Training needed for new EV owners
Discussion
Polestar brake flashers
After seeing more than one Polestar randomly flashing its brake lights on a dark M1 recently I can only assume they are on max regen or autopilot that brakes all the bloody time.
It’s dangerous braking randomly or over cautiously on a wet dark motorway and it’ll cause accidents.
After seeing more than one Polestar randomly flashing its brake lights on a dark M1 recently I can only assume they are on max regen or autopilot that brakes all the bloody time.
It’s dangerous braking randomly or over cautiously on a wet dark motorway and it’ll cause accidents.
DSLiverpool said:
Polestar brake flashers
After seeing more than one Polestar randomly flashing its brake lights on a dark M1 recently I can only assume they are on max regen or autopilot that brakes all the bloody time.
It’s dangerous braking randomly or over cautiously on a wet dark motorway and it’ll cause accidents.
Consider yourself lucky you are not a passenger in the car - feeling sick.After seeing more than one Polestar randomly flashing its brake lights on a dark M1 recently I can only assume they are on max regen or autopilot that brakes all the bloody time.
It’s dangerous braking randomly or over cautiously on a wet dark motorway and it’ll cause accidents.
Better to run an EV on lower regen if using cruise control - much smoother. Plus lower regen doesn't effect efficiency in most EVs as braking blended so even if you have to touch the brake pedal it's still regen unless braking hard.
Discombobulate said:
Consider yourself lucky you are not a passenger in the car - feeling sick.
Better to run an EV on lower regen if using cruise control - much smoother. Plus lower regen doesn't effect efficiency in most EVs as braking blended so even if you have to touch the brake pedal it's still regen unless braking hard.
I think most people don't understand this point and think that higher regeneration = higher efficiency. Doesn't help that certain car reviewers on YT bang on about one pedal driving all the time and give the impression that it's better to have higher regeneration for better savings.Better to run an EV on lower regen if using cruise control - much smoother. Plus lower regen doesn't effect efficiency in most EVs as braking blended so even if you have to touch the brake pedal it's still regen unless braking hard.
multiple EV owner here and the issue isn't just with "one pedal driving"; it's with manufacturers not having a standard.
VW iD3 - if you touched the brake pedal when coasting the brake lights would not come on unless a certain G of deceleration occurred.
Current Volvo C40 - brake light comes on with the slightest press of the brake pedal.
Citreon C4x - followed one the other day and saw it come to a slow stop and the brake lights never illuminated.
Tesla - similar to VW in certain G of deceleration.
VW iD3 - if you touched the brake pedal when coasting the brake lights would not come on unless a certain G of deceleration occurred.
Current Volvo C40 - brake light comes on with the slightest press of the brake pedal.
Citreon C4x - followed one the other day and saw it come to a slow stop and the brake lights never illuminated.
Tesla - similar to VW in certain G of deceleration.
I prefer to turn OPD off on the motorway, though I'd love it if the Polestar had paddles to enable this, rather than having to go through the settings on screen. Either way, it's not a Polestar specific problem, IME VW's seem far more eager to flash the brake lights.
Re. training, almost definitely! I helped a woman at Booths in Ripon over Christmas who had pulled up to the InstaVolt chargers, proceeded to pop the frunk and get her own cable out, then wonder why there was nowhere to plug it in. She then grabbed the CHAdeMO and tried that.
Re. training, almost definitely! I helped a woman at Booths in Ripon over Christmas who had pulled up to the InstaVolt chargers, proceeded to pop the frunk and get her own cable out, then wonder why there was nowhere to plug it in. She then grabbed the CHAdeMO and tried that.
TheDrownedApe said:
multiple EV owner here and the issue isn't just with "one pedal driving"; it's with manufacturers not having a standard.
...
Citreon C4x - followed one the other day and saw it come to a slow stop and the brake lights never illuminated.
...
I can confirm that the e-C4 user manual states that regen braking doesn't light the brake lights....
Citreon C4x - followed one the other day and saw it come to a slow stop and the brake lights never illuminated.
...
I assume that the Citroen people saw the EU rule requiring brake light illumination above a certain rate of deceleration, and thought 'that sounds a bit complicated, lets just limit our regen to just under the threshold at which brake lights would be legally required'.
(Other things the Citroen developers thought "a bit complicated" include displaying the charge % of the battery on the dashboard while driving).
It is the one pedal driving setting causing this rather than regen specifically as the Polestar prioritises regen braking rather than physical brakes at all times and it can't be adjusted.
As mentioned, OPD is a bit of a faff to toggle on and off as it is a few selections deep in the menus.
It is perfectly possible to drive using OPD without the brake lights flashing but the problem is that you have to have a slightly depressed pedal and it is so sensitive that even a slight lifting off will slow the car down. It is difficult to maintain said foot position due to natural fatigue so is much easier to just turn it off completely.
The answer has to be a quicker way to toggle the setting which may appear as an OTA update if enough people moan. Otherwise using adaptive cruise makes it much smoother on motorways
As mentioned, OPD is a bit of a faff to toggle on and off as it is a few selections deep in the menus.
It is perfectly possible to drive using OPD without the brake lights flashing but the problem is that you have to have a slightly depressed pedal and it is so sensitive that even a slight lifting off will slow the car down. It is difficult to maintain said foot position due to natural fatigue so is much easier to just turn it off completely.
The answer has to be a quicker way to toggle the setting which may appear as an OTA update if enough people moan. Otherwise using adaptive cruise makes it much smoother on motorways
After experimenting with various levels of regen on our Kona (paddles make this easy) I now drive with regen at 0. I prefer the way the car flows along most open roads and was also surprised to find it improved the economy, at odds to what is suggested in the handbook and motoring press.
Brake lights do not illuminate at all in level 1 and only come on with level 2 beyond a certain level of retardation. Level 3 feels a little too intrusive for me. Pull and hold the left paddle for level 4 and it slows pretty damn quickly. If I do use it I set it to 1.
Potentially the most useful feature is auto regen where the car detects slowing vehicles/obstacles ahead or when descending and slows accordingly. It can however result in a less than smooth drive in congested traffic - as before, can be toggled on and off via the paddles.
I've posted before that one pedal driving might just catch out the less experienced in poor conditions. Most drivers wouldn't brake hard mid corner but lift off in some EV's and they'll be doing exactly that.
Brake lights do not illuminate at all in level 1 and only come on with level 2 beyond a certain level of retardation. Level 3 feels a little too intrusive for me. Pull and hold the left paddle for level 4 and it slows pretty damn quickly. If I do use it I set it to 1.
Potentially the most useful feature is auto regen where the car detects slowing vehicles/obstacles ahead or when descending and slows accordingly. It can however result in a less than smooth drive in congested traffic - as before, can be toggled on and off via the paddles.
I've posted before that one pedal driving might just catch out the less experienced in poor conditions. Most drivers wouldn't brake hard mid corner but lift off in some EV's and they'll be doing exactly that.
5s Alive said:
After experimenting with various levels of regen on our Kona (paddles make this easy) I now drive with regen at 0. I prefer the way the car flows along most open roads and was also surprised to find it improved the economy, at odds to what is suggested in the handbook and motoring press.
Brake lights do not illuminate at all in level 1 and only come on with level 2 beyond a certain level of retardation. Level 3 feels a little too intrusive for me. Pull and hold the left paddle for level 4 and it slows pretty damn quickly. If I do use it I set it to 1.
Potentially the most useful feature is auto regen where the car detects slowing vehicles/obstacles ahead or when descending and slows accordingly. It can however result in a less than smooth drive in congested traffic - as before, can be toggled on and off via the paddles.
I've posted before that one pedal driving might just catch out the less experienced in poor conditions. Most drivers wouldn't brake hard mid corner but lift off in some EV's and they'll be doing exactly that.
My Ioniq 5 also has the paddles. I usually leave the regen on auto for most things and 0 for cruising on the motorway.Brake lights do not illuminate at all in level 1 and only come on with level 2 beyond a certain level of retardation. Level 3 feels a little too intrusive for me. Pull and hold the left paddle for level 4 and it slows pretty damn quickly. If I do use it I set it to 1.
Potentially the most useful feature is auto regen where the car detects slowing vehicles/obstacles ahead or when descending and slows accordingly. It can however result in a less than smooth drive in congested traffic - as before, can be toggled on and off via the paddles.
I've posted before that one pedal driving might just catch out the less experienced in poor conditions. Most drivers wouldn't brake hard mid corner but lift off in some EV's and they'll be doing exactly that.
John87 said:
It is the one pedal driving setting causing this rather than regen specifically as the Polestar prioritises regen braking rather than physical brakes at all times and it can't be adjusted.
As mentioned, OPD is a bit of a faff to toggle on and off as it is a few selections deep in the menus.
It is perfectly possible to drive using OPD without the brake lights flashing but the problem is that you have to have a slightly depressed pedal and it is so sensitive that even a slight lifting off will slow the car down. It is difficult to maintain said foot position due to natural fatigue so is much easier to just turn it off completely.
The answer has to be a quicker way to toggle the setting which may appear as an OTA update if enough people moan. Otherwise using adaptive cruise makes it much smoother on motorways
All EV's use regen to brake, irrespective of opd or regen level selected. The only difference is automated lift off/cruise braking Vs putting your foot on the brake - but either way they will all use as much regen as possible ahead of friction braking.As mentioned, OPD is a bit of a faff to toggle on and off as it is a few selections deep in the menus.
It is perfectly possible to drive using OPD without the brake lights flashing but the problem is that you have to have a slightly depressed pedal and it is so sensitive that even a slight lifting off will slow the car down. It is difficult to maintain said foot position due to natural fatigue so is much easier to just turn it off completely.
The answer has to be a quicker way to toggle the setting which may appear as an OTA update if enough people moan. Otherwise using adaptive cruise makes it much smoother on motorways
This isn't an EV problem at all - it's a problem with cars using adaptive cruise activating the brake lights even if they're only making a tiny adjustment to speed. As has been said, most cars guage actual deceleration rate to determine whether or not brake lights are required... Clearly some manufacturers have not implemented that as well as others.
There's nothing the driver can do about this, it's just one of endless issues we're going to encounter as one half of the cars on the road are driving themselves, whilst the other half are under control of a human that expects human behaviour from the car in front.
TheDeuce said:
All EV's use regen to brake, irrespective of opd or regen level selected. The only difference is automated lift off/cruise braking Vs putting your foot on the brake - but either way they will all use as much regen as possible ahead of friction braking.
This isn't an EV problem at all - it's a problem with cars using adaptive cruise activating the brake lights even if they're only making a tiny adjustment to speed. As has been said, most cars guage actual deceleration rate to determine whether or not brake lights are required... Clearly some manufacturers have not implemented that as well as others.
There's nothing the driver can do about this, it's just one of endless issues we're going to encounter as one half of the cars on the road are driving themselves, whilst the other half are under control of a human that expects human behaviour from the car in front.
It's nothing to do with adaptive cruise- at least on the Polestar. There has actually been a fair bit of criticism over the last few months following an OTA update because the cruise control and speed limiter do not stick to the set speed and drift a few mph either side to make it smoother and more efficient. It makes the limiter part completely pointless but that's a different issue.This isn't an EV problem at all - it's a problem with cars using adaptive cruise activating the brake lights even if they're only making a tiny adjustment to speed. As has been said, most cars guage actual deceleration rate to determine whether or not brake lights are required... Clearly some manufacturers have not implemented that as well as others.
There's nothing the driver can do about this, it's just one of endless issues we're going to encounter as one half of the cars on the road are driving themselves, whilst the other half are under control of a human that expects human behaviour from the car in front.
It is actually very easy to tell when brake lights are illuminated in the Polestar because they light up the top of the rear window so I know from experience that they rarely illuminate while using cruise control other than when actually slowing due to traffic where it seems to be in line with other cars including ICE.
The lights do however illuminate when using full OPD because it is very sensitive and a slight lift where you would be coasting in a traditional drivetrain would instead apply the brakes. It take a bit of practice to get that the car can coast as any other car but you need the pedal slightly depressed to do so. If you move between different cars or drive infrequently I can see how it is not very intuitive and I do notice the odd flicker in my own rear view at first if I haven't used it for a few days.
I'm speaking from experience of the performance model which has different throttle mapping so it may be different on other versions.
John87 said:
TheDeuce said:
All EV's use regen to brake, irrespective of opd or regen level selected. The only difference is automated lift off/cruise braking Vs putting your foot on the brake - but either way they will all use as much regen as possible ahead of friction braking.
This isn't an EV problem at all - it's a problem with cars using adaptive cruise activating the brake lights even if they're only making a tiny adjustment to speed. As has been said, most cars guage actual deceleration rate to determine whether or not brake lights are required... Clearly some manufacturers have not implemented that as well as others.
There's nothing the driver can do about this, it's just one of endless issues we're going to encounter as one half of the cars on the road are driving themselves, whilst the other half are under control of a human that expects human behaviour from the car in front.
It's nothing to do with adaptive cruise- at least on the Polestar. There has actually been a fair bit of criticism over the last few months following an OTA update because the cruise control and speed limiter do not stick to the set speed and drift a few mph either side to make it smoother and more efficient. It makes the limiter part completely pointless but that's a different issue.This isn't an EV problem at all - it's a problem with cars using adaptive cruise activating the brake lights even if they're only making a tiny adjustment to speed. As has been said, most cars guage actual deceleration rate to determine whether or not brake lights are required... Clearly some manufacturers have not implemented that as well as others.
There's nothing the driver can do about this, it's just one of endless issues we're going to encounter as one half of the cars on the road are driving themselves, whilst the other half are under control of a human that expects human behaviour from the car in front.
It is actually very easy to tell when brake lights are illuminated in the Polestar because they light up the top of the rear window so I know from experience that they rarely illuminate while using cruise control other than when actually slowing due to traffic where it seems to be in line with other cars including ICE.
The lights do however illuminate when using full OPD because it is very sensitive and a slight lift where you would be coasting in a traditional drivetrain would instead apply the brakes. It take a bit of practice to get that the car can coast as any other car but you need the pedal slightly depressed to do so. If you move between different cars or drive infrequently I can see how it is not very intuitive and I do notice the odd flicker in my own rear view at first if I haven't used it for a few days.
I'm speaking from experience of the performance model which has different throttle mapping so it may be different on other versions.
In the second part I lazily referenced only adaptive cruise... But I still meant both that and also opd.
I haven't had the polestar experience you have but I understand what's happening and it's fairly clear that they messed up! Or perhaps they're being Volvo and have decided extra brake lights are better no matter what.. the same way they once decided that headlights should be on all the time - in fairness that one played out quite well. I don't think excessive brake light flashing is quite as useful though.
DSLiverpool said:
gotoPzero said:
When you say brake flash - do you mean rapid flashing (i.e emergency brake) or just regular on and off but more than normal.
Just coming on randomly causing others behind to overcompensate 
As someone said above, it must be quite uncomfortable for the driver because regen only illuminates the brake lights when it gets above something like 0.1g and whilst 0.1g isn't huge, it's significant enough that repeatedly crossing that threshold on the motorway is going to feel very odd.
Perhaps the threshold for brake light illumination should be higher? Something like 0.2g?
Edited by kambites on Sunday 21st January 09:39
DSLiverpool said:
Polestar brake flashers
After seeing more than one Polestar randomly flashing its brake lights on a dark M1 recently I can only assume they are on max regen or autopilot that brakes all the bloody time.
It’s dangerous braking randomly or over cautiously on a wet dark motorway and it’ll cause accidents.
The outside lane brake light tap dance has been a thing for decades, if you're having to react to it you're too close, keep a 2-3 second distance from the car in front (more if it's wet) and you'll be the one to break the chain. After seeing more than one Polestar randomly flashing its brake lights on a dark M1 recently I can only assume they are on max regen or autopilot that brakes all the bloody time.
It’s dangerous braking randomly or over cautiously on a wet dark motorway and it’ll cause accidents.
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