Erm... a very basic phev public charging question...
Discussion
Got my hands on a new Fpace phev this week.
And I'm still trying to get my head around the whole efficiency measure thing of combined ice and eV, particularly when some Journeys are completed without electric. How best to measure?
And then on top of that... Is it worth using public charging on long journeys or is it better to just suck up the low mpg. Is there a breakeven cost that can be calculated?
For example today I did two 80 mile trips. The first was done on full charge and returned about 46mpg.
The return with an empty battery showed about 26mpg.
Would I have been better charging at destination, but having to use public charging at whatever that cost is, or petrol at £1.40 a litre?
I'm probably mKing a very basic error in the thinking behind using a phev... So go easy on me!
And I'm still trying to get my head around the whole efficiency measure thing of combined ice and eV, particularly when some Journeys are completed without electric. How best to measure?
And then on top of that... Is it worth using public charging on long journeys or is it better to just suck up the low mpg. Is there a breakeven cost that can be calculated?
For example today I did two 80 mile trips. The first was done on full charge and returned about 46mpg.
The return with an empty battery showed about 26mpg.
Would I have been better charging at destination, but having to use public charging at whatever that cost is, or petrol at £1.40 a litre?
I'm probably mKing a very basic error in the thinking behind using a phev... So go easy on me!
Vast majority of charging on my Ford Kuga PHEV is at home or work. Not worth charging on a journey, as it can only accept a slow charge and the cost of the charging is generally prohibitive.
If I’m away overnight, I may try to factor in an overnight charge if it’s free or low cost.
Yours does sound thirsty when the battery is flat though…
To be fair, I do tend to take it easy on the motorway, but even with no battery charge left, mine would have been nicely over 50mpg on your return leg.
Flattered somewhat by journeys to and from work which are nearly always covered on electricity, I’ve averaged 115 mpg over 52,000 miles.
If I’m away overnight, I may try to factor in an overnight charge if it’s free or low cost.
Yours does sound thirsty when the battery is flat though…
To be fair, I do tend to take it easy on the motorway, but even with no battery charge left, mine would have been nicely over 50mpg on your return leg.
Flattered somewhat by journeys to and from work which are nearly always covered on electricity, I’ve averaged 115 mpg over 52,000 miles.
What’s your longest regular journey?
If you’re doing 80 mile trips and have a drive at home you’d be far better off with a full electric surely?
With home charging at 8p/kWh and a very conservative 3m/kWh you’d be getting an effective 280mpg..,
Even if you had to use public chargers occasionally you’d still be a lot better off. Did you consider a BEV before your PHEV purchase? Curious as to why you went hybrid?
If you’re doing 80 mile trips and have a drive at home you’d be far better off with a full electric surely?
With home charging at 8p/kWh and a very conservative 3m/kWh you’d be getting an effective 280mpg..,
Even if you had to use public chargers occasionally you’d still be a lot better off. Did you consider a BEV before your PHEV purchase? Curious as to why you went hybrid?
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Sunday 24th March 07:03
My XC40 PHEV does between 40 and 50mpg running purely on petrol. That's between 13p and 16p a mile.
Running purely on battery, it does around 2.5 miles per kwh. On my Octopus Go peak rate, that's 12p per mile. On the overnight rate, that's 3.6p per mile. Both of these are less than the cost of running on petrol.
If I was to use a public charger at 75p per kwh, it would cost 30p per mile. More expensive than petrol, so not worth doing.
It only makes sense for me to charge at home, or if I could find a public charger that costs 35p or less per kwh.
Running purely on battery, it does around 2.5 miles per kwh. On my Octopus Go peak rate, that's 12p per mile. On the overnight rate, that's 3.6p per mile. Both of these are less than the cost of running on petrol.
If I was to use a public charger at 75p per kwh, it would cost 30p per mile. More expensive than petrol, so not worth doing.
It only makes sense for me to charge at home, or if I could find a public charger that costs 35p or less per kwh.
Dan_1981 said:
It's a company vehicle, I get to swap it in 6 months again so seemed like a good time to trial it.
Regular commute is 50 miles each way with work based charging available.
It sounds like a BEV might work well for you?Regular commute is 50 miles each way with work based charging available.
Although that would depend on what mileage allowance you’re paid for PHEV vs BEV, if the work charging is free or not and the tax implications of this as a BIK etc.
740EVTORQUES said:
Dan_1981 said:
It's a company vehicle, I get to swap it in 6 months again so seemed like a good time to trial it.
Regular commute is 50 miles each way with work based charging available.
It sounds like a BEV might work well for you?Regular commute is 50 miles each way with work based charging available.
Although that would depend on what mileage allowance you’re paid for PHEV vs BEV, if the work charging is free or not and the tax implications of this as a BIK etc.
BEV isn't an option right now, and due to the way the vehicles is supplied BIK isn't a consideration.
The regular 50 mile commute is at my cost. Charging at location is at a reduced rate of l 20p kw.
Phev / BEV wasn't a driver behind the vehicle choice, it's just another car to sample. I'm just trying to get my head around how to use it in the best way and also understand true costs / efficiency.
The regular 50 mile commute is at my cost. Charging at location is at a reduced rate of l 20p kw.
Phev / BEV wasn't a driver behind the vehicle choice, it's just another car to sample. I'm just trying to get my head around how to use it in the best way and also understand true costs / efficiency.
Sheepshanks said:
Can’t you set them on longer trips so it keeps some battery in reserve to assist?
Mind you, mate of mine got the Lexus RX450 hybrid. Dealer told him overall MPG would be similar to his diesel BMW - but he does a lot of long trips and the Lexus’s 3.5 litre petrol is doing 22MPG.
Plug-in hybrids always have some battery reserve to assist the petrol engine when you need full power, and for trickling along in very slow traffic. The "reserve" gets topped back up by regen braking, coasting downhill, or just slowing down.Mind you, mate of mine got the Lexus RX450 hybrid. Dealer told him overall MPG would be similar to his diesel BMW - but he does a lot of long trips and the Lexus’s 3.5 litre petrol is doing 22MPG.
Mine also has a "battery hold" function, so you can save more of the battery for later in the journey. Useful when driving further, and part of your journey is in town.
Dan_1981 said:
Got my hands on a new Fpace phev this week.
And I'm still trying to get my head around the whole efficiency measure thing of combined ice and eV, particularly when some Journeys are completed without electric. How best to measure?
And then on top of that... Is it worth using public charging on long journeys or is it better to just suck up the low mpg. Is there a breakeven cost that can be calculated?
For example today I did two 80 mile trips. The first was done on full charge and returned about 46mpg.
The return with an empty battery showed about 26mpg.
Would I have been better charging at destination, but having to use public charging at whatever that cost is, or petrol at £1.40 a litre?
I'm probably mKing a very basic error in the thinking behind using a phev... So go easy on me!
If you're concerned about a few pence per mile fuel costs, you probably shouldn't be driving a Jaag depreciating at 50p per mile.And I'm still trying to get my head around the whole efficiency measure thing of combined ice and eV, particularly when some Journeys are completed without electric. How best to measure?
And then on top of that... Is it worth using public charging on long journeys or is it better to just suck up the low mpg. Is there a breakeven cost that can be calculated?
For example today I did two 80 mile trips. The first was done on full charge and returned about 46mpg.
The return with an empty battery showed about 26mpg.
Would I have been better charging at destination, but having to use public charging at whatever that cost is, or petrol at £1.40 a litre?
I'm probably mKing a very basic error in the thinking behind using a phev... So go easy on me!
PHEVs work really well for some people, good overall cost per mile and the ability to avoid ever public charging, always available with plenty of fuel in the tank etc.
Some of the better PHEVs will do 50+ mpg purely on petrol, but mpg can vary a lot with road conditions, driving style etc. Plus the mpg indications of some vehicles are not to be relied upon.
It's unfortunate that PHEV mpg is clouded by EU-mandated 'overall including electric' 'equivalent' gibberish.
I'm told that a Honda PHEV can extract about 3kwh from a litre of petrol, so public charging at 46p/kwh might be 'break even', but only if you place no value on your time, don't have to detour to charge etc etc, so really only 'destination chargers' make sense.
One big disadvantage of PHEV is that they charge really slowly. So if you are using one for long distances then you might actually be better with a fast charging BEV.
For example, an F Pace can charge at max 32kW while an 800v DC charging Taycan, KIA or Hyundai will charge at 230kW (and Tesla’s manage the same with 400v by liquid cooling their cables IIRC).
So in the 20 minutes it takes you to add 30 ish miles of electric range to your hybrid you can add nearly 200 miles to your BEV.
So if your not using the hybrid effectively for long journeys and of course a BEV will be fine for short journeys, what is the point of a hybrid?
Public chargers are too expensive of course, but unless you’re using them a lot, your overall bill is likely to be lower than ICE in either case.
They’re not a solution to people without parking as a PHEV has to be plugged in frequently or it may actually be less environmentally friendly that a MHEV.
It’s a stepping stone to overcome uncertainty about being able to charge. It’s not range anxiety so much as charging anxiety but the infrastructure is improving all the time and certainly my experience is that it’s already good enough for me not to think twice about journeys that will require public charging.
For example, an F Pace can charge at max 32kW while an 800v DC charging Taycan, KIA or Hyundai will charge at 230kW (and Tesla’s manage the same with 400v by liquid cooling their cables IIRC).
So in the 20 minutes it takes you to add 30 ish miles of electric range to your hybrid you can add nearly 200 miles to your BEV.
So if your not using the hybrid effectively for long journeys and of course a BEV will be fine for short journeys, what is the point of a hybrid?
Public chargers are too expensive of course, but unless you’re using them a lot, your overall bill is likely to be lower than ICE in either case.
They’re not a solution to people without parking as a PHEV has to be plugged in frequently or it may actually be less environmentally friendly that a MHEV.
It’s a stepping stone to overcome uncertainty about being able to charge. It’s not range anxiety so much as charging anxiety but the infrastructure is improving all the time and certainly my experience is that it’s already good enough for me not to think twice about journeys that will require public charging.
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Sunday 24th March 13:58
My question is to what extent PHEV self charge? Realise that some may self charge by 'over working' the engine, at the expense of fuel consumption. Surely there will be some self charging during slowing down or down hill sections, or is that so little as to be irrelevant. Set off journey, use electric for first part, gradual self charge during rest of journey, until beneficial situation arises. Aware that in some you can set it to 'save' the battery charge for later.
Are any PHEVs ever charged away from home/destination?
Maybe some taxis at 'rank' chargers. it might have some merit there?
I vaguely recall someone with an i3 REx had some justification for using a public charger in a contrived set of circumstances, which probably boiled down to 'someone else paying'.
Maybe in future it will become significant in Zero Emission Zones?
It might become relevant for vehicles other than private cars?
PHEVs as private cars don't have a long term future, so there is no logic in a new generation of them which might charge much faster or have bigger battery capacity. Other classes of vehicle could be different.
Maybe some taxis at 'rank' chargers. it might have some merit there?
I vaguely recall someone with an i3 REx had some justification for using a public charger in a contrived set of circumstances, which probably boiled down to 'someone else paying'.
Maybe in future it will become significant in Zero Emission Zones?
It might become relevant for vehicles other than private cars?
PHEVs as private cars don't have a long term future, so there is no logic in a new generation of them which might charge much faster or have bigger battery capacity. Other classes of vehicle could be different.
OutInTheShed said:
Are any PHEVs ever charged away from home/destination?
Maybe some taxis at 'rank' chargers. it might have some merit there?
I vaguely recall someone with an i3 REx had some justification for using a public charger in a contrived set of circumstances, which probably boiled down to 'someone else paying'.
Maybe in future it will become significant in Zero Emission Zones?
It might become relevant for vehicles other than private cars?
PHEVs as private cars don't have a long term future, so there is no logic in a new generation of them which might charge much faster or have bigger battery capacity. Other classes of vehicle could be different.
PHEV as private cars do have a long future.Maybe some taxis at 'rank' chargers. it might have some merit there?
I vaguely recall someone with an i3 REx had some justification for using a public charger in a contrived set of circumstances, which probably boiled down to 'someone else paying'.
Maybe in future it will become significant in Zero Emission Zones?
It might become relevant for vehicles other than private cars?
PHEVs as private cars don't have a long term future, so there is no logic in a new generation of them which might charge much faster or have bigger battery capacity. Other classes of vehicle could be different.
Phev makes sense for us. Wife had a Kuga phev. Rarely use petrol as home charge & 8p kwh/40 mile range.
Would never consider public charging it though, at rip off prices.
The new Skoda Superb PHEV look great, 62 mile electric range.
James6112 said:
PHEV as private cars do have a long future.
Phev makes sense for us. Wife had a Kuga phev. Rarely use petrol as home charge & 8p kwh/40 mile range.
Would never consider public charging it though, at rip off prices.
The new Skoda Superb PHEV look great, 62 mile electric range.
But then why have a second powertrain that you hardly ever use,Phev makes sense for us. Wife had a Kuga phev. Rarely use petrol as home charge & 8p kwh/40 mile range.
Would never consider public charging it though, at rip off prices.
The new Skoda Superb PHEV look great, 62 mile electric range.
Why not have an EV with a bigger battery (which weighs more sure, but as we know weight hardly affects the efficiency of EVs due to regenerative braking), and accept that the few times you have to publically charge (which should be hardly ever as you say) it will probably be a similar price to petrol.
Think
Of you BEV like your PHEV but where the petrol engine is replaced by a bit of extra battery if you like!
All the time you don’t have any of the servicing costs of the petrol
Powertrain.
I don’t see why the PHEV is better in this scenario?
740EVTORQUES said:
But then why have a second powertrain that you hardly ever use,
Why not have an EV with a bigger battery (which weighs more sure, but as we know weight hardly affects the efficiency of EVs due to regenerative braking), and accept that the few times you have to publically charge (which should be hardly ever as you say) it will probably be a similar price to petrol.
Think
Of you BEV like your PHEV but where the petrol engine is replaced by a bit of extra battery if you like!
All the time you don’t have any of the servicing costs of the petrol
Powertrain.
I don’t see why the PHEV is better in this scenario?
If a BEV and a PHEV were the same price to buy, then yes, the BEV would make more sense for a lot of people.Why not have an EV with a bigger battery (which weighs more sure, but as we know weight hardly affects the efficiency of EVs due to regenerative braking), and accept that the few times you have to publically charge (which should be hardly ever as you say) it will probably be a similar price to petrol.
Think
Of you BEV like your PHEV but where the petrol engine is replaced by a bit of extra battery if you like!
All the time you don’t have any of the servicing costs of the petrol
Powertrain.
I don’t see why the PHEV is better in this scenario?
Buying new, a PHEV is generally a fair amount cheaper. Because many BEVs currently depreciate badly, they get closer in price as they get older.
There's still the problem of higher insurance premiums on BEVs though, which can outweigh the servicing cost difference.
My next car will probably be a secondhand BEV. Owning a PHEV has convinced me that electric cars work for me.
740EVTORQUES said:
James6112 said:
PHEV as private cars do have a long future.
Phev makes sense for us. Wife had a Kuga phev. Rarely use petrol as home charge & 8p kwh/40 mile range.
Would never consider public charging it though, at rip off prices.
The new Skoda Superb PHEV look great, 62 mile electric range.
But then why have a second powertrain that you hardly ever use,Phev makes sense for us. Wife had a Kuga phev. Rarely use petrol as home charge & 8p kwh/40 mile range.
Would never consider public charging it though, at rip off prices.
The new Skoda Superb PHEV look great, 62 mile electric range.
Why not have an EV with a bigger battery (which weighs more sure, but as we know weight hardly affects the efficiency of EVs due to regenerative braking), and accept that the few times you have to publically charge (which should be hardly ever as you say) it will probably be a similar price to petrol.
Think
Of you BEV like your PHEV but where the petrol engine is replaced by a bit of extra battery if you like!
All the time you don’t have any of the servicing costs of the petrol
Powertrain.
I don’t see why the PHEV is better in this scenario?
Personally wife’s PHEV isn’t used much for longer stuff as I have an old diesel.
My next car will be a BEV, when the diesel workhorse expires, hopefully soon @ 10 years old as i’m bored with it!
Then the PHEV will make more sense as the EV local but petrol long range option.
James6112 said:
PHEV as private cars do have a long future.
Phev makes sense for us. Wife had a Kuga phev. Rarely use petrol as home charge & 8p kwh/40 mile range.
Would never consider public charging it though, at rip off prices.
The new Skoda Superb PHEV look great, 62 mile electric range.
Which carmakers are developing whole new PHEV platforms as 2035 approaches?Phev makes sense for us. Wife had a Kuga phev. Rarely use petrol as home charge & 8p kwh/40 mile range.
Would never consider public charging it though, at rip off prices.
The new Skoda Superb PHEV look great, 62 mile electric range.
While I think PHEVs are great for many people, today, in the UK in the current situation, as private cars they are just a transition phase and won't be going through many more development cycles.
No doubt there are PHEV models in the pipeline and there are lots already available and on the road, they they will be around for 20 years or something, but that's not a very long time in terms of mass production lifetimes.
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