Discussion
I see this being mentioned a lot in relation to people that are not convinced an EV will be practical choice for them due to their own use situation.
From my own point of view one would make perfect sense for my wife and for many journeys we do as a family but it doesn't when it comes to my own personal use. I regularly do 400 to 500 mile fishing trips that involve finishing a shift at work, heading home, bite to eat, chuck gear in car, pick mate up 70 or so miles away in Glasgow then straight off to the first mark we intend to fish.
Usually fish ourselves to a standstill, back to car for kip (parking up somewhere quiet in the shade) get up,bite to eat then do the same for the next two days. Finish fishing, drop him off in the middle of the night in Glasgow (due to ULEZ no longer at his door so he usually has a 2 mile walk with all his kit) then head home, all on one tank of fuel. The total journey split between motorway, dual carriageway, a and b roads i usually average 60 mph. This average is usually achieved by doing much or all of the M8 and M74 stretches at 80mph plus. This time off is very important to me and him,i want to spend every possible minute fishing hence the preference for no fuel stops. I've just found out how much range drops once you start driving over 60mph with a 250 mile range EV doing sub 100 miles if sitting between 90 and 100mph for a sustained period of time. I average mid to high 40's in my 1.6 turbo diesel that supposedly will do 70 mpg so given my driving style i would think range anxiety should rightfully be a concern for anyone that is travelling decent distances in a timely fashion.
Now that appears to be an edge case scenario but i personally know many anglers all doing the same thing, when it comes to competition angling i used to do even bigger mileages back in the day (in a hot hatch of all things) and they were all time sensitive at weekends. When you are already getting up at 4am to drive a couple of hundred miles it's a hard ask getting up earlier to cover the charging time. I can think of many people i know doing the same with recreational/competitive activities like mountain biking, gymnastics, boxing, moto crossing, road racing ,dog shows etc etc and they are all on a tight time schedule. This must amount to definitely tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands in the UK on a regular basis ? Yes the average annual usage might only be 8k or so, but within that 8k there are going to be enough long journeys for enough people to make a switch to EV an issue.
Given how small the UK is as a country i would say we are better placed in that regard for range issues than many other places. Having just returned from Portugal and spoken to a few people that had driven to the Algarve from northern Europe (2 camper vans and one car driving to an apartment they own) there are definitely going to be a lot of edge cases on the larger land masses. The distances people travel in the States for instance blow my mind with professional anglers driving 24 hrs plus (often in one hit outside of fuel stops, madness) and their hardcore attitude to competitive sports seeing them driving kids hundreds of miles to events, camps etc i can't see the 100% switch to electric in the developed world going smoothly, even over the decadal timescale we have at present.
From my own point of view one would make perfect sense for my wife and for many journeys we do as a family but it doesn't when it comes to my own personal use. I regularly do 400 to 500 mile fishing trips that involve finishing a shift at work, heading home, bite to eat, chuck gear in car, pick mate up 70 or so miles away in Glasgow then straight off to the first mark we intend to fish.
Usually fish ourselves to a standstill, back to car for kip (parking up somewhere quiet in the shade) get up,bite to eat then do the same for the next two days. Finish fishing, drop him off in the middle of the night in Glasgow (due to ULEZ no longer at his door so he usually has a 2 mile walk with all his kit) then head home, all on one tank of fuel. The total journey split between motorway, dual carriageway, a and b roads i usually average 60 mph. This average is usually achieved by doing much or all of the M8 and M74 stretches at 80mph plus. This time off is very important to me and him,i want to spend every possible minute fishing hence the preference for no fuel stops. I've just found out how much range drops once you start driving over 60mph with a 250 mile range EV doing sub 100 miles if sitting between 90 and 100mph for a sustained period of time. I average mid to high 40's in my 1.6 turbo diesel that supposedly will do 70 mpg so given my driving style i would think range anxiety should rightfully be a concern for anyone that is travelling decent distances in a timely fashion.
Now that appears to be an edge case scenario but i personally know many anglers all doing the same thing, when it comes to competition angling i used to do even bigger mileages back in the day (in a hot hatch of all things) and they were all time sensitive at weekends. When you are already getting up at 4am to drive a couple of hundred miles it's a hard ask getting up earlier to cover the charging time. I can think of many people i know doing the same with recreational/competitive activities like mountain biking, gymnastics, boxing, moto crossing, road racing ,dog shows etc etc and they are all on a tight time schedule. This must amount to definitely tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands in the UK on a regular basis ? Yes the average annual usage might only be 8k or so, but within that 8k there are going to be enough long journeys for enough people to make a switch to EV an issue.
Given how small the UK is as a country i would say we are better placed in that regard for range issues than many other places. Having just returned from Portugal and spoken to a few people that had driven to the Algarve from northern Europe (2 camper vans and one car driving to an apartment they own) there are definitely going to be a lot of edge cases on the larger land masses. The distances people travel in the States for instance blow my mind with professional anglers driving 24 hrs plus (often in one hit outside of fuel stops, madness) and their hardcore attitude to competitive sports seeing them driving kids hundreds of miles to events, camps etc i can't see the 100% switch to electric in the developed world going smoothly, even over the decadal timescale we have at present.
You slightly lost me at 'drive 70 miles to pick up my mate' followed by 'drop him off two miles from his front door because of ulez - he walks home with all his kit'.
This already sounds like a not ideal situation in a few ways! I suppose if you had an EV you would lose an hour or two charging it to make the 400-500 mile trip feasible, but also your mate would save the same time because you could actually return him home...
This already sounds like a not ideal situation in a few ways! I suppose if you had an EV you would lose an hour or two charging it to make the 400-500 mile trip feasible, but also your mate would save the same time because you could actually return him home...
I mean, I guess you could find somewhere within a 100 mile radius to fish instead?
And save trawling the country for a once or twice a year holiday where adding a few hours to the overall travel time is insignificant.
The whole “edge case” thing is only an argument if your livelihood depends on the edge case. You don’t “need” to go fishing hundreds of miles away with no stops, you choose to.
And save trawling the country for a once or twice a year holiday where adding a few hours to the overall travel time is insignificant.
The whole “edge case” thing is only an argument if your livelihood depends on the edge case. You don’t “need” to go fishing hundreds of miles away with no stops, you choose to.
paradigital said:
I mean, I guess you could find somewhere within a 100 mile radius to fish instead?
And save trawling the country for a once or twice a year holiday where adding a few hours to the overall travel time is insignificant.
The whole “edge case” thing is only an argument if your livelihood depends on the edge case. You don’t “need” to go fishing hundreds of miles away with no stops, you choose to.
Quite. Or just use the money saved on petrol for the other 95% of mileage to hire a diesel for the fishing trip. And maybe even pay off the ulez charge. If you've already had to set a radius of 70 miles to find a friend, the last thing you want to do is lose them by forcing them to cross town on foot carrying bags of fishing gear...And save trawling the country for a once or twice a year holiday where adding a few hours to the overall travel time is insignificant.
The whole “edge case” thing is only an argument if your livelihood depends on the edge case. You don’t “need” to go fishing hundreds of miles away with no stops, you choose to.
paradigital said:
I mean, I guess you could find somewhere within a 100 mile radius to fish instead?
And save trawling the country for a once or twice a year holiday where adding a few hours to the overall travel time is insignificant.
The whole “edge case” thing is only an argument if your livelihood depends on the edge case. You don’t “need” to go fishing hundreds of miles away with no stops, you choose to.
I work to live, not the other way around. Again this is my position but the only journeys more important on the roads than recreational ones are carried out by vehicles that have blue lights/blood bikes etc. Not many people die wishing they had spent more time working, no matter how much they enjoy their job.And save trawling the country for a once or twice a year holiday where adding a few hours to the overall travel time is insignificant.
The whole “edge case” thing is only an argument if your livelihood depends on the edge case. You don’t “need” to go fishing hundreds of miles away with no stops, you choose to.
TheDeuce said:
You slightly lost me at 'drive 70 miles to pick up my mate' followed by 'drop him off two miles from his front door because of ulez - he walks home with all his kit'.
This already sounds like a not ideal situation in a few ways! I suppose if you had an EV you would lose an hour or two charging it to make the 400-500 mile trip feasible, but also your mate would save the same time because you could actually return him home...
The 70 miles to pick said mate up is in the direction we are going fishing. Mate doesn't take long to walk home, ex rugby playing isleander that thinks getting the train to Arbroath in January in bad weather then spending two days and nights on the rocks fishing on his own is great fun. I still have the option of buying a ULEZ friendly ICE car with similar range although the thought of ad blue, dpf's and the other gubbins on them fills me with dread. The casual way an hour or two charging gets bandied about by some says to me the only time sensitive stuff they do is work related, hobbies etc or spirited driving don't seem to feature highly or is it the case of using other cars ?This already sounds like a not ideal situation in a few ways! I suppose if you had an EV you would lose an hour or two charging it to make the 400-500 mile trip feasible, but also your mate would save the same time because you could actually return him home...
The range issue didn't really seem that bad to me initially as i used to do a lot of miles on bikes, worst case scenario on a fireblade was sub 80 miles light to light and even sitting at more sensible speeds the range wasn't great. It's the charge time and how often charging will be required if going anywhere at a decent pace. I appreciate the opportunities for doing so may be limited in the south east but if you pick your times carefully it's fine up here.
Ideally having 3 cars would be the best option, electric car for my wife, fishing beater and a fun car but can't afford it. It would be great if i could use an electric car given i have access to free charging at work. In the not too distant future i will be too decrepit to do the type of fishing i do at the moment. Problem will be solved then,for me at least.
TheDeuce said:
Quite. Or just use the money saved on petrol for the other 95% of mileage to hire a diesel for the fishing trip. And maybe even pay off the ulez charge. If you've already had to set a radius of 70 miles to find a friend, the last thing you want to do is lose them by forcing them to cross town on foot carrying bags of fishing gear...
I tend to break fishing friends, he is the only one that has been able to handle the pace over the course of a year in the last ten years. Most of the other blokes i fished with my age have given up walking over 10 miles a day on open coast in the summer or climbing 200 ft cliffs in the winter on a regular basis.Neither of you fish, certainly not sea angling, huge amount of species to target throughout the year but many are location dependent. In recent years much of the big distances have been by guys from all over England including the south west coast travelling to north west Scotland fishing for Common Skate from the shore or travelling to the Shetlands for the excellent boat fishing.
In winter time my (mate from Glasgow gets train to me, that's another laugh. How anyone that needs to use the rail network for work in Scotland manages i have no idea) longest journeys are around 180 miles, only the odd one or two 350 to 400 miler, but then the heating is on, demisting when back at car etc and sat at 78mph to avoid a ticket from the average speed cameras south of Aberdeen, i'm thinking even that would be tight.
The answer at the moment for the many edge cases seems to be give up hobbies at the weekends/days off. Hopefully at the current rate of development this will all become a non issue in the not too distant future. Surely someone has to twig that a long range version of xyz with maybe 150hp and a normal 0-60 with maybe 110mph top speed might have a few buyers ?
blank said:
What's your normal routine outside of the fishing trips?
A PHEV could be a great solution. You could even run A/C / heating and power things from the HV battery when stopped.
20 mile round trip commute 14 days a month. 35 to 50 mile round trips collecting bait, usual days out with family etc. Think you might well be right there. Had never even considered that option A PHEV could be a great solution. You could even run A/C / heating and power things from the HV battery when stopped.
Is this more of an infrastructure issue than EV issue? Continental perspective: 500miles would mean two or three 15-minute charge/comfort/coffee breaks, with the battery at around 50% on arrival.
We have done at least half a dozen day trips 600mile range with an EV. No advance planning is needed beyond typing in the destination to the navigation before leaving the parking spot. But our definition of "timely manner" is fairly relaxed (a border crossing might take 5 minutes or 8 hours, so leaving the stopwatch home...).
I'm also wondering how long it will be possible to make plans that depend on exceeding the speed limit by a non-trivial margin, even in Scotland. Seeing how things have changed in France, Italy and (especially) Switzerland over the last 25 years, a car's ability to sit days on end at 100mph does not seem very relevant. Based on my limited experience, even in Germany it is not that important, at least if you drive during the day.
We have done at least half a dozen day trips 600mile range with an EV. No advance planning is needed beyond typing in the destination to the navigation before leaving the parking spot. But our definition of "timely manner" is fairly relaxed (a border crossing might take 5 minutes or 8 hours, so leaving the stopwatch home...).
I'm also wondering how long it will be possible to make plans that depend on exceeding the speed limit by a non-trivial margin, even in Scotland. Seeing how things have changed in France, Italy and (especially) Switzerland over the last 25 years, a car's ability to sit days on end at 100mph does not seem very relevant. Based on my limited experience, even in Germany it is not that important, at least if you drive during the day.
wc98 said:
TheDeuce said:
Quite. Or just use the money saved on petrol for the other 95% of mileage to hire a diesel for the fishing trip. And maybe even pay off the ulez charge. If you've already had to set a radius of 70 miles to find a friend, the last thing you want to do is lose them by forcing them to cross town on foot carrying bags of fishing gear...
I tend to break fishing friends, he is the only one that has been able to handle the pace over the course of a year in the last ten years. Most of the other blokes i fished with my age have given up walking over 10 miles a day on open coast in the summer or climbing 200 ft cliffs in the winter on a regular basis.Neither of you fish, certainly not sea angling, huge amount of species to target throughout the year but many are location dependent. In recent years much of the big distances have been by guys from all over England including the south west coast travelling to north west Scotland fishing for Common Skate from the shore or travelling to the Shetlands for the excellent boat fishing.
In winter time my (mate from Glasgow gets train to me, that's another laugh. How anyone that needs to use the rail network for work in Scotland manages i have no idea) longest journeys are around 180 miles, only the odd one or two 350 to 400 miler, but then the heating is on, demisting when back at car etc and sat at 78mph to avoid a ticket from the average speed cameras south of Aberdeen, i'm thinking even that would be tight.
The answer at the moment for the many edge cases seems to be give up hobbies at the weekends/days off. Hopefully at the current rate of development this will all become a non issue in the not too distant future. Surely someone has to twig that a long range version of xyz with maybe 150hp and a normal 0-60 with maybe 110mph top speed might have a few buyers ?
There's always a third way. Moving to EV isn't a hard 'either/or'.
TheDeuce said:
Quite. Or just use the money saved on petrol for the other 95% of mileage to hire a diesel for the fishing trip. And maybe even pay off the ulez charge. If you've already had to set a radius of 70 miles to find a friend, the last thing you want to do is lose them by forcing them to cross town on foot carrying bags of fishing gear...
The issue with this argument is that, in many cases, everyone would want to hire the diesel/petrol car at the same time. For plenty of people living in London a small EV would work well most of the time (assuming they can charge at home, or don’t mind popping out to charge), but for the times they want to travel further afield (Christmas, bank Holidays etc) the cost of renting a car is far from cheap.Just had a look and to hire a polo/golf size car over Christmas is £400 ish - wiping out a lot of the savings you’d get from an EV plus adding hassle.
I like the idea of an EV, but wouldn’t want one as my only vehicle.
survivalist said:
TheDeuce said:
Quite. Or just use the money saved on petrol for the other 95% of mileage to hire a diesel for the fishing trip. And maybe even pay off the ulez charge. If you've already had to set a radius of 70 miles to find a friend, the last thing you want to do is lose them by forcing them to cross town on foot carrying bags of fishing gear...
The issue with this argument is that, in many cases, everyone would want to hire the diesel/petrol car at the same time. For plenty of people living in London a small EV would work well most of the time (assuming they can charge at home, or don’t mind popping out to charge), but for the times they want to travel further afield (Christmas, bank Holidays etc) the cost of renting a car is far from cheap.Just had a look and to hire a polo/golf size car over Christmas is £400 ish - wiping out a lot of the savings you’d get from an EV plus adding hassle.
I like the idea of an EV, but wouldn’t want one as my only vehicle.
Or to be honest, the OP could just have an EV and make it work. There's no way they're doing 500 miles and at no point getting close to a high speed charger - even in the Highlands.
TheDeuce said:
Of course hiring another car wipes out 'a lot' of the savings. But that's the point! Savings have been made, so hire the perfect car once or twice a year.
Or to be honest, the OP could just have an EV and make it work. There's no way they're doing 500 miles and at no point getting close to a high speed charger - even in the Highlands.
But an ICE car works just fine all of the time, without having to book and collect a hire car. ‘Making it work’ is too much hassle for the majority of people when the the thing they have already works.Or to be honest, the OP could just have an EV and make it work. There's no way they're doing 500 miles and at no point getting close to a high speed charger - even in the Highlands.
survivalist said:
TheDeuce said:
Of course hiring another car wipes out 'a lot' of the savings. But that's the point! Savings have been made, so hire the perfect car once or twice a year.
Or to be honest, the OP could just have an EV and make it work. There's no way they're doing 500 miles and at no point getting close to a high speed charger - even in the Highlands.
But an ICE car works just fine all of the time, without having to book and collect a hire car. ‘Making it work’ is too much hassle for the majority of people when the the thing they have already works.Or to be honest, the OP could just have an EV and make it work. There's no way they're doing 500 miles and at no point getting close to a high speed charger - even in the Highlands.
Personally I don't think an annual fishing trip should be a deciding factor in terms of what a person wants to drive... but I accept the fishing trip (uncle brin) may be super important.
All I have said is to take the EV savings and spend some of them on a convenient car for the fishing trip. What's wrong with that?
TheDeuce said:
survivalist said:
TheDeuce said:
Of course hiring another car wipes out 'a lot' of the savings. But that's the point! Savings have been made, so hire the perfect car once or twice a year.
Or to be honest, the OP could just have an EV and make it work. There's no way they're doing 500 miles and at no point getting close to a high speed charger - even in the Highlands.
But an ICE car works just fine all of the time, without having to book and collect a hire car. ‘Making it work’ is too much hassle for the majority of people when the the thing they have already works.Or to be honest, the OP could just have an EV and make it work. There's no way they're doing 500 miles and at no point getting close to a high speed charger - even in the Highlands.
Personally I don't think an annual fishing trip should be a deciding factor in terms of what a person wants to drive... but I accept the fishing trip (uncle brin) may be super important.
All I have said is to take the EV savings and spend some of them on a convenient car for the fishing trip. What's wrong with that?
I’d suggest that the majority of car buyers don’t really care - if they did we wouldn’t have to many dull / slow vehicles on the road.
For most the deciding factors are cost and convenience. IMO the majority of people choosing EV are doing so because of a significant cost saving, typically in the form a a tax related benefit. For the average private / used buyer the benefits are pretty minimal.
It’s also hard to ignore that people will usually pay a premium for convenience. Renting a car for long journeys rather than using the one you have isn’t very convenient.
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