LPG Pump - Pump from red bottle into vehicle/boat fuel tank
Discussion
Been using my LPG pump to refuel from bottled gas.
No need to visit a forecourt to refuel, most of us can have gas delivered to our door in red bottles, no need for a 240v mains power suppy because it runs from a car battery.
Very handy for if/when forecourts don't have any stock of LPG, or distance to nearest forecourt (or marina) that sells LPG is too far, or price of LPG at forecourts / marinas is too high. Sometimes gas suppliers ration the amount of gas they'll sell to forecourts to prioritise home gas users. By buying gas from a local bottled gas supplier I effectively became a more prioritised home gas user and will never be without a supply of LPG.
Gas in red bottles is propane and all LPG/autogas sold at UK forecourts is propane, so it's the same stuff I put in the tank whether it comes from a red bottle or a forecourt.
Will also be very useful for running my boat engine on LPG even if the nearest marina that sells LPG is 10 miles across a choppy bay.. because I'll be able to take the pump when I use the boat and refuel from red bottles wherever I am. Could also refuel the LPG tank on my campervan from a red bottle wherever I am.
The pump does allow me to pump over 90 litres of LPG into a vehicle tank at home in 30 minutes (there are 92.1 litres of LPG in a 47kg red gas bottle) but the ability to 'fill up' without leaving home is perhaps the only similarlity between running an LPG vehicle and running an EV and I don't want this thread to turn into a debate about the pros and cons of LPG or EVs. Please no chat about how / why I should buy an EV vehicle or EV boat instead of having a car and boat that run on LPG. And yes I am aware about road duty etc thanks. And yes this is legal. And yes the pump is well thought out and works well.
No need to visit a forecourt to refuel, most of us can have gas delivered to our door in red bottles, no need for a 240v mains power suppy because it runs from a car battery.
Very handy for if/when forecourts don't have any stock of LPG, or distance to nearest forecourt (or marina) that sells LPG is too far, or price of LPG at forecourts / marinas is too high. Sometimes gas suppliers ration the amount of gas they'll sell to forecourts to prioritise home gas users. By buying gas from a local bottled gas supplier I effectively became a more prioritised home gas user and will never be without a supply of LPG.
Gas in red bottles is propane and all LPG/autogas sold at UK forecourts is propane, so it's the same stuff I put in the tank whether it comes from a red bottle or a forecourt.
Will also be very useful for running my boat engine on LPG even if the nearest marina that sells LPG is 10 miles across a choppy bay.. because I'll be able to take the pump when I use the boat and refuel from red bottles wherever I am. Could also refuel the LPG tank on my campervan from a red bottle wherever I am.
The pump does allow me to pump over 90 litres of LPG into a vehicle tank at home in 30 minutes (there are 92.1 litres of LPG in a 47kg red gas bottle) but the ability to 'fill up' without leaving home is perhaps the only similarlity between running an LPG vehicle and running an EV and I don't want this thread to turn into a debate about the pros and cons of LPG or EVs. Please no chat about how / why I should buy an EV vehicle or EV boat instead of having a car and boat that run on LPG. And yes I am aware about road duty etc thanks. And yes this is legal. And yes the pump is well thought out and works well.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 13th March 12:32
It can and often does seem to work out cheaper than refuelling from forecourts, this depends on the price you can buy bottled gas for in your area.
There are plenty forecourts in my area but Morrisons have gone up in price to 99.7p per litre.
I pay £79.50 for a 47kg bottled delivered to my home. There are 92.1 litres of LPG in a 47kg bottle so this works out at 86.3p per litre, which is 13.4p per litre cheaper than Morrisons forecourt price.
I know people who also bought the pump who are getting 47kg red bottles delivered for £70, which works out at 76p per litre, a saving of 23.7p per litre over Morrisons forecourt price. Or cheaper if you take into account I never have to go out of my way to pass Morrisons to refuel.
Some people pay more for a 47kg red bottle than me.
Best to shop around your local gas suppliers to find the cheapest quotes but also make sure you mention you expect to use quite a lot of gas and haggle the price. Don't take their first quote as set in stone, do 'play them off against each other' e.g. 'The other firm said they'll sell me gas in botles for £X can you match that price?'.
There are plenty forecourts in my area but Morrisons have gone up in price to 99.7p per litre.
I pay £79.50 for a 47kg bottled delivered to my home. There are 92.1 litres of LPG in a 47kg bottle so this works out at 86.3p per litre, which is 13.4p per litre cheaper than Morrisons forecourt price.
I know people who also bought the pump who are getting 47kg red bottles delivered for £70, which works out at 76p per litre, a saving of 23.7p per litre over Morrisons forecourt price. Or cheaper if you take into account I never have to go out of my way to pass Morrisons to refuel.
Some people pay more for a 47kg red bottle than me.
Best to shop around your local gas suppliers to find the cheapest quotes but also make sure you mention you expect to use quite a lot of gas and haggle the price. Don't take their first quote as set in stone, do 'play them off against each other' e.g. 'The other firm said they'll sell me gas in botles for £X can you match that price?'.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Saturday 16th March 17:49
Am I wrong in thinking thats avoiding Customs & Excise tax?
x https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend...
the rate on liquefied petroleum gas is 28.88 pence per kilogram
x https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend...
the rate on liquefied petroleum gas is 28.88 pence per kilogram
Edited by Gerradi on Saturday 16th March 18:05
Gerradi said:
Am I wrong in thinking thats avoiding Customs & Excise tax?
x https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend...
the rate on liquefied petroleum gas is 28.88 pence per kilogram
I did mention road duty (customs and excise tax). It is legal to refuel a fuel tank that fuels the engine on a vehicle from a red bottle if whoever does so pays the road duty on it. A vehicle like a camper van may have an LPG tank that doesn't fuel the engine (is used for e.g. heating / cooking) in which case duty would not need to be paid on that gas legally. Road duty would not need to be paid if refuelling a boat fuel tank. x https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend...
the rate on liquefied petroleum gas is 28.88 pence per kilogram
Edited by Gerradi on Saturday 16th March 18:05
The gas in red propane bottles is identical (and chemically identical) to autogas sold at forecourts, and most people who run LPG vehicles know this. So maybe others who refuel vehicle engine fuel tanks with LPG from red bottles won't pay duty on it (or sometimes wont pay duty on it)... I would advise people to pay duty to stay legal but individuals will make their own choices. The road duty on LPG is around 14.7p per litre.
With the duty added on top of the cost of the red cylinder, it's roughly the same price as forecourts around my way and as one of them is on my route to work, I don't have to go out of my way to fill up.
That LPG pump is scheduled to disappear sometime in 2025 according to someone who works there and then it will be much more inconvenient for me to fill up, but we'll see what happens.
That LPG pump is scheduled to disappear sometime in 2025 according to someone who works there and then it will be much more inconvenient for me to fill up, but we'll see what happens.
Pistom said:
Rather than cylinders, is there any reason you can't have a tank installed in your garden and get home delivery?
That's about 50p/litre at the moment.
That is correct...That's about 50p/litre at the moment.
Yes you can have a bulk tank installed. And yes it can work out cheaper than gas in bottles or forecourts. But not everyone has somewhere to site a bulk tank and a bulk tank will have a much higher setup cost.The setup cost for what I have written about (filling from bottles) is only the cost of the deposit / surcharge on the bottle of around £50 (which is reimbursed to you should you let the gas company collect their empty bottle and not have them deliver a full bottle). Versus the cost of a bulk tank (either second hand or taking the more expensive route of having a new tank fitted on some sort of contract terms). It's unlikely I'd recommend having a new bulk tank on contract from one of the big players such as Calor or Flogas because their prices and contract terms are usually verging on rip-off prices... But if you can buy a second hand tank and have an independent gas supplier refil it you'd be more likely to get gas at lower cost. Still higher setup cost than the £50 bottle surcharge (effectively free setup because the surcharge is reimbursed when you've done using the bottle).
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Saturday 16th March 20:26
Oops, in my last post I forgot to include the cost of the pump. The pumps I'm talking about are £375 + £7 shipping.
So that is a setup cost on top of the average £50 surcharge for the bottle. I know I've said it before but the surcharge is reimbursed if/when you tell the gas supplier you no longer want to keep one of their bottles.
But you would need a pump with a bulk tank setup anyway. This pump would also work with a bulk tank setup, so even if you switched from refuelling from bottled gas to refuelling with gas from a bulk tank you could still use this pump. Most pumps used with bulk tanks cost £thousands of pounds not £375, so even if you switched from filling from red bottles to filling from a bulk tank this pump would still be a very good buy.
So that is a setup cost on top of the average £50 surcharge for the bottle. I know I've said it before but the surcharge is reimbursed if/when you tell the gas supplier you no longer want to keep one of their bottles.
But you would need a pump with a bulk tank setup anyway. This pump would also work with a bulk tank setup, so even if you switched from refuelling from bottled gas to refuelling with gas from a bulk tank you could still use this pump. Most pumps used with bulk tanks cost £thousands of pounds not £375, so even if you switched from filling from red bottles to filling from a bulk tank this pump would still be a very good buy.
This pump can do more than just pump from bottle to vehicle. Due to its design (with quick fit interchangeable ends on the input and output lines) it can also pump from bottle to bottle, etc. To pump from bottle to bottle you just need a different output end fitting (the pump is supplied with input end fitting that connects to a bottle and output end fitting that connects to a vehicle LPG filling point). Various types of end fitting are available and very inexpensive.
I know some people who have static caravans have bought a pump. Their idea is that they will drive from home (where they could refuel from a bottle using the pump), arrive at their static caravan (which probably has 2 red bottles) and refuel from one of the red bottles at the static caravan.
I know some people who have boats who have bought the pump. On some boats the engine runs on LPG. Other boats carry a red gas bottle to run the cooker and/or heating. The pump allows refuelling of the boat engine LPG fuel tank and the boat red bottle. The output line can even be extended so for example a big red bottle could remain on land / on a jetty, while the boat is still in the water, and the pump will pump gas from wherever the source bottle is to the boat.
I know some people who have static caravans have bought a pump. Their idea is that they will drive from home (where they could refuel from a bottle using the pump), arrive at their static caravan (which probably has 2 red bottles) and refuel from one of the red bottles at the static caravan.
I know some people who have boats who have bought the pump. On some boats the engine runs on LPG. Other boats carry a red gas bottle to run the cooker and/or heating. The pump allows refuelling of the boat engine LPG fuel tank and the boat red bottle. The output line can even be extended so for example a big red bottle could remain on land / on a jetty, while the boat is still in the water, and the pump will pump gas from wherever the source bottle is to the boat.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Saturday 16th March 21:08
I can't see any link to the particular pump you've got but it looks a very convenient method of running a bi-fuel vehicle.
How would someone go about paying the fuel duty?
I'm not sure why Morrisons have jumped up in price on LPG but that price hike does make LPG from a forecourt look less attractive.
How would someone go about paying the fuel duty?
I'm not sure why Morrisons have jumped up in price on LPG but that price hike does make LPG from a forecourt look less attractive.
DaveCWK said:
I had no idea little electric pumps were available like that for LPG - any links/details on the spec/fittings?
Do you have to refuel with the calor bottle upside down so you pull liquid?
You do have to have the bottle upside down to get all the gas out of it because the pump pumps liquid. Do you have to refuel with the calor bottle upside down so you pull liquid?
Send me an email and I'll reply to tell you where to get one..
In other news, you can run some diesel engines on heating oil.
Or Red Diesel. Or veg oil.
It's the same crime as running an LPG car on non-road LPG.
If you want to transfer LPG from one tank to another, you don't need a pump if you can have the donor tank warmer than the recipient.
Lots of people refilling Camping Gaz cylinders this way.
Or Red Diesel. Or veg oil.
It's the same crime as running an LPG car on non-road LPG.
If you want to transfer LPG from one tank to another, you don't need a pump if you can have the donor tank warmer than the recipient.
Lots of people refilling Camping Gaz cylinders this way.
OutInTheShed said:
In other news, you can run some diesel engines on heating oil.
Or Red Diesel. Or veg oil.
It's the same crime as running an LPG car on non-road LPG.
If you want to transfer LPG from one tank to another, you don't need a pump if you can have the donor tank warmer than the recipient.
Lots of people refilling Camping Gaz cylinders this way.
There are problems with the heating the tank method which make the method unreliable and unworkable. Warmed gas flows from one tank to the other and is still warm in the other tank so the other tank is soon at the same pressure and no gas flows. A vehicle LPG setup has 2 x one way valves between the fill port and the tank, one on the tank itself, one at the filiing point. These valves take a few psi to open and unless they are open no gas will flow anyway. The idea is to be able to pump all the gas from a bottle to a vehicle tank because nobody wants to return a bottle that is still partly full of gas for obvious reasons, but you'll never be able to transfer all the gas out of a bottle into a vehicle tank using the temperature difference method, you might eventually manage say 70% but slowly. The pump reliably pumps all the gas from a bottle to a vehicle tank. Or Red Diesel. Or veg oil.
It's the same crime as running an LPG car on non-road LPG.
If you want to transfer LPG from one tank to another, you don't need a pump if you can have the donor tank warmer than the recipient.
Lots of people refilling Camping Gaz cylinders this way.
If you want to transfer a bit of gas from one bottle to another, then since bottles don't have one way valves you could just decant by holding the full tank upside down over the lower tank, eventually it will fill the lower tank, but not as quickly as using a pump.
It's normal to try to transfer the LPG as liquid rather than gas.
With the temperature difference method, the normal problem is avoiding over filling the recipient tank.
The pressure to open the non return valves would be a problem though.
Also does it make a difference that Autogas is a mix of propane and butane, whereas most people refilling cylinders are just talking about Butane?.
Quite a lot of people with campervans and boats have moved towards running their cookers and sometimes heaters from Autogas using refillable cylinders, because Camping Gaz is absurdly expensive per litre and Calor have been shapeless at providing ia reliable supply of smaller cylinders which are cheaper than camping gaz but still several £ per litre.
Is it OK to run an LPG car on pure propane or butane?
With the temperature difference method, the normal problem is avoiding over filling the recipient tank.
The pressure to open the non return valves would be a problem though.
Also does it make a difference that Autogas is a mix of propane and butane, whereas most people refilling cylinders are just talking about Butane?.
Quite a lot of people with campervans and boats have moved towards running their cookers and sometimes heaters from Autogas using refillable cylinders, because Camping Gaz is absurdly expensive per litre and Calor have been shapeless at providing ia reliable supply of smaller cylinders which are cheaper than camping gaz but still several £ per litre.
Is it OK to run an LPG car on pure propane or butane?
OutInTheShed said:
Also does it make a difference that Autogas is a mix of propane and butane, whereas most people refilling cylinders are just talking about Butane?.
Quite a lot of people with campervans and boats have moved towards running their cookers and sometimes heaters from Autogas using refillable cylinders, because Camping Gaz is absurdly expensive per litre and Calor have been shapeless at providing ia reliable supply of smaller cylinders which are cheaper than camping gaz but still several £ per litre.
Is it OK to run an LPG car on pure propane or butane?
Butane typically burns cleaner, but freeze in lower temperatures. Which is why it's mixed with propane.Quite a lot of people with campervans and boats have moved towards running their cookers and sometimes heaters from Autogas using refillable cylinders, because Camping Gaz is absurdly expensive per litre and Calor have been shapeless at providing ia reliable supply of smaller cylinders which are cheaper than camping gaz but still several £ per litre.
Is it OK to run an LPG car on pure propane or butane?
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