Are older EV/PHEV cars a bad idea?

[krishn]

Hi,

I'm in the market for a new car and one on the primary factors in choice of car is it's fuel efficiency. I had been set on getting a Countryman PHEV as the fuel efficiency looked awesome, though I've been pretty flexible on the car so long as fuel efficiency was good. After a bit more reading, I've seen some horror stories about the cost of replacing a battery and I'm not so sure it's a good idea. I'd realistically be looking at a 3/4 year old car, with a view to keeping it for 8 years. I'd be looking at a car under 60k miles with a view to doing about 10kish a year. With that in mind, I feel like with the numbers I'd rack up, I'd be at the point that I'd need to replace the battery and so I'm not sure an electric car is a good idea. If the battery fails after 8 years, I'd be fine with cutting my losses if it came to it. Am I being irrational in my fears? Just curious as well if you can remove a battery from the PHEV and run it solely on petrol/diesel?

[Nomme de Plum]

I'm not sure why you think battery replacement will be required.

When you buy a 3 year old ICE do you look at the cost of a new engine and gearbox from the main dealer? Hopefully not.

Set a budget and look at whatever 3 year old EV fits your requirement.

I am assuming you can charge at home in which case you will have very cheap motoring at c2p per mile when home charging. You also get the benefit of cheap ?(7p/kWhr) electric at night and possibly during the day.

A PHEV will run in ICE mode alone. You cannot remove the battery.

[OutInTheShed]

A PHEV will just lose electric range.
So long as it has a decent sized fuel tank, an old PHEV with 50% of its original electric range is often still a viable car.
Depends how it aligns with the journeys you need to do.
I know a couple of people with older PHEVs, they do lots of local 'work' miles on electric, but with fuel in the tank, they are always ready to go a long way at no notice. It works for them.

[Europa Jon]

The battery in a modern EV is not an issue. The best long-term data is from Tesla drivers, due to them being around with the Model S for over a decade, with properly-heated/cooled battery modules.

[samoht]

krishn said:

Hi, I had been set on getting a Countryman PHEV as the fuel efficiency looked awesome, though I've been pretty flexible on the car so long as fuel efficiency was good.

There are a lot of nonsensical 'fuel economy' figures quoted for plug-in hybrids, inflated by the fact that the battery has actually done most of the driving.

AFAIK most of them get 'infinity' mpg when doing shorter trips only on electric (obviously), and on the other hand on a longer motorway journey they'll get about the same as a non-hybrid car of the same size and engine would.

The reason to buy a PHEV is if you do lots of short journeys within its electrical range, but need to do the occasional longer one, that way your annual petrol consumption will be low and you can use cheap home electricity for most of your miles. But it can't magically do 100mpg on a motorway.

[TheDeuce]

krishn said:

Hi,

I'm in the market for a new car and one on the primary factors in choice of car is it's fuel efficiency. I had been set on getting a Countryman PHEV as the fuel efficiency looked awesome, though I've been pretty flexible on the car so long as fuel efficiency was good. After a bit more reading, I've seen some horror stories about the cost of replacing a battery and I'm not so sure it's a good idea. I'd realistically be looking at a 3/4 year old car, with a view to keeping it for 8 years. I'd be looking at a car under 60k miles with a view to doing about 10kish a year. With that in mind, I feel like with the numbers I'd rack up, I'd be at the point that I'd need to replace the battery and so I'm not sure an electric car is a good idea. If the battery fails after 8 years, I'd be fine with cutting my losses if it came to it. Am I being irrational in my fears? Just curious as well if you can remove a battery from the PHEV and run it solely on petrol/diesel?

If you buy at 60k and add another 80k miles over the 8 years, your EV/PHEV will have a battery with just 140k miles total. The most pessimistic predictions of battery life tend to start at 200k miles, but in reality many earlier EV's have swept passed that milestone now.

Battery degradation is also generally proving less of a factor than first estimated too. Time affects capacity as well as use, so I would expect very roughly 20% real world range reduction by the time the car is that age and mileage. In a full BEV that sort of range drop probably wouldn't be a big deal, especially given it will occur as the charging network continues to improve. In a PHEV, due to limited electric only range when new, an older one could start to make a lot less sense in efficiency terms. Also there appears to be some evidence that (as would make sense) a far smaller battery has less headroom for effective battery management and % rate of degradation can be higher.

If you're worried at all, for the above reason BEV probably makes more long terms sense, it'll also save you the hassle of dealing with and maintaining the ICE side of the powertrain. Overall though, whichever way you go you're very unlikely to be paying for a new battery pack.

[JustGetATesla]

krishn said:

Hi,

I'm in the market for a new car and one on the primary factors in choice of car is it's fuel efficiency. I had been set on getting a Countryman PHEV as the fuel efficiency looked awesome, though I've been pretty flexible on the car so long as fuel efficiency was good. After a bit more reading, I've seen some horror stories about the cost of replacing a battery and I'm not so sure it's a good idea. I'd realistically be looking at a 3/4 year old car, with a view to keeping it for 8 years. I'd be looking at a car under 60k miles with a view to doing about 10kish a year. With that in mind, I feel like with the numbers I'd rack up, I'd be at the point that I'd need to replace the battery and so I'm not sure an electric car is a good idea. If the battery fails after 8 years, I'd be fine with cutting my losses if it came to it. Am I being irrational in my fears? Just curious as well if you can remove a battery from the PHEV and run it solely on petrol/diesel?

There is Good News. The FUD you have been fed about batteries is Not True. You will not need to replace the traction battery. Ever.

[Evanivitch]

JustGetATesla said:

There is Good News. The FUD you have been fed about batteries is Not True. You will not need to replace the traction battery. Ever.

That's not true.

But it's certainly a much overhyped criticism of EVs.

[Mikehig]

Nomme de Plum said:

A PHEV will run in ICE mode alone. You cannot remove the battery.

Don't these use an integrated starter/generator rather than a conventional starter motor?
If so a dead battery would immobilise the car.

[Nomme de Plum]

Mikehig said:

Nomme de Plum said:

A PHEV will run in ICE mode alone. You cannot remove the battery.

Don't these use an integrated starter/generator rather than a conventional starter motor?
If so a dead battery would immobilise the car.

A PHEV has a 12 volt battery and system with starter just like a conventional ICE car. So no.

Obviously of the 12 volt battery fails then not will be exactly the same as an ICE.

[MrTrilby]

Nomme de Plum said:

A PHEV has a 12 volt battery and system with starter just like a conventional ICE car. So no.

Obviously of the 12 volt battery fails then not will be exactly the same as an ICE.

This is a poor generalisation. I don’t know the specifics of the Countryman PHEV, but on our Volvo PHEV, the 12v battery runs the ancilliaries only. There is no conventional starter. The traction battery is required to operate the starter/generator. If the traction battery were dead, it would not be possible to operate the starter/generator and start the ICE either.

[JustGetATesla]

Evanivitch said:

That's not true.

But it's certainly a much overhyped criticism of EVs.

We aren't talking about EVs. I have had 2 Outlander PHEV's. You hear very occasional cases of a battery getting replaced under warranty. But that's it. The thing never uses the top or bottom of the charge range, isn't under stress, isnt going to degrade into unusibility.

Whereas car replacement engines? Happens more often. But people don't think about it because unlike a traction battery it isn't a "new" technology.

[Jon39]

Nomme de Plum said:

A PHEV will run in ICE mode alone. You cannot remove the battery.

Do you provide a guarantee with your statement ?

Ask the two owners of 9 year old PHEV E-Class saloons.
Batteries failed just out of warranty (8 years)
IC engine could not be started, because the engine and lithium batteries worked in conjuction.
Cost to replace the battery exceeded the vehicles' value.
One car was scrapped and the other is now an ornament.

[Nomme de Plum]

Jon39 said:

Nomme de Plum said:

A PHEV will run in ICE mode alone. You cannot remove the battery.

Do you provide a guarantee with your statement ?

Ask the two owners of 9 year old PHEV E-Class saloons.
Batteries failed just out of warranty (8 years)
IC engine could not be started, because the engine and lithium batteries worked in conjuction.
Cost to replace the battery exceeded the vehicles' value.
One car was scrapped and the other is now an ornament.

I read the battery removal as a user function rather than a main dealer replacement like a 12V battery. Obviously almost anything can be removed and replaced by a Main Dealer

It would appear that manufacturers have gone away from the 12V battery starter design. Whether that is a good thing or not remains to be seen.

Edited by Nomme de Plum on Wednesday 7th February 08:56

Edited by Nomme de Plum on Wednesday 7th February 09:01

[Nomme de Plum]

MrTrilby said:

Nomme de Plum said:

A PHEV has a 12 volt battery and system with starter just like a conventional ICE car. So no.

Obviously of the 12 volt battery fails then not will be exactly the same as an ICE.

This is a poor generalisation. I don’t know the specifics of the Countryman PHEV, but on our Volvo PHEV, the 12v battery runs the ancilliaries only. There is no conventional starter. The traction battery is required to operate the starter/generator. If the traction battery were dead, it would not be possible to operate the starter/generator and start the ICE either.

You are correct I've now checked further designs have moved on. I sold my hybrid and went full EV. I won't go back.

[kurokawa]

samoht said:

There are a lot of nonsensical 'fuel economy' figures quoted for plug-in hybrids, inflated by the fact that the battery has actually done most of the driving.

My countryman PHEV when running ICE only, the MPG is so poor at low 30

it is one of the worst PHEV, very short battery range, tiny fuel tank with a underpower engine on a heavy car

[TheDeuce]

kurokawa said:

samoht said:

There are a lot of nonsensical 'fuel economy' figures quoted for plug-in hybrids, inflated by the fact that the battery has actually done most of the driving.

My countryman PHEV when running ICE only, the MPG is so poor at low 30

it is one of the worst PHEV, very short battery range, tiny fuel tank with a underpower engine on a heavy car

This is why I always refer to PHEV's as the worst of both worlds. In ICE only you have an inefficient and relatively slow ICE car that is dragging around a motor and battery pack. In EV only mode you have an EV that has to drag around an ICE and has limited range.

That's not to say that in some scenarios a PHEV isn't the ideal choice, but in terms of performance and efficiency, it's a compromise between the two technologies that offers some the benefits of both technologies but absolutely not 'the best' of either.

[Mikehig]

Nomme de Plum said:

MrTrilby said:

Nomme de Plum said:

A PHEV has a 12 volt battery and system with starter just like a conventional ICE car. So no.

Obviously of the 12 volt battery fails then not will be exactly the same as an ICE.

This is a poor generalisation. I don’t know the specifics of the Countryman PHEV, but on our Volvo PHEV, the 12v battery runs the ancilliaries only. There is no conventional starter. The traction battery is required to operate the starter/generator. If the traction battery were dead, it would not be possible to operate the starter/generator and start the ICE either.

You are correct I've now checked further designs have moved on. I sold my hybrid and went full EV. I won't go back.

Thanks for clarifying this.
From earlier comments I learnt that PHEVs typically now have long battery warranties, similar to full EVs. So the risk of battery failure immobilising the car won't be disastrous until the vehicle is pretty old - much like the risk of engine/transmission failure in an old ICE.

[Evanivitch]

JustGetATesla said:

Evanivitch said:

That's not true.

But it's certainly a much overhyped criticism of EVs.

We aren't talking about EVs. I have had 2 Outlander PHEV's. You hear very occasional cases of a battery getting replaced under warranty. But that's it. The thing never uses the top or bottom of the charge range, isn't under stress, isnt going to degrade into unusibility.

Whereas car replacement engines? Happens more often. But people don't think about it because unlike a traction battery it isn't a "new" technology.

Ampera/Volt battery systems are starting to go (old now), C300e have had many battery replacement issues too.

Rhis isn't about battery wear/cycle, it's just a case that something in batteries does fail besides cells.

[Nomme de Plum]

Mikehig said:

Thanks for clarifying this.
From earlier comments I learnt that PHEVs typically now have long battery warranties, similar to full EVs. So the risk of battery failure immobilising the car won't be disastrous until the vehicle is pretty old - much like the risk of engine/transmission failure in an old ICE.

I was really disappointed with the fuel consumption of mine. Maybe my expectation was too high but only ever saw high 40s on a long run.

I think PHEVs maybe a stop gap for the next 5 or so years but after that infrastructure and cost reductions should make EVs more attractive for most.