, while burning that ridiculously expensive fuel in a complicated, high maintenance mechanism that's derived from the steam engine, about three quarters of it is wasted in generating heat. Ever more people are convinced of these facts.

richhead said:

and we have the infrastructure in place.

I, like many other EV users, have my own EV infrastructure in place. The number of public charging stations is growing rapidly. It's hard to imagine for some people (because change), but in the not too distant future, the number of filing stations will drop to a point where it's much more convenient to run an EV. Petrol will have smaller economies of scale, fuel prices will rise, making the running of EV's even cheaper, relatively.

Welcome to the future. Embracing it is much less painful than being a luddite.

Edited by tr3a on Tuesday 14th May 19:04

[moktabe]

Keep banging your drum Mr tr3a....someone might listen one day.

Have you sold your filthy petrol car you've had for many years yet that you suddenly went off?

Edited by moktabe on Tuesday 14th May 19:12

[dvs_dave]

richhead said:

the push for ev is greater than ever, but what about alternative options, ev doesnt work for everyone, it never will.
plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, sure there are wind farms/ solar etc, but its not always windy or sunny, so a non starter for day to day use.
plus, live in a flat etc where you cant charge from home, expensive.
so ev is a bit of a niche market, sure it works for sum, but not all.
petrol works for most people, and we have the infrastructure in place.
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
the fact that the government had to incentivize ev in the first place shows it isnt really a cure all fix.
market forces usually does that.

Oh come on, GTFOH. EV troll bingo full house, Mr Richard Head.

Parrots due all round!

[Terminator X]

GT9 said:

richhead said:

why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more

To put it bluntly, your post is predicated on a complete lack of understanding of how science, technology, engineering and maths is making things the way they are, not politicians.
For example, 1 acre of land will yield enough biofuel for just 1 car.
There are only 60 million acres in the whole if the UK and 30 million cars...
The same acre could yield enough solar electricity to power a hundred EVs.
If it's an acre of seabed (with an offshore turbine on it) it's thousands of EVs.
One wind turbine can power several thousand cars, but only if you don't try to get all clever because 'pop-pop, bang-bang', and try to turn that electricity into some sort of magical unicorn poo.

Ignoring the CO2 argument no one gave a fk about "efficiency" before so why now?

TX.

[dvs_dave]

Terminator X said:

Ignoring the CO2 argument no one gave a fk about "efficiency" before so why now?

TX.

So in your alternate world, vehicle fuel consumption (aka efficiency!!!!) is not, and never has been a thing?

FFS, give me strength.

[smn159]

dvs_dave said:

richhead said:

the push for ev is greater than ever, but what about alternative options, ev doesnt work for everyone, it never will.
plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, sure there are wind farms/ solar etc, but its not always windy or sunny, so a non starter for day to day use.
plus, live in a flat etc where you cant charge from home, expensive.
so ev is a bit of a niche market, sure it works for sum, but not all.
petrol works for most people, and we have the infrastructure in place.
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
the fact that the government had to incentivize ev in the first place shows it isnt really a cure all fix.
market forces usually does that.

Oh come on, GTFOH. EV troll bingo full house, Mr Richard Head.

Parrots due all round!

He forgot about his need to drive 700 miles each weekend without stopping for a piss - poor attempt really

[kambites]

richhead said:

plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, .

This bit is factually incorrect. In 2023, roughly a third of the UK's electricity was generated by burning fossil fuels:


(Source the National Grid website)

Obviously, some of that import will be fossil fuels, bumping it perhaps slightly above a third, but not by much because we mainly import from France (which is almost entirely nuclear) and Norway (which is mostly hydro).

And this year so far, the gas share has dropped by a further couple of percent.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 14th May 20:07

[GT9]

Terminator X said:

Ignoring the CO2 argument no one gave a fk about "efficiency" before so why now?

TX.

Third time lucky?
Here goes.
We don't have to put the energy in oil, we just dig it up.
Renewable power comes from radiation, solar or nuclear.
Solar energy also powers the wind.
Capturing that energy and turning it into electricity requires brand new infrastructure and vehicles (full capacity e-fuel will take far too long to save existing cars, by about 50 years).
We then have to turn that electricity into forward motion.

ALL of the following are directly related to the efficiency of conversion from the point of capture to the turning of the wheels:
- Infrastructure manufacturing cost and carbon footprint.
- Time taken to install the infrastructure.
- Ongoing operating cost and carbon footprint.

It's really not rocket surgery to accept that either 3 or 6 times as many wind turbines to do the same job, plus the entire downstream network of further infrastructure to convert that electricity to hydrogen or e-fuel is batst crazy.
The only reason anyone even talks about is because 'soul' and 'feel', which doesn't even apply to hydrogen anyway.
Those are not valid environmental reasons.
Cost, timeframe and lifetime carbon footprint are basically all that matters.
Efficiency, renewability and recyclability are key to delivering those three things.

[off_again]

Basil Brush said:

Zetec-S said:

I completely agree with the OP, it's outrageous. Why has no-one thought to start a thread on this subject before?

Don't worry, we have 11 more years until these threads stop.

And importantly, nothing will happen in the intervening 11 years. There will be no change in the production of electricity, nor will EVs get cheaper or that the charging infrastructure will improve. But on the other hand, do you really think that a decision by one government will remain in effect 11 years later? No change in party absolutely doesnt change any previously defined policy - that never happens, right?

Things change. Maybe EV's will be the dominant player by the time the enforcement comes in? Maybe the international monetary system will collapse by then?

[GT9]

2035...
We will probably still have 20 million petrol and hybrid cars on the road, of all ages.
We will also probably have 10 million EVs of all ages.
And possibly a couple of million diesel soldiering on.
Everybody will still have a choice, nobody gets left behind.

2050...
Harder to predict obviously.
What is likely is the EV range, cost and charging time, as well as access to affordable, widely-available, charging will be unrecognisable by today's standards.
Interesting petrol cars will be rarer, but probably still in the millions, and expensive to run for those who insist on doing so.
Including possibly me, although I'll be getting on a bit so I probably won't even remember posting this.
Everybody still has a choice, nobody gets left behind.
Except maybe petrol car drivers insisting that their car must be new.
Not going to lose sleep over them, sorry.
Anyone still demanding a new diesel car to be sectioned.

[delta0]

off_again said:

Basil Brush said:

Zetec-S said:

I completely agree with the OP, it's outrageous. Why has no-one thought to start a thread on this subject before?

Don't worry, we have 11 more years until these threads stop.

And importantly, nothing will happen in the intervening 11 years. There will be no change in the production of electricity, nor will EVs get cheaper or that the charging infrastructure will improve. But on the other hand, do you really think that a decision by one government will remain in effect 11 years later? No change in party absolutely doesnt change any previously defined policy - that never happens, right?

Things change. Maybe EV's will be the dominant player by the time the enforcement comes in? Maybe the international monetary system will collapse by then?

Considering Europe is also going EV in 2035 then that pretty much decides the supply of vehicles. It’s wishful to think we would be doing anything different. We just aligned with what they were doing when we removed the hybrid step in 2030 which the EU didn’t have so it made sense.

[off_again]

delta0 said:

off_again said:

Basil Brush said:

Zetec-S said:

I completely agree with the OP, it's outrageous. Why has no-one thought to start a thread on this subject before?

Don't worry, we have 11 more years until these threads stop.

And importantly, nothing will happen in the intervening 11 years. There will be no change in the production of electricity, nor will EVs get cheaper or that the charging infrastructure will improve. But on the other hand, do you really think that a decision by one government will remain in effect 11 years later? No change in party absolutely doesnt change any previously defined policy - that never happens, right?

Things change. Maybe EV's will be the dominant player by the time the enforcement comes in? Maybe the international monetary system will collapse by then?

Considering Europe is also going EV in 2035 then that pretty much decides the supply of vehicles. It’s wishful to think we would be doing anything different. We just aligned with what they were doing when we removed the hybrid step in 2030 which the EU didn’t have so it made sense.

Thats fair - but then again, this could be an opportunity. What is not to say that this could allow local manufacturers to go their own route and provide ICE vehicles? I know its all tied together into an international market, but I cant see this getting enforce in places like California either. They have a roadmap to get to 100% electric by 2035, but its not some sort of law, even though some of the media like to say it is.

In reality, this is going to slip and the world isnt quite ready for it. ICE vehicles will continue to get more efficient and hybrids have some way to go also. But predicting that everyone will be EV in 2035 is somewhat fanciful. I see this slipping to 2040 or later in reality, but who knows, I dont have a crystal ball.